Talk:Barbara's Rhubarb Bar

Related discussion
Discussion about early stages of the page is at User talk:Tryptofish. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:35, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

More sources
Adding them here. Viriditas (talk) 00:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this. I don't read German, so I'm going to wait and see what the DYK review brings up. (I've seen your discussion with a DYK admin, so I'm aware of it. It's also someone I've been having sharp words with lately, so I'm not sure how serious the concerns are.) I'm reluctant to put a bunch of non-English sources in a "Further reading" section without being able to tell the reader why this is worth reading further. And I would have to know what issues there may be with the current sources in order to start figuring out whether or not to add any of these as replacements. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * They are automatically translated into English in my browser. It might be helpful to set that up if you haven’t already. My point is that if you have any unreliable sources, they can easily be replaced with these. The second point that has not yet been addressed is the notability concern, which I think is easily countered. I will attempt to do so here tomorrow if you don’t get to it first. Viriditas (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention: the main points raised in the paywalled Wirsching 2024 article are viewable in the Rheinische Post article.  That’s good news. Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the admin, I wouldn’t ascribe any bias to them. They do good work, and are equally critical.  They also said they liked your hook, so that’s some praise, if you ask me.  Don’t read anything into it.  Their concern with notability is likely to reflect other opinions, so it’s always good to be proactive and address these things before the nominator gets to it. I understand, of course, that you may have a different approach.  I think the easiest way to "solve" the notability issue is to reframe the entire article in his historical context instead of as a singular viral video.  Some of the new sources up above mention that context. In other words, the larger topic has existed for years as a German tongue twister and only recently became a viral video and song. Reframe the article to make that clear. Viriditas (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That reframing is a helpful idea. That's worth my thinking about, seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've done some edits in that direction. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this. I don't read German, so I'm going to wait and see what the DYK review brings up. (I've seen your discussion with a DYK admin, so I'm aware of it. It's also someone I've been having sharp words with lately, so I'm not sure how serious the concerns are.) I'm reluctant to put a bunch of non-English sources in a "Further reading" section without being able to tell the reader why this is worth reading further. And I would have to know what issues there may be with the current sources in order to start figuring out whether or not to add any of these as replacements. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * They are automatically translated into English in my browser. It might be helpful to set that up if you haven’t already. My point is that if you have any unreliable sources, they can easily be replaced with these. The second point that has not yet been addressed is the notability concern, which I think is easily countered. I will attempt to do so here tomorrow if you don’t get to it first. Viriditas (talk) 01:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention: the main points raised in the paywalled Wirsching 2024 article are viewable in the Rheinische Post article.  That’s good news. Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the admin, I wouldn’t ascribe any bias to them. They do good work, and are equally critical.  They also said they liked your hook, so that’s some praise, if you ask me.  Don’t read anything into it.  Their concern with notability is likely to reflect other opinions, so it’s always good to be proactive and address these things before the nominator gets to it. I understand, of course, that you may have a different approach.  I think the easiest way to "solve" the notability issue is to reframe the entire article in his historical context instead of as a singular viral video.  Some of the new sources up above mention that context. In other words, the larger topic has existed for years as a German tongue twister and only recently became a viral video and song. Reframe the article to make that clear. Viriditas (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That reframing is a helpful idea. That's worth my thinking about, seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've done some edits in that direction. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention: the main points raised in the paywalled Wirsching 2024 article are viewable in the Rheinische Post article.  That’s good news. Viriditas (talk) 02:06, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * As for the admin, I wouldn’t ascribe any bias to them. They do good work, and are equally critical.  They also said they liked your hook, so that’s some praise, if you ask me.  Don’t read anything into it.  Their concern with notability is likely to reflect other opinions, so it’s always good to be proactive and address these things before the nominator gets to it. I understand, of course, that you may have a different approach.  I think the easiest way to "solve" the notability issue is to reframe the entire article in his historical context instead of as a singular viral video.  Some of the new sources up above mention that context. In other words, the larger topic has existed for years as a German tongue twister and only recently became a viral video and song. Reframe the article to make that clear. Viriditas (talk) 02:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * That reframing is a helpful idea. That's worth my thinking about, seriously. --Tryptofish (talk) 02:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've done some edits in that direction. Thanks. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Dutch origin
The currently popular version of "Barbara's Rhubarb Bar" is a German music video. Everyone writes, as does this article, that it is a German tongue twister, and the press is looking for a German cultural background. However, I first heard the story of Barbara's Rhubarb Bar and the Barbarians from a Dutchman in 1978. In Dutch, the "r" is pronounced even harder than in German, which gives the story even more impact. I found Dutch forum posts about Rabarberbarbara from the year 2000 onwards. There is also a German news source (from Bayerischer Rundfunk; Google translation) that can be used for this article that points to a Dutch origin: a cartoon by Dutch cartoonist Evert Geradts from 1991. Unfortunately, they did not follow up on this Dutch lead. Instead, they cite similar tongue twisters from the ancient Romans, which were found on walls in Pompeii. Sitacuisses (talk) 02:59, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this information. I have added it to the page. I don't think we have sufficiently reliable sourcing to make a strong statement about the origin, but the Dutch cartoon is well-sourced. --Tryptofish (talk) 16:44, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe the lead section needs to be updated as well. The Dutch version isn't the "also-ran", but rather the first modern version documented, at least to our current knowledge. It's a tounge twister not only in German, but in some Germanic languages, which achieved current fame through a German song. And it was somehow preceded by the Pompeiian graffito "barbara barbaribus barbabant barbara barbis" that has been documented since the 19th century (CIL IV 4235 8436). --Sitacuisses (talk) 21:35, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I want to also add, mostly for Tryptofish's benefit, that the Google translation on that article is terrible.  Deutsche Welle is using a large portion of this cited article in their own work, and PressReader, my institutional library app, uses a more professional and elegant form of translation.  Tryptofish may likely have access to this kind of seamless translation through their own institutions, whether it is academic or library. Viriditas (talk) 21:43, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, both of you. After looking into this, I've concluded that we have reliable sourcing for tongue twisters about barbarians dating back at least to Pompeii, and I've added that, citing a scholarly source. As for whether the rhubarb versions in later Germanic languages started in German or in Dutch, we have reliable sourcing for versions in both languages, but we would need stronger sourcing to assert that there were no German versions prior to the Dutch comic strip. To simply conclude that the Dutch comic is the earliest modern occurrence is WP:OR. The internet phenomenon that has made the topic notable for purposes of the English Wikipedia is centered on German versions, and that's where I believe the WP:DUE weight should remain for now. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:29, 27 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I've heard this tongue twister as a kid in the Netherlands in the 1990s. When I saw this article on the Did you know page I decided to have a look into the origins. It's hard to say if the tongue twister is originally Dutch or German. A short version seems to have started in Germany, which was copied and expanded in the Netherlands, which was then copied back into Germany. In 1981 it did feature in a very popular work of language play in the Netherlands, so I think it is safe to say it is both a German and a Dutch tongue twister.
 * The first appearence of any variant I could find is from 1915, Rhabarberbarbaren in the Neue Oberhausener Zeitung, in an apparently serious news article about vandalism of rhubarb gardens
 * Then in 1930 on the joke page of a few newspapers in the Ruhr area. A doctor prescribes a boy rhubarb, the boy calls the docter a Rhabarberbarbar
 * Ca. 1935 the first Dutch appearance Rabarberbarabarbarbierbarbaren. This is the earliest long version I could find, adding Barbara, a barber and a bar
 * 1950: A few regional newspapers from the Netherlands mention 'Rabarber Barbara's bierbar barbaren baarden barbier' on their joke pages. First appearance of beer and beards.
 * 1950: Libelle, a Dutch woman's magazine, has an article rhubarb recipies and mentions the tongue twister in its introduction. Apparently suggesting that it was a familiar joke at this point
 * 1954: Het Parool (Dutch) mentions Rabarberbarbarabar and claims it's originally an American joke
 * 1957: Het Vaderland (Dutch) and a few regional newspapers mention rabarberbarbara
 * 1981 Hugo Brandt Corstius (Dutch) in Opperlands mentions Barbararabarberbararabierenbarbarenbaardenbarbier adding Arab. This book was a cult hit so it's safe to say that the joke became widely known in the Netherlands at this point
 * On Feb 22 1991 the kid's page of NRC (Dutch) asks for long words with repeated syllables. Winner on Mar 8 is one Frank de Ruyter with rabarberbarbarabarrebarbarenbar who says he read the joke somewhere else. The May 1991 Donald Duck appearance was probably stolen from/inspired by the one in NRC.
 * Mentioning all of this would probably violate WP:OR, but I did add some relevant finds in the article space. Mixcoatl (talk) 22:18, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Great work. I would encourage you to add what you can, within reason, using the best sources. Viriditas (talk) 22:25, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I just found another one. In 1950: Libelle, a Dutch woman's magazine, has an article rhubarb recipies and refers the tongue twister in its introduction without even spelling it out completely. The tongue twister must have been widely known at that point. Should we remove the part about the 1991 Disney Comic and NRC? We've already established that the joke was fairly widespread in the Netherlands since at least the 1950s, which makes the 1991 appearances quite trivial. Opperlands was a popular book and the 1954 Parool article mentions a possible origin, so it would make sense to keep those references in. Mixcoatl (talk) 22:45, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't know the answer, but use your best judgment and highlight the most important and significant material. My guess is it would make sense to note at least one appearance in each decade, but there's many different ways to do it.  Play around and experiment. Viriditas (talk) 22:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * There's a lot here for me to take in. When I started the page, I was working mainly off of secondary sources about the German phenomenon of the song and videos. But it's reasonable that the page should also cover the tongue twister as it developed over time. My gut reaction is that the recent changes should not be overly long, ie, they may need to be shortened, and in being selective about what to include, we should be careful to avoid WP:OR, perhaps relying more on secondary sources about the tongue twister and its history, rather than on primary sources. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:13, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Speaking of secondary sources, I added a new one here for use. Viriditas (talk) 23:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think that there is a question that is important to answer, and I'm especially interested in whether editors familiar with sources in German and Dutch can advise on it. It's one thing to find Dutch sources in which the tongue twister appeared a long time ago. But that's not the same thing as having determined that there weren't also German sources from the same time, or even earlier. I'm not sure whether the revisions to the page are reflecting a POV resulting from having looked selectively for early Dutch versions. Ideally, I'd like to see secondary sources that aren't coming from any kind of nationalistic perspective, that speak to the timeline. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Even more sources
These could be used to source a few cultural references: that the final stanza is a Rhabarberbarbara themed version of Drei Chinesen mit dem Kontrabass, that Barbara compares the barbarians to Barbapapa and that "Aberakadabera" is a song by Austrian band Erste Allgemeine Verunsicherung from their album Café Passé. —Kusma (talk) 20:58, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 


 * I originally added the Stern source up above in the "More sources" section last week. We should use it. Viriditas (talk) 21:20, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry I missed that! I was mostly trying to find something about the connection to Drei Chinesen mit dem Kontrabass. —Kusma (talk) 21:34, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I can't speak for Tryptofish, but given that German is your native language, we could really use your help here. Viriditas (talk) 22:23, 28 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you both very much. As it happens, this is one time when Viriditas can speak for me, because it's true that I don't read German, and I would greatly appreciate Kusma's advice on this. I think that all of the points made here by Kusma are worth adding to the page, as long as I can understand how to source it. Although I can try to apply Google Translate to the sources, I would be a lot more comfortable having another editor guide me as to what they can be cited for. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:55, 29 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @Tryptofish, sorry, I was occupied with other things. I'll try to help, hopefully this week (unless I forget again, then I would appreciate a ping). —Kusma (talk) 08:29, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Shared etymology
The article claims that the words for "Barbara", "rhubarb", "barbarian", and "barber" in Germanic languages all come from the Ancient Greek βάρβαρος. However one of these appeared immediately suspect, and I can find nothing that suggests a connection between the English, Dutch, or German (the three Germanic languages mentioned in the section) for "barber" (barbier and Barbier) and this Ancient Greek etymon. All seem to take the route PIE > Latin > French > X, ultimately originating from. Further more the Dutch word barbier appears to be marginal in the use described with kapper appearing to be the primary term (I do not speak Dutch). Which brings me to my other concern here, the other 3 words appear to share the described Ancient Greek etymon in English, German, and Dutch but the article appears to claim that this is true in all Germanic languages. It would seem likely that at least one of the Germanic languages would have a non-cognate word for one of the three English words here (excluding Barbara which must be cognate otherwise it can hardly be considered the same name); as mentioned, the Dutch barbier is already a stretch. This is the sort of claim that really needs a citation. AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 12:36, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Any chance you can salvage it with some basic modifications, add a pendantic footnote pointing to what you found, and remove the tag? Viriditas (talk) 22:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I might well have been mistaken to word it in terms of all Germanic languages. All that would really matter would be German, and apparently, Dutch. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:04, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * If one looks at the sources cited for the sentence, one of them does assert the shared origin for "Barbara". As for "barber", I'm pretty sure it's related to words for "beard", and that there's a history for associating barbarians with beards. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:22, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

It turns out that the origins of "Barbara", "barbarian", and "rhubarb" can be reliably sourced as the page describes them, whereas "barber" derives instead from the Latin word for beard. I have fixed this, with further sourcing, in this edit:, and I trust this can put the matter to rest. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:54, 17 July 2024 (UTC)