Talk:Baritone/Archive 1

Untitled
I removed the following text, temporarily, because it seemed a bit incomplete and unrelated to anything else.

Distribution and Division
There is a continuous distribution of many measurable characteristics, including characteristics such as height, weight and shoe size. Male vocal range is similarly distributed. Therefore the baritone voice, being in the middle of the distribution, is the most common. In eighteenth century and earlier choral music the range of male voices was typically separated into only two divisions - tenor and bass. For example Handel's Messiah has tenors and basses in the choruses and a tenor and a bass soloist. When composers wished for further complexity, they usually sub-divided the male voices into four parts with 1st and 2nd tenors and 1st and 2nd basses. The modern concept of a baritone is largely the result of late nineteenth century opera composers dividing the male vocal range not into two or four parts but three: tenor, baritone, and bass.

Recent Edits
I don't want to start reverting, and I agree that there was some work that needed to be done, but "Greatly expanded" doesn't jive with what 70.177.206.148 did by wiping out almost the entire article. Should we readd stuf? RasputinAXP 04:54, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Removal of almost the whole article in my opinion is tantamount to vandalism, and I am going to do my best to re-instate it. I will have to do this without reversion, because it looks like we've progressed too far since the WIPEOUT occurred. Brequinda 13:26, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC) Now that I've looked at the history of the article, I believe that the LAST GOOD version was the one before 18:44 29/Apr/05. This revision (by RasputinAXP) left us with but a shadow of the former glorious article. I think whoever 70.177.206.148 is, he is not to blame for the WIPEOUT, because his revision was trying to restore some sense and order. Brequinda 13:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can't we just take the "good" post-29/Apr revision material and insert it into the Last Good? RasputinAXP 11:50, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I believe that is what I've now done, by combining whatever was 'current' with the wiped last good version. Brequinda 13:09, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As with the 'tenor' entry, what is popular music? Anyway, the list is a mess. I never knew Mike Oldfield is a noted baritone. Anyway, I am moving to include Roger Whittaker. Any objection? --Free Citizen 12:15, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't particularly care. I'm working on a major rewrite of the article at Baritone/temp right now. RasputinAXP   c  [[Image:Gadsden_flag.svg|25px]] 16:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I care. I think putting Whitaker in a separate category all his own is nonsensical. He's a popular singer. The meaning of that category is not controversial. He doesn't sing opera or lieder, he sings popular music, just as Frank Sinatra did and Chris Cornell does. I strongly resist the notion of creating more categories than that.Fnarf999 03:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
 * PS - RasputinAXP, your draft looks very nice; it may be too coherent, well-written and well-laid-out for Wikipedia, though! Fnarf999 03:20, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Johnny Cash
Someone has been busy here and on the tenor page putting comments like this - actually a countertenor/bass-baritone/whatever/mainstream tenor after the singer's name. When you know someone's listed in the wrong range, feel free to move them! I've taken care of these ones (Johnny Cash was already listed under bass-baritones) but next time, help yourself. :-) Thanks! Danypo

Real Baritones?
I would dispute Josh Groban and Huey Lewis's inclusion on this list; even though they have darker timbres, both have sung in the tenor range frequently (on Groban's latest album, he sings many B-flats, and has said he believes he is a tenor. Huey Lewis frequently sang above the staff in his pop songs and sings a few full-voice high C's in "The Power of Love"). Perhaps, at least, they belong in the baritenor listing? Woodson 17:12, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd tend to agree with your assessment of Josh Groban. Huey Lewis, though...I'm not sure. Lately he's sounded like a baritone, though that could just be due to age catching up. RasputinAXP   talk  *  contribs  17:46, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * You will always have this kind of discussions, because the vocal ranges as we know them in classical music cannot easily be applied to pop singers. There are several reasons for this:
 * many pop singers have not benefited from any formal training and use their voices more or less instinctively, which means that the vocal range may be somewhat shifting;
 * the voice can be electronically enhanced or altered;
 * the voice evolves over time (this also applies to classical singers);
 * the voice is always amplified, whereas classical singers are trained to sing in large halls without amplification.
 * The normal voice range for a male is baritone, so most male pop singers will be baritones, but as their voices are amplified, it will be easier for them to reach higher notes without forcing their voice. Real tenors are rare, and I don't think there are many pop singers who are real tenors. - Karl Stas 21:30, 22 August 2005 (UTC)


 * True, but there are certain pop singers who quite clearly have little to no lower range that I would more easily classify as baritenor or tenor (as much as I hate the word "baritenor"). If we start going in that direction, though, we start wiping pop singers out of vocal calssifications entirely. RasputinAXP   talk  *  contribs  23:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Re Josh Groban's inclusion as a baritone: his lower register is baritone range, and according to him he hopes to be a tenor as his voice matures. In other words, he's working on it, but the high notes on his latest album are only G's & A flats, which are baritone high notes, as far as I know. :-) Danypo
 * For what it's worth, Josh Groban's range as of the Chess Benefit Concert he performed in circa 2003 was to a B4... a VERY high note for a baritone. He sings it in the song 'The Interview'.  He also manages to hit a F#2 earlier in the show, indicating his range is well over 2 octaves. <<<<The preceeding unsigned comment was left by 70.31.27.49, whose only other contribution was a similar anonymous blurb regarding Michael Buble on the tenor talk page.

Nobody's denying his range. He's got a great range. Please just sign in to save me a little work, okay? :-) Danypo 14:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Verdi Baritone
The designation "Verdi Baritone" is absurd, especially applied to Puccini's character, Scarpia. Furthermore anyone familiar with "" La Traviata"" would be hard pressed to consider the character, Germont, as a cold blooded villain.

Proliferation of roles and singers
Lately there's been a good sized proliferation of roles and singers (both pop and classical) being added to the article and it's quickly turning into a list. I'm going to take a shot at editing the page back down to something that approximates a real article as opposed to what it is now. RasputinAXP 03:56, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Artificially Enhanced Range?
This is kind of minor, but correct me if I'm wrong: I don't believe the autotune effect changes the RANGE of the singer. It just rounds the pitch of the singer to the nearest semitone or so, right? Either way, that external link in the note right under the "popular music" heading doesn't state that autotune does what that note claims it can. Agreed? Domokato 14:51, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no way to realistically "artificially enhance" vocal range. I suppose it could be done...but even with modern day granular based pitchshifting it cannot with ANY degree of transparency. Additionally it is perfectualy reputable to deduce the range of any singer (pop, classical, or anything) by considering their lowest and highest recorded notes. Voice quality is a bit more subjective, BUT not more subjective than in the classical world! I don't consider Fischer-Dieskau a baritone because he and his agents told me so, I consider him a baritone because of what I've heard come out of his mouth in song. I'm deleting the entire comment from the page. Jmejia 23:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Chris Cornell
Let me start by saying I found your text on the Baritone very informative. However, in my opinion there is a mistake in the 'popular vocalist' category. Chris Cornell is not a baritone but a tenor. I'm not familiar with the names of the notes on the piano, but compared to the guitar, the lowest note I've ever heard him sing is a C on the low E string and the highest note is D on the high E string (14th fret). This would make him a tenor with a range of just over 3 octaves. Michiel de Boorder (michieldeboorder@hotmail.com)
 * Wouldn't a D on the high E string be the 10th fret? Or do you mean an F#? Just clarifying =) -Domokato 17:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Domokato, you are completely right. Stupid error on my part. And, for that matter, another one (one sentence earlier I typed C where I meant G). Thanks for pointing this out. Here is what I actually wanted to say:


 * Lol. He's a baritone. His lowest notes are F#2's. Listen to the guy speak ;)--Manboobies 23:04, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I just had to back up this with proof Listen to him talk, solid c3's (gorgeously deep perfectly pitched c3's the guy knows exactly what notes he's speaking in) then he goes "at this point in our lives, in our careers, um, it was great for me to..." that um is a perfectly, and I MEAN perfectly pitched G2. I think he let it slip by accident, it was a subconcious thing, but yes, then man is gifted with a perfectly pitched lustrous voice, but he is not a tenor. A great counter tenor perhaps, a baritone definately, a wonderful singer, almost certainly, but not a tenor.--Manboobies 23:21, 3 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Manboobies, thank you very much for laughing out loud, but despite your proof of Chris Cornell's being a baritone, I still disagree with you. And here's why:

You are right that mr. Cornell is capable of producing notes in the baritone region. The fact that he is also capable of singing very high up into the tenor range is just the result of his having an insanely wide vocal range. Ergo, we've established the fact that he is both a tenor and a baritone. The reason why I'd rather classify him as a tenor is because in the majority of his vocal performances he uses the notes in the tenor region. The lower notes are rarities. So, instead of defining his singing voice by sample containing speech, I'd rather use his singing as a measure of his voice type. I still reckon Chris Cornell a tenor.

Michiel de Boorder

Chris Cornell
Let me start by saying I found your text on the Baritone very informative. However, in my opinion there is a mistake in the 'popular vocalist' category. Chris Cornell is not a baritone but a tenor. I'm not familiar with the names of the notes on the piano, but compared to the guitar, the lowest note I've ever heard him sing is a G on the low E string and the highest note is F# on the high E string (14th fret). This would make him a tenor with a range of just over 3 octaves. Michiel de Boorder (michieldeboorder@hotmail.com)

Baritenor
I think Alejandro Fernandez is a baritenor. He usually sings above Baritone range. Myke 03:19, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

The Lion King
Could you folks make some comments here about whether or not these Lion King roles belong in this article or not, instead of just going back and forth with the revert war? That would be awesome. Thanks. \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 01:00, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Um, Layne Staley should be removed from the baritone list. He's a tenor.