Talk:Barlow Road

Additional info needed from these sources
If anyone has access to the following (all of which are cited for additional information in Oregon Geographic Names), it would really help this article:


 * Oregon Historical Quarterly, v. 13, p. 287 (published by the Oregon Historical Society)
 * Oregon Historical Quarterly, v. 13, p. 240
 * Palmer, Joel. Journal of Travels Over the Rocky Mountains, pp. 62-83
 * Sunday Oregonian, magazine section, May 29, 1938

— Twisted86 - Talk - at 06:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Map
A map would be a great addition too. Katr67 14:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I authored and included a detailed map. The commons page has some explanation for it, such as the contour shading, which is sufficient to show the genius of the route:  it avoids the highest ridges and peaks nicely.  I welcome comments on how to further improve it.  I'd post the Photoshop source so others may tinker with it, but uploading that format is not accepted.
 * I obtained route information from two sources: Google maps—which traces the route west of the crest to almost Government Camp, then again from Rhododendron to west of Brightwood—and from USGS topo maps which show the route east of the crest, to three miles from Wamic.  The elevation and stream data are all from USGS topo maps. —EncMstr 08:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Excellent! This map is a major improvement, thanks for taking the time to do that. A few observations: I can help with this work if you like, my email is first@firstlast.com (sorry, wary of spam harvesters, but you should be able to figure that out!) -Pete 18:33, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe the portion to the west of the White River is depicted a little too close to the river. The road (intact in that section) goes through an adjacent valley, with a large ridge separating it from the river.
 * Also, I think that the section near Sandy is a bit too close to the Salmon River. The road followed what is now Marmot Road, along the crest of the "Devil's Backbone." This is north of both the Salmon and the Sandy Rivers.
 * Near that same location, Lake Roslyn should probably be removed. It didn't exist 1n 1845, and it won't exist after next year either.
 * The simplified relief lines are very helpful. In particular, I notice that the Lolo Pass route angles even more sharply toward the present-day city of Hood River than I'd thought. I have yet to get back to reading Palmer's journal, but I'm still very skeptical that they would have gone all the way around the mountain to take that road.
 * There are large, empty spaces on the map, and all the words are very tiny. I'd like to see the words enlarged a great deal, esp. on major landmarks like Mt. Hood, certain rivers, Lolo Pass, etc.


 * Thanks for the feedback!
 * Along the west bank of the White River, USGS topo maps shows the road right there, until it turns NW at Barlow Creek. (see this, but terraserver is biffed right now)
 * You are correct about the Marmot Road—I did attempt to follow it, but at the scale I plotted it from, USGS didn't show the road, so it's estimated. That seemed to be the less important portion of the road as it officially ended at Tollgate near Rhododendron, didn't it?
 * Crest of Devil's backbone? I understood that from information at Jonsrud Point, the road was in the valley to its north.  Also, the historical society map shows it north of it.  Now that I look at that again, maybe it is meant to go over it....  Other parts where there is more independent information indicates that map to be more impressionistic/artistic than rigorous.
 * The names are huge when viewed in its native scale. What resolution are you viewing it?  I contemplated making versions for thumbnail and for full size display.  Do you have any suggestions for resolving that?
 * —EncMstr 19:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Re: White River, you're right, I was misreading the map. The portion I was thinking of was the Barlow Creek portion, but I was looking at the section just south of that.
 * Marmot Road still exists, I just drove along it last month. My impression is that the valley to the north (the Little Sandy River) would be thick and impossible to navigate…what is the Jonsrud Point information you're referring to? The book I have (the Clackamas Cty. one) says that "most" travelers went along the Marmot Road. I don't know about the "official" end being at Tollgate. The book says there were several toll gates used at different times, in different locations. I thought it was "officially" the Barlow Road all the way from Tygh to Oregon City -- but you may know something I don't.
 * In my opinion, it's important that the map be useful at (1) the resolution viewed in the article, (2) the resolution on the "preview" page (800px wide), and (3) full resolution. I think major features such as Mt. Hood, Tygh Valley, White River, Camp Creek, The Dalles should be visible from the article page. Other features (Lost Lake, Bull Run Lake, Lolo Pass, (some of) the other rivers) should probably be in smaller text, legible only at full resolution.
 * -Pete 01:47, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Photos
A photo of some the wagon ruts would be excellent, too. — Twisted86 - Talk - at 08:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Sections
This article needs some sections. Here's a few suggestions.

Amen on this---with respect the east sideRvannatta 01:31, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Blazing and construction of the road
 * Route followed
 * I've found a few tidbits and have begun a "Route" section. —EncMstr 07:57, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Impact on settlement of Willamette Valley
 * Enduring legacy

-Pete 21:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Relative expense of Barlow Road
Someone added this to the article:
 * Many emigrants who traveled the Oregon Trail could not afford to use the Barlow Toll Road, and instead floated down the Columbia River to get to Oregon City.

I'm having trouble resolving this with the data I've encountered, so it's removed from the article unless someone can substantiate it. Many of the bridges and ferries before the Barlow Road had toll charges of about the same price. For example, to cross the Deschutes, Sherar's Bridge charged $7.75 for a party including S. B. Eakin, and Olney's ferry charged $3 per wagon. References in the article give the price of a boat ride down the Columbia to be anywhere from $50 to $80. I suppose the really poor might build a raft and float, but I haven't seen anything written like that. —EncMstr 05:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think you're probably right to remove that. The book I have ("Barlow Road") notes 5 locations for the toll gate, which apparently moved around a few times; it has at least one anecdote about people trying to avoid the toll gates, and another story about an overweight Indian woman getting stuck in the toll gate and the hilarity that ensued. I find no mention of people trying to evade this toll more than any other, though, or choosing the Columbia for that reason. -Pete 06:05, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

What hasn't been picked up is how the use of the road evolved over time. It was one thing in the early years, but as time went on first a short railroad was built around Cascade locks, and ultimately a railroad all the way through, well before the toll road ceased. It's end matches about the time the Columbia River highway was opened.Rvannatta 06:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent points. A chronology of those sort of events would be a fine addition.  A reference which says one caused the other would be excellent:  know of any?  —EncMstr 06:25, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent points indeed! I think it can be written in a way that suggests a connection, without strongly asserting it. (Of course, if there is such a reference, it should definitely be noted.) -Pete 06:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Couldn't they caulk the wagon and float it down? Heh heh. --NE2 10:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Question about the photo
Is the Barlow Road behind or to the left? The angle of the sign makes it unclear. --NE2 10:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I think it is to the right, where it says "weight limit 5 tons" and "one mile ahead". —EncMstr 03:26, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Confusion about blazing of trail
this web site tells the story of the blazing of the trail, which I've seen repeated in several places. But I can't understand how this jives with the geography:

Following an Indian trail, Barlow managed to get his wagons about halfway around the mountain before being forced to admit defeat. At the crest of the Cascade Mountains, Joel Palmer climbed the glacier now named for him and scouted a route off the mountain. Palmer saw that there was little chance of getting the wagons through, so the party sent some of their wagons back to The Dalles and cached the rest of their possessions at a spot they christened Fort Deposit. Most of the party and their livestock was able to enter the Willamette Valley by following the Lolo Pass Trail, an old Indian trail around the northwest flank of Mt. Hood that was too narrow and steep to allow wagons to pass. Thus free to proceed on foot, Palmer, Barlow, and Barlow's eldest son attempted to walk off the mountain.

The Barlow Road crosses the south side of Mt. Hood, and Lolo Pass is way around the north side. I can't imagine how Lolo Pass could have helped them get around the mountain in any way, it would have led them in totally the wrong direction (back toward Hood River), and would have been more treacherous than the present Barlow Road, it wouldn't have led them toward Oregon City, and it wouldn't have allowed them to "blaze" the trail that became the Barlow Road. Finally, Lolo Pass is not visible from Palmer Glacier, which is on the south side of Mt. Hood.

Anyone know what to make of this? -Pete 17:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know for sure, but I've thought about this a lot. Have a look at this map.  Point B is on modern Lolo Pass.  As you can see, it's on the northwest side.  Out of they way?  Yes.  But a considerably easier walk than wandering through the Salmon River canyon.  Assuming they were stuck near Barlow Pass (pt. D), a hike to Palmer Glacier is about half way to Lolo pass, and relatively passable compared to the lower level forest.


 * A trail named Lolo Pass might have connected to the pass—or may not have—but more than likely, they would have left any trail going that way and walked along the Sandy River in the relatively tame area marked by "F" which leads to the route of Hwy 26. In any case, from Zigzag Glacier, it is a lot easier to see the Sandy River than highway 26, so I expect they would have gone with the evil they could see rather than somewhere they couldn't.  Furthermore, I suspect that Barlow's route didn't follow his and Palmer's original crossing very faithfully.  First, they probably couldn't find it—consider how little visibility Mount Hood has when driving to it.  Secondly, they probably didn't like the original crossing route much.  Third, going the reverse direction—after a winter snowpack—it would look very different anyway, and be all that much more difficult to find.  Something in Joel Palmer's journal made me think that they came from a very different direction closer to Hood River (river).


 * As for visibility, it's more likely they were on Zigzag Glacier to get a good look westward, something I came across researching that article. —EncMstr 18:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm, I thought the labels were stable. Following the link above, Point C is now Lolo Pass and point E is Barlow Pass. —EncMstr 19:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I read that a little differently,  i.e. that they tried to go around the south side,  failed, and retreated back around to the east side where the party split--- some returning to the Dalles and some taking Lolo pass around the north side.

Logic tells me that they had some knowledge of Lolo pass before doing what they did, as sort of out of the box one would think and assume that a northern route would be easier than trying to go all the way around the south side of the mountain. Implicit in their actions was knowledge that they knew of the northern route, but rejected it initially in hopes of an easier route on the south.Rvannatta 03:45, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've spent the last two hours reading Palmer's Journals (see pages 125–143). Palmer never mentions the name of the trail he heard about from Indians.  He knew only that it went between the Willamette Valley and the Deschutes River and was a dozen or so miles north of Tygh Creek.  Additional description seems to place it somewhere between Government Camp and Zigzag Canyon, as he crossed it at least four times in October 1845.  There isn't any suggestion it goes north of the mountain, just east-west across the south flank.  I have some edits for the article in the works incorporating this material.  —EncMstr 08:56, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Excellent work! There are excerpts from Palmer's journal in my book too. The thing that grabbed my attention was that Barlow, who was in his mid-50s, was in such poor health (from hunger and general exposure, I think) that Palmer had to "take complete control of him." They were rationing their food by eating half of it every day. If this occurred before they turned around or even shortly after, it's hard for me to imagine that Rvanatta's interpretation holds; modifying their route in that way would mean going all the way east from Palmer or Zigzag glacier, crossing the White River (near where it washed out a highway last year), and going deep into unknown territory on the east side of the mountain (roughly where Highway 35 goes now.) Even if that route was well-known and well-traveled by natives, it's hard to imagine them taking on that kind of modification to their trip. All that is before they even get close to Hood River or Lost Lake, and resume their westward journey on the north side of the mountain. I'm starting to wonder if the "Lolo pass" bit is an enduring mistake. I don't own OGN, but I did look up Lolo Pass one time, and it's not a native name -- it's named after some American guy who died in Idaho. Can anybody check this, and see when the name was first applied to the pass on Mt. Hood? -Pete 19:14, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Cool- I didn't realize at first that the journal was online at your link. This actually presents a fairly clear picture. While up on the glacier, Palmer briefly describes a ridge that might be off in the direction of Lolo Pass, but his focus is entirely on finding a passage between Hood and Tom, Dick & Harry Mt. (or possibly between TDH and Hunchback Mts., where he mis-identifies Still Creek as the headwaters of the Clackamas River.) They settled upon a route along Camp Creek, named for his camp, and still bearing that name today.


 * I'm pretty sure the route traveled by this party is roughly the present route of the Barlow Road, and that the Lolo Pass thing is a mistake. (Or conceivably, there is another pass that was once known as Lolo.) -Pete 20:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


 * (Note: I only got as far as p.152, where he starts talking about the NW side of the mountain again. More reading needed, but I have to move on for the day…) -Pete 20:40, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

OGN locates Lolo pass as a 3400 foot pass on the summit of the Cascades 2 miles south of Bull Run Lake. --- the name 'Lolo' is assigned by the USFS meaning that it is a more recent addition. OGN says you get to the pass from the west by going up 'Clear Fork of the Sandy river'.Rvannatta 00:13, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I finally got back to this. Don't know why I hesitated the first time, the first sentence on p. 152 clearly identifies the Lolo Pass road, as a known road that other pioneers have used in the past. They found the intersection to it -- that's all. There's no other mention of this route; none of Palmer's talk about people returning to The Dalles suggests that they took such a radically different route. In fact, the party's wagons were having difficulty far before the point where they would have reached Lolo Pass Road. The place where he talks about an "Indian trail to the north," on p. 149, means to the north of Ford Deposit. This would be roughly where the modern 35 approaches 26. Any confusion that the party may have used Lolo Pass surely traces back to the incorrect conflation of these two "trails to the north." -Pete 00:43, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice work! I stopped reading the first time just shy of that.  Palmer's description of the area is excellent, from soil characterization, slope, river (how did he know the river name?—reverse engineering?), flora and fauna.  His distances are amazingly reliable.  How the heck did he do that?  Maybe he was wearing a pedometer?  :-)  It's clear from this explanation that somehow the "Lolo Pass Trail" is something they merged with well below the Cascade Crest.  Given the impressionistic description of the area to the east of the trail junction, I guess I can see how confusion over which trail was what might have ensued.  I consider the mystery solved.  —EncMstr 19:51, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

timeline
Someone made a suggestion for the article to contain a comparative timeline which illustrates the environment in which the Barlow Road existed. I've grabbed a few items, some of which might not be suitable, and no doubt missing many.

If someone can find them, a graph of the number of people using the Barlow Road each year would be very interesting contrasted against this sort of information. —EncMstr 07:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Forgot to mention… I think this is a fantastic collection of info, for future work on the article! Thanks EncMstr, I'll be digging through it at some point, and yes, info about use of the road would be great to map onto this timeline, so I'll poke around for that info too. -Pete 03:16, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Another source, maybe useful: Seattle Times travel writeup about scenic byway

GA review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Very interesting article! Let me know when all the changes are made. &mdash; Rob (  talk  ) 04:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I've addressed the first part of #1, and all of #2. The latter may be problematic:  who is the author?  I put National Park Service since that seems the fairest.  Suggestions?  I'll look into the Hwy 26 issue now.  —EncMstr 06:32, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep, few people call it U.S. Route 26, so I've made it consistent to avoid confusion. Even though I've commuted on it for years, I always thought it was Oregon Route 26 until I read about on Wikipedia.  —EncMstr 06:38, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * National Park Service, or even Department of the Interior will do. It looks good now, though. Thanks! &mdash; Rob (  talk  ) 20:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Laurel forest?
The article on "Laurel forest" makes it clear that the reference to such a forest around Mt. Hood is ... aaaah.... not right.

Does this refer to thickets of Rhododendron macrophyllum, perhaps? Note that a thick stand of this rhododendron would not constitute a laurel forest, the key feature of which is the presence of members of the Lauraceae. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Floozybackloves (talk • contribs) 00:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC)


 * You're right. That's wrong. I unlinked it. Per Oregon Geographic Names (pages 564-565) Laurel Hill in Clackamas County was likely erroneously named for the rhododendrons, same with Laurel Mountain in Polk County. Laurel, Oregon and Laurelwood, Oregon were named for the "laurel trees" in the area, but most likely it was Madrone. Will we ever know for sure what those folks were really hacking through? Wild rhodies can form pretty thick, uh, thickets--it probably looked like a forest, they can get pretty tall too... And I bet them was some old-growth rhodies. Valfontis (talk) 06:43, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Source

 * https://oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/barlow_road/#.WTtgYBiZNPM --- Another Believer ( Talk ) 02:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)