Talk:Baron Arundell of Wardour

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 * 1) If the title "Baron Arundell of Wardour" is dormant, there must, by definition, be some individual who claims male-line descent from the 1st Baron, but cannot prove it with sufficient rigor. Who is this person? (I am changing this back to "extinct"; it's a barony by letters patent and cannot become abeyant because it's entailed on heirs-male. I will change it to "dormant" if there is in fact a credible claim of a collateral line.)
 * 2) While it's not impossible that the Grafschaft Arundell von Wardour was entailed as you describe, it would be very unusual. The best way to settle the matter would be to obtain the original Latin text of an Imperial patent to a Continental family where we know the title has followed the usual entail (all male-line descendants, and their daughters until marriage) and see if the Latin phraseology is the same. Choess 20:33, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

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Choess, you can email me and I will send you my proof and correspondence on this issue. There actually is a petition for a credible claim to this title.


 * That's certainly interesting. Put your email here or on your user page and I'll drop you a line. Choess 21:27, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Count/Countess is what ALL of the descendants are entitled to and is a higher rank than Baron/Baroness!!! I believe what I posted from the website said that but someone who knows NOTHING kept deleting that!!!
 * Actually it needs a royal warrant to enjoy full recognition of foreign titles and these stopped in the early C20 being granted to follow the eldest son to ensure that sundry courtesy titles didn't have a status GB didn't recognise. BTW the text of the HRE title can be found Alci12 11:18, 26 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I should note that François Velde has just posted on the subject in alt.talk.royalty again, quoting from Home Office archive 45/13725 :

"Incidentally, I learnt that a limitation to heirs general in an Austrian patent is not to be construed in the English sense. The Austrian government recently had some correspondence with the College of Arms on the subject and have stated that in Austria the expression is construed as referring only to a male heir." Mr. Velde has put the [|complete document] online; as he is generally regarded as a reliable source in matters of heraldry, I consider this sufficient proof that the Imperial title was granted to male-line descendants (and daughters) only. I will leave this message up for a few days in case someone has an objection to raise, but I will then amend the article to make it clear that the Imperial title went extinct with the Barony. Choess 04:54, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Last edit with citing self-styled "Imperial college" was funny :-) Yopie 11:37, 5 March 2008 (UTC)  Yopie (talk • contribs)
 * For third parties - this "college" have address in P.O.Box in Teddington, Middlesex and email at MSN. More about is here http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/browse_thread/thread/96b5214dda7f5ec8/066ce38c77adcc8c?hl=cs&lnk=gst&q=imperial+college# .Yopie 12:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Why care for austrian rules? The title Graf/count was given by the emperor of the holy roman empire, it is not an austrian title. Obviously you made some original research, which is not ok in WP. Therefore I delete that doubtful phrase within the article, as long as there's no valid source. --mmg (talk) 00:11, 26 December 2015 (UTC)

Comment
Comment moved from Talk:Baron Arundell of Wardour/Comments where it is unlikely to be seen. Astronaut (talk) 05:14, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The original grant to thomas arundell is: We have desired not to forget the notable virtues by which more and more you bring honour to your distinguished race at home and abroad, as when first you imbued your mind with the liberal arts, you went to foreign provinces, you saw many customs and many cities, you learned the use of great things, and finally out of such distant and remote places you came animated by a rare and singular zeal in Hungary at your own expense to this sacred war that we are waging against the Turkish host, common enemy of the Christian name; you conducted yourself bravely and vigorously in open battles and in sieges, that you were greatly commended by the Most Serene Prince Archduke Mathias our dearest brother and by the first commanders of our army to Our admiration and that of all nations, for this notable example among others observed in the storming of the citadel of Víziváros near Esztergom, when you seized the Turkish standard with your own hand and offered yourself to be seen at the very beginning of the battle, but we have desired to kindly honour you and your legitimate descendants by some eminent mark of our grace; -- Therefore of our own motion, certain knowledge, mature deliberation and with good counsel, and in the plenitude of our Imperial authority and power, We have created, made and appointed you, the said Thomas Arundell, whose kinship with counts is already accepted by the more prominent in England, and to all and singular your natural heirs, successors and legitimate descendants of either sex to be born in perpetual succession, true Counts and Countesses of the Holy Roman Empire, and by this title, honour and dignity of Imperial Count we have raised and distinguished you, as by these present we create, make, appoint, raise and distinguish you, willing and by this our imperial edict valid in perpetuity ordaining firmly and expressly that you, said Thomas Arundell, and all your issue and legitimate posterity male and female in infinity might and shall hold, receive and obtain the name and dignity of Count of the Empire henceforth for all times and be honored, called and known by it in all pronouncements written and verbal in all matters spiritual and temporal, ecclesiastic and lay, and finally that you might and shall use, enjoy, and possess, freely and without any impediment, all honors, ornaments, dignities, graces, liberties, privileges, rights, concessions, customs, preeminences and prerogatives such as our other Counts of the Holy Roman Empire use, enjoy, and possess,by right or custom. --- Notwithstanding any thing to the contrary even if such should exist of which in these present special and express mention should have been made, to which any and all things insofar as they are or could in any way be contrary we of our imperial authority knowingly derogate and want and declare by these present that have been sufficiently derogated; and the rights and superiorities of the Most Serene Princess and Lady Elizabeth, queen of England, France and Ireland our dearest sister and cousin always inviolate and saved.

And thus be it permitted to no man of whatever rank, status, order, condition and dignity they might be or whatever eminence they might hold, to transgress or be so bold as to dare contravene this page of our confirmation, ratification, approbation, corroboration, erection, authority, will, grace and decree. -- And whosoever should do so, he will find himself incuring our most serious wrath and that of the Holy Roman Empire and the pain of one hundred marks of pure gold, of which half we grant to our imperial treasury and the rest to the usage of those who have suffered injury, removing any hope of relief or pardon. In witness these letters signed by our hand and our Imperial seal appended. --- Given in our royal city of Prague, the 14th day of December the year of the Lord 1595, of our reign of the Romans the 21st, of Hungary the 24th and of Bohemia the 21st.

Rudolph

By his Imperial Majesty's command    HE IS A LEGITIMATE  "FONT OF HONOR"

Johann Barwitz

The following is from William Camden: The historie of the life and reigne of that famous princesse Elizabeth. 1634.

[172] ...This yeare [39th] returned Thomas Arundell of Wadour, whom the Emperour created Earle of the Holy Empire, and all and euery one of his Heires, his Posterity, and those that shall descend from him, lawfully begotten of either sex, Earles and Countesses of the Holy Empire; for because the Queene in her Letters had commended him as her kinsman: and because he had deserued so great an honour in his braue behauiour in the Hungary warre against the Turke. This title whosoeuer is master of, are said to enioy by vertue thereof these priuiledges, that in all Imperiall Diets they haue both place and voyce, they may purchase Land in the Empire, they may muster vp Voluntaries, and need not to appeare being cited to iudgement, but onely in the Imperiall Chamber. There were indeed those that thought that such rewards for valour were to be allowed of, from what Prince soeuer they were bestowed, by reason that vertue growes lanke without her rewards of merit, vrging the example of Henry the third King of England, who very thankfully acknowledged Reginald Mohune, made Earle of Somerset by the Apostolike authority of the Bishop of Rome. Also of Henry the eight, who did so congratulate Robert Curson, whom Maximilian the first Emperour, had created Lord of the Holy Empire, for his warlike valour, that he reckoned him amongst his Lords of England· and allowed him an annuall pension for the better [173]  maintenance of his dignity. Besides they vrged some braue Scottish Souldiers, as of Archibald Duglasse of Wigtone, who receiued the Title of Duke of Tours from the French King: and of Iohn Steward, who was by the King of France made Earle D' Euereux, & that the Scottish kings esteemed this as an honour to the Nation. Now substituting words ir reads:

Main Entry: pos·ter·i·ty Pronunciation: \pä-'ster-?-te\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English posterite, from Anglo-French pusterité, from Latin posteritat-, posteritas, from posterus coming after Date: 14th century 1 : the offspring of one progenitor to the furthest generation 2 : all future generations

and to all and singular your natural heirs,(ANYONE WHO COULD BE IN A WILL) successors and legitimate descendants(ANYONE MALE OR FEMALE OF THE BLOOD) of either sex to be born in perpetual succession, true Counts (NOT HONORIFIC)a all your issue and legitimate posterity(ALL WHO COME AFTER YOU) male and female in infinity might and shall hold, receive and obtain the name and dignity of Count of the Empire http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/descendants descendant One entry found. Ads by Google Descendants Find more sources/options for Descendants webcrawler.com/descendants Graf made of and confirmed by the king is"princely counT"and had powers to"raise troops"as we,again,princely count.

Main Entry: 2descendant Variant(s): also descendent Function: noun Etymology: French & Latin; French descendant, from Late Latin descendent-, descendens, from Latin Date: 1600 1 : one descended from another or from a common stock 2 : one deriving directly from a precursor or prototype

Therefore of our own motion, certain knowledge, mature deliberation and with good counsel, and in the plenitude of our Imperial authority and power, We have created, made and appointed you, the said Thomas Arundell, whose kinship with counts is already accepted by the more prominent in England, and to all and singular your natural heirs, successors and legitimate descendants of either sex to be born in perpetual succession, true Counts and Countesses of the Holy Roman Empire, and by this title, honour and dignity of Imperial Count we have raised and distinguished you, as by these present we create, make, appoint, raise and distinguish you, willing and by this our imperial edict valid in perpetuity ordaining firmly and expressly that you, said Thomas Arundell, and all your issue and legitimate posterity male and female(ALL THAT COME AFTER YOU MALE AND FEMALE) in infinity(FOREVER) might and shall hold, receive and obtain the name and dignity of Count of the Empire henceforth for all times and be honored, called and known by it in all pronouncements written and verbal in all matters spiritual and temporal, ecclesiastic and lay, and finally that you might and shall use, enjoy, and possess, freely and without any impediment, all honors, ornaments, dignities, graces, liberties, privileges, rights, concessions, customs, preeminences and prerogatives such as our other Counts of the Holy Roman Empire use, enjoy, and possess,by right or custom. Notwithstanding any thing to the contrary(NO ONE CAN CHANGE IT BUT RUDOLPH HIMSELF) even if such should exist of which in these present special and express mention should have been made, to which any and all things insofar as they are or could in any way be contrary we of our imperial authority knowingly derogate and want and declare by these present that have been sufficiently derogated; and the rights and superiorities of the Most Serene Princess and Lady Elizabeth, queen of England, France and Ireland our And thus be it permitted to no man of whatever rank, status, order, condition and dignity they might be or whatever eminence they might hold, to transgress or be so bold as to dare contravene this page of our confirmation, ratification, approbation, corroboration, erection, authority, will, grace and decree.(AGAIN,NO ONE CAN CHANGE THIS BUT HIRH RUDOPH HABSBURG,OUR COUSIN) And whosoever should do so, he will find himself incuring our most serious wrath and that of the Holy Roman Empire and the pain of one hundred marks of pure gold,(TO TAKE OUR TITLE FROM US WOULD INVITE ATTACK FROM THE"WHOLE EMPIRE"THEN,SERIOUS INDEED AND AN ASTRONOMICAL FINE TOO,IT WOULD BE SACRALIDGE TO TAKE THIS TITLE TODAY SINCE NO QUEEN OR KING WAS THEN OR NOW HIGH ENOUGH TO DO SO) of which half we grant to our imperial treasury and the rest to the usage of those who have suffered injury, removing any hope of relief or pardon. In witness these letters signed by our hand and our Imperial seal appended. How can it"for perpetuity"if it is mickey moused away using english rules that don't apply.It's clear the emperor meant for this to go on forever to anyone connected to this family.I am this "heir"and the barony is to a "male heir",again,this is myself. and to all and singular your natural heirs(EVERYONE AFTER YOU MALE AND FEMALE,ALL ENTITLED TO BE IN A WILL), successors and legitimate descendants(ALL WITH COMMON ANCESTORS) of either sex to be born in perpetual succession, true Counts(NOT HONORIFIC BUT"TRUE COUNTS") and Countesses of the Holy Roman Empire, nd all your issue and legitimate posterity(ALL COMING AFTER YOU) male and female(NOT JUST MALES BUT BOTH!!!) in infinity(FOREVER AND THAT MEANS THAT NOTHING CAN INVALIDATE IT OR IT CAN'T GO ON FOREVER) THE EMPEOR CONSIDERED THIS IMPORTANT BECAUSE HE LEVIED FINES AND THREATENED WAR IF THIS WAS INVALIDATED. SINCE WE HAD NO IMTERMEDIARY AFTER 1806,AND ONLY THE EMPEROR BEFORE AS PRINCE,WE BECAME "INTERMITTAR"OR "KING".PRINCE AND KINGS BOTH HAVE ENOBLING RIGHTS."PRINCE",WE HAD RIGHTS TO TITLE OF COUNT PALATINE OF LOTHARINGIA,WIGERIC AND FREDERICK 1ST AND 2ND,AND,SO,HAD RIGHTS TO ENBLE FROM THEM ALSO. RECEDENTS:http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/burton/romance/chapter-I-I.html GEORGE JOHN THICKNESS TOUCHET-BARON AUDLEY received female line recognition by the college of arms in 1820 of count.I can't show it as i can't get the wordpad to copy the grant. http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/manuscripts/HITS0001.ASP?VPath=html/20328.htm&Search=Stowe.%20168&Highlight=T ISABEL, Lady Burton, was by birth an Arundell of Wardour, a daughter of one of the oldest and proudest houses of England. The Arundells of Wardour (FEMAL LINE USED) HEIRS: 1 : one who inherits or is entitled to inherit property 2 : one who inherits or is entitled to succeed to a hereditary rank, title, or office 3 : one who receives or is entitled to receive some endowment or quality from a parent or predecessor MALE HEIR:male who is entitled to proceeds of a will,myself. - DESCENDANTS: 1 : one descended from another or from a common stock 2 : one deriving directly from a precursor or prototype

BY THIS WORDING THEN THE"UNIQUE""ONE OF A KIND" GRANT READS:This deviates from regular austrian rules and is in perpetuity(forever).How can it go on"forever"if it is"mickey moused"out of existence?This would"contravene"the emperors will and decree!!!NO ONE can contravene it BUT rudoph 2nd and he did not!He stood for count arundell in times of trial CHENEY[USA-Utah]: 2 gen, CHENEY[USA-New York], CHENEY[USA-Maine]: 3 gen, CHENEY[USA-Massachusetts]: 2 gen, CHENEY[England](LORD THOMAS HOWARDS WIFES NAME WAS TILNEY/CHENY) STAFFORD[USA-Alabama], STAFFORD[USA-Missouri], STAFFORD[England]: 2 gen 15/20(LORD THOMAS HOWARDS WIFE'S NAME WAS STAFFORD) HOWARD[USA]: 3 gen, HOWARD[USA-Maryland]: 4 gen, HOWARD[England](DIRECT DNA LINK TO THEM***) Descendants of Thomas, Lord Arundell of Wardour, Baron of Arundell. (Contributed by Mrs. Foster B. Hammers. -Data presented is a result of work done for Mrs. Hammers by Mr. Edward N. Manley of Los Angeles in 1969.)

I. Richard, James and John Arundel to America. II. Richard Arundell: arrived in Jamestown, Elizabeth City County, Virginia. Found in Granville County, North Carolina in St. John's Parish in 1757. He married Ellinor (last name not known). Richard*s will dated 18 Feb. 1750 in Granville Co., iI.C. Issue named eight: (1) William; (2) John; (3) Sarah; (4) Rebecca; (5) Mary; (6) Thomas; (7) James; (8) Benjamin.(MY LINES***) Child 8. Benjamin Arundell, settled in Wake County, N.C. in 1771. His wife was Rebecca (name taken from deed, Book 3, p. 4, Wake Co., N.C., dated 31 August 1771). Yahoo tallahatchie county marriges 1884 mississippi and you see mary e arendale(arundell)this is my ancestor. 174 Nelson, John T. Arendale, M.E. 03-06-1884(my ggggreatgrandparents)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.241.225.229 (talk) 02:05, 14 August 2009


 * This would be a whole lot easier to understand if you had bothered to check what you had written before clicking "save page". The large sections cut & pasted from other sites, are given without context; where you have added your own text, you have failed to put a space after any punctuation mark, making it really hard to read; and due to the way in which wiki-markup works, the original paragraph separation has disappeared.  I was thinking of correcting some of the formatting errors, but in the end I just replaced the lines of "=" characters with lines of "-" to prevent your comment messing up the headers.  Astronaut (talk) 05:31, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Death of 16th and last Baron Arundell
It has been mentioned in more than one place that he was killed in action; this is erroneous. Had he been killed outright at time of death (25 September 1944) in any land force battles at that stage of the war it would be highly unlikely his body would be brought to be buried at Wardour Castle Chapel (registered by Commonwealth War Graves Commission). It may be more correct to say he died from effects of service during the Second World War, for he died in England of tuberculosis for which he was repatriated from German captivity (ultimately Colditz Castle) as a prisoner of war. I will look for a way to rephrase the statement in the article with citation, if someone else does not.Cloptonson (talk) 21:38, 2 July 2012 (UTC) In fact the last Lord Arundell died in Chester Military Hospital. His mother and both his sisters were at or near his bedside. He could recognize them but was unable to talk. See thepeerage.com under entry for Arundell of Wardour. His will, of which I have a copy, is a curious document. Made in 1937 and altered in 1939,witnessed on the latter date by army colleagues, it is the will of a man who does not expect to survive. I have seen references to his time in Colditz which indicate that he "exercised in the snow", which sounds like a potentially suicidal act. What surprises me is that although he was the last heir male, he had not troubled to marry. Was he gay? Or was it just the perennial habit of the latter-day Arundells of marrying late, if at all? RhosfawrRhosfawr (talk) 15:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Austrian rules
In the post-Middle Ages era, anyone granted the title of Count by the emperor in his specific capacity as ruler of the Holy Roman Empire (rather than, e.g. as ruler of Austria, Bohemia, Hungary, the Spanish Netherlands, etc.) became, ipso facto, an "Imperial Count", whether he reigned over an immediate county or not.

This means austrain and English heraldry/nobility rules did not apply to this :one of a kind/extraordinary"grant.Also,count arundell was not a count but a "princely count"as seen,Proof of "princely perogative": The Emperor, delighted with Arundell's brave and gallant conduct and bearing, loaded him with honours, and created him, on the field of battle, a Count of the Sacred Roman Empire, with all the rank and privileges of an Austrian noble, and by special grant to descend to his legitimate posterity, male and female, for ever. Hence, every legitimately born Arundell is a Count or Countess (Reichsgraf or Reichsgrafin) of the Great German Empire of Rudolph of Hapsburg. The title and privileges and traditions are much thought of in Austria, and are equal to an old peerage in England. A prince in Austria is considered to have made a mesalliance should he marry a simple countess, but a countess of the Empire is placed on equal rank.

And: THE LAWSON MANUSCRIPT.

ROGER DE ARRUNDELL WAS FOUND POSSESED OF TWENTY-EIGHT LORDSHIPS COM. SOMERSET 20 WILL CONQ.(DOMESDAY BOOK)

GILBERT DE ARUNDELL

SIR RENFRICK ARRUNDELL

SIR HUMPHREY ARUNDELL

SIR RALPH ARUNDELL

REINFRICK ARRUNDELL

SIR JOHN ARRUNDELL

JOHN ARRUNDELL/ELIZABETH DAUGHTER AND COHEIR OF SIR OLIVER CARMINOW

Before turning to the matches of Sir Oliver Carminow's descendants by his first wife, Elizabeth Pomeroy, I propose here to refer to the ancient seat of Carminow in the parish of Mawgan-in-Menage, which was probably rebuilt by Sir Oliver.

Ralph or Radulphus de la Pomerai was awarded some 54 Devonshire manors for his support of the Duke William of Normandy, known as William the Bastard, the Conqueror and as William I of England.

DNA MATCH: John William Pomroy

emailFTDNA Tip note Y-DNA37 R1b1a2     0  *My descendage is proven. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrhprincewilliamofwardour (talk • contribs) 18:31, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Proof of claim
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:162.201.51.26#CALVERTS_IN_MARYLAND — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrhprincewilliamofwardour (talk • contribs) 02:31, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

ANOTHER DNA MATCH
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~thomasarundell/royal.gif

My dna match:

Petitt R-M269  K1-T16362C   x--k haplotype traced to Israel and charlemegne(spell?)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hrhprincewilliamofwardour (talk • contribs) 02:38, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

20 points of matching so far,or more--http://www.hrhprincewilliamtoo.com/429440203 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2C93:2DD0:5CDA:F140:1C25:57B (talk) 01:54, 2 June 2017 (UTC)