Talk:Baron Willoughby of Parham

How many barons?
There is some confusion with the number of Barons of Willoughby of Parham. On Leigh Rayment's website page peersw2 states there were only 14 barons. It is the same with European Heraldry website page House of Willoughby which also states 14 barons.

Peerage.com has the first ten Barons Willoughby of Parham:
 * William Willoughby, 1st Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * Charles Willoughby, 2nd Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * William Willoughby, 3rd Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * Henry Willoughby, 4th Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * Francis Willoughby, 5th Baron Willoughy of Parham
 * William Willoughby, 6th Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * George Willoughby, 7th Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * John Willoughby, 8th Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * John Willoughby, 9th Baron Willoughby of Parham
 * Charles Willoughby, 10th Baron Willoughby of Parham

But the same website has three Lords Willoughby of Parham, the 3rd lord is missing:
 * Thomas Willoughby, 1st Lord Willoughby of Parham
 * Hugh Willoughby, 2nd Lord Willoughby of Parham
 * Charles Willoughby, 4th Lord Willoughby of Parham

It does not make sense, Barons and Lords Willoughby of Parham.

Stirnet.com has to two pages willoughby01 and willoughby02 but states there were 17 barons. And informationdelight.info Baron Willoughby Of Parham also has 17 barons.

It would be nice to know which websites are correct? – HLE (talk) 20:00, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * There were 17 barons however the result comes from original research, there is an obscure publication that names the last two, Rivington Chapel confirms to the 15th Baron only. I and others did the research on the ancestry back in 96 and it took a few years, the ancestry chart is original research. The family chart is part of a yet incomplete unpublished work in sections 'Line of succession and Family'. The information was aided by surviving relatives. I apologise for publishing the chart. Maybe retaining just the list of barons in line with other barons pages is best. --Pennine rambler (talk) 22:01, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I dont have an account to view the second site I just get a quick flash then log in or join. It may be worth checking the freebmd site, some of my great grandmothers relatives have uploaded gedcom files there and to genesreunited --Pennine rambler (talk) 22:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I have just had a closer look at first two sites, they are sort of correct - the first baronage was created and extinct creating a new Barony, however the Barons themselves did not use the numbering system they have given. The only way to present that information in a way that is understandable and accurate is numbered for the full line of Barons, with a note of its new creations by de facto. The issues arise as a result of a living heir, the first web page ends with a caveat, the heir has been over to the UK since. My own research led me to find the lineage as its later branches entwined with my own family --Pennine rambler (talk) 22:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The two websites Leigh Rayment peersw2 and European Heraldry House of Willoughby incorrectly list only fourteen barons. The first ten numbered are correct, just the dates need to be verified. The last four are incorrectly numbered or weren't even barons. The Peerage.com website is correct with the first 10 barons Willoughby of Parham, but again some of the dates need to be verified. Peerage.com then has the 1st, 2nd and 4th Lords Willoughby of Parham, but by checking with other sources (principally Burke, see below) turns out they are in fact the 11th, 12th and 14th Barons. So the website has the numbering incorrect. The Stirnet.com website shows two Willoughby family tree pages, but quickly disappears and asks to log-in or register. The informationdelight.info website correctly lists all the seventeen barons, but sadly when clicking on each one does not give any further information. The best source is "A General and Heraldic Dictionary of the Peerage of England, Ireland and Scotland, Extinct, Dormant, and in Abeyance", (which can be downloaded free from here) by John Burke (original publisher of Burke's Peerage), pages 575–578, which correctly lists all the seventeen barons, their families and some dates. There is also a local book "Rivington, Lancashire" by M.D.Smith has "Chapter 24, The Barons of Willoughby" which covers the 11th to 15th barons and has the full text of the commerative tablet in Rivington Unitarian Chapelyard. Hopefully, this will answer the confusion with the information from difference sources. – HLE (talk) 16:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I should correct my later message, the barony has two creations, 1st to 10th, then the second is 11th to 15th renumbered 1 to 5. last two add back to first creation to give 12 of that creation. However this is guaranteed to confuse most people. The original 1 to 17 seems best.  --Pennine rambler (talk) 16:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * By going the information in Burke's book, there has only been one creation. On the death of the 10th baron, decendant of the eldest son of the 2nd baron, the barony should have gone to the decendants of Sir Ambrose Willoughby, the second son of the 2nd baron. Instead the barony went to the decendants of Thomas Willoughby, fifth son of the 2nd baron. When the male line of the fifth son of the 2nd baron died out, the title corrected itself and went to the decendants of the second son of the 2nd baron. When that line died out the title then became extinct. There is no record of any other creations than the original one. – HLE (talk) 18:07, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Its a complex subject, but the writ calling on 11th created another instance of the Barony, it was subject to a debate in the Lords at the time. As I said it is far easier to just list them as one. --Pennine rambler (talk) 19:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Second creation
The sources claiming a second creation by writ are simply not acceptable as authority sources. Being neither Official government/parliament citations nor specialist peerage resources or publications.Garlicplanting (talk) 11:14, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Parham Moat Hall and Parham Old Hall
The image on the article page which claims to show Parham Old Hall actually shows Parham Moat Hall, which I believe is not the same thing. My recollection about this is slightly vague but I think the Old Hall was up on the left of the road leading to Framlingham, whereas the Moat Hall is up the lane to the right near the former Willoughby Arms Inn ('the Parram Wilby') of hallowed memory. The confusion is often made, because the Moat Hall is so old and picturesque, but this needs checking and perhaps correcting. Eebahgum (talk) 00:59, 6 November 2016 (UTC)