Talk:Barrett v. Rosenthal/Archive 3

Superior Court rulings on Dr. Terry Polevoy
This new section, added by the new editor Wikigal128, has no independent sources to show that this is worth mention per WP:UNDUE. Further, adding it this way without such references may be considered a WP:BLP violation. I've tagged the section accordingly. --Ronz (talk) 18:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I totally agree that this should be immediately removed per WP:BLP. I just don't think this should be in the article or Wikipedia until it verified with at least on outside source other than this court document which actually does not say anything to explain the situation.  This new editor only has 4 (my last look) contributions all to this paragraph.  Maybe a note to the editor explaining the need for a second source would be useful and not WP:Bite.  I would also like to point out that there is a hidden section of external links that also have this info in it plus three other EL's.  Why should the EL section be hidden in the first place?  I never understood hiding things in the belly of an article like this.  If it is hidden like this how is an editor supposed to know it's there with out hitting the edit page to see what is hidden?  Maybe someone would take the time to explain this on my talk page for me so I understand this better.  I bet there is an easier way to see the hidden stuff but if there is I am clueless! ;)


 * Should it be deleted immediately, per BLP? I think so, but what do others say?  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  18:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. It should be pointed out that, even if the scanned order is legitimate, it doesn't support the assertion that costs were awarded.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin  (talk) 18:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Agree, Arthur you are right about the numbers. -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  12:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Careful study of the official court page suggests that costs were awarded to Rosenthal (only) against Polevoy (only), but only against US assets, such as PayPal. However, this is my interpretation.  We can't report that without a WP:RS making the interpreatation, under BLP.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin  (talk) 12:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Commented out External links
I don't understand why these were commented out. If we can agree there are useful external links here, or better yet, reliable sources currently not used, then they should be added back in: --Ronz (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Justices hand victory to free speech online - Howard Mintz, San Jose Mercury News
 * Calif. Supreme Court Shields Web Republishers - Jessie Seyfer, Law.com
 * How Web providers dodged a big legal bullet - Eric J. Sinrod, CNET News.com
 * High court justices sound cool toward Internet libel case - Bob Egelko, San Francisco Chronicle
 * I see that was a unilateral action without adequate discussion. Some would call it vandalism, but at least the content is still there. It should be restored immediately. -- Fyslee / talk 19:38, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Judge denies Ilena Rosenthal's lawyers the right to take Terry Polevoy's wages from Ontario Health Plan —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned] comment added by Wikigal128 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Added by a third party while commented out; it's not a usable link, in my opinion. &mdash; Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:54, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * - Alameda Superior Court Action pages for Barrett v. Clark. Judge Dombrink's decision to deny Rosenthal's attorney's attempt to take money from Terry Polevoy's payroll in Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.253.231.213 (talk • contribs)
 * We can't use a specific document without a secondary source as to its meaning and notability. We can link to the entire set of court case documents as an external source, I suppose.  &mdash; Arthur Rubin  (talk) 12:53, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, a secondary source is needed to be able to decide WP:Notability, WP:Weight, WP:BLP concerns and other policies but I don't want to overwhelm the new editor. To the new editor, please sign your post using the four tildes or just click the box so your signature is inserted for you.  (this can be found to the right of the W with the red circle and line through it.)  Thanks, I tried briefly to see if I could find a secondary source to no avail, but I have to be honest, I didn't give myself enough time checking into it.  -- Crohnie Gal  Talk  13:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

With regard to the External links, these are all excellent third-party sources which can and should be incorporated into the article, rather than remain just external links. Agreed? -- Levine2112 discuss 06:12, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * With regard to External links, when an External link is added to the body of the article it should be removed from the External links section. We don't need duplication of the same link in two places. QuackGuru (talk) 07:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Done and done. -- Levine2112 discuss 07:33, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Relying heavily on primary sources is inappropriate
See WP:PRIMARY: ''Wikipedia articles should rely mainly on published reliable secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources. All interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about primary sources must be referenced to a secondary source, rather than original analysis of the primary-source material by Wikipedia editors.''

See WP:BLP: ''Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims.''

See WP:GNG: If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article.

The article currently relies mostly on primary sources. This is inappropriate. QuackGuru (talk) 07:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Half of the references given are third-party (secondary sources) and most of the article can be directly referenced to these sources. If there are any interpretive claims, analyses, or synthetic claims about the primary sources used in this article that are not referenced to a secondary source, please distinguish those specifically and let's deal with them one by one. Certainly this court case has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject (only some of that coverage is either cited in the article already or provided in the the External links. There are many other articles and books discussing or referencing this case; all one has to do is search:   - it goes on and on. -- Levine2112 discuss  08:04, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There are still references in the article that are primary sources. Primary sources are inappropriate in a BLP. QuackGuru (talk) 16:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is not a BLP. -- Levine2112 discuss 17:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The article is a BLP and BLP applies even if the article is not a BLP. QuackGuru (talk) 17:21, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is not a biography of a living person, but yet BLP applies on some levels. Even BLPs allows for the use of primary sources, especially in conjunction with secondary sources - which is what we are doing here. If you feel the article needs more secondary source, then please feel free to choose from the near 20 source links I give just above and add them to the article where you feel it is necessary. Tis better to contribute then to complain. That said, feel free to discuss any of your contributions here with the community. Thanks and good luck! -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99; color:#774400; font-size:x-small;">discuss 17:58, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Secondary sources, and then some
I have thoroughly bolstered this articles references with a variety of secondary sources. The only statement which I was unable to find any sources for (primary or secondary) is: "...though it has later allowed the case to continue against her co-defendants." If anyone knows of a source for this statement, please provide it. Thanks. Anyhow, I think my work here has thoroughly addressed QuackGuru's BLP concerned - whether it was merited or not. Overall, I think this article is in decent shape. Anyone interested in shooting for Good Article status? -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99; color:#774400; font-size:x-small;">discuss 21:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I think it looks fairly good now. Bearian (talk) 20:06, 17 March 2009 (UTC) I'd rate it C-class. Bearian (talk) 20:09, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the assessment, Bearian. Can you please let us know how you arrived at that so we have some guidance on how to improve the article? Below I included a small table describing a "C" class article to help focus this discussion. Thanks again. -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99; color:#774400; font-size:x-small;">discuss 20:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello, I've got a lot of background knowledge about this case. Will be working on it. QG is partially right. Although this article is not a BLP, BLP claims must be sourced wherever they might reside. There are many claims about living people in this article that should be up to BLP standards.

At any rate, I think one of the problems with the article is that it focuses on the details of Barrett and Rosenthal. Most legal commentary considers it significant as law. I've tired to rewrite the introduction to capture that. Cool Hand Luke 20:55, 17 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the good improvements. This article has lacked background information for some time. You have done a good and neutral job. -- Fyslee (talk) 03:08, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks. If I ever find time, I would like to work this up to GA. It was a well-reported case because of what the court of appeals decided. For some time the article has been more focused on their specific claims than the law, but the law is what makes it more notable. Cool Hand Luke 13:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)


 * It is indeed a notable decision. It isn't everyday that one finds personal rights diminished to such a degree that even the justices involved expressed concerns for the unfortunate consequences of the decision they felt they were forced to make. They then passed the buck back to Congress. It's also notable that SLAPP wording and principles were used as a defense, even though no evidence was ever introduced that the right to expression of criticism was in any way attacked or limited by the suit. It was not intended to have such an effect, and it never did have such an effect. The case was directed at libel, and such has always been forbidden. It was only the libelous part that was being attacked, not the criticisms, which have continued unabated, and which were never an object of the suit. It's very interesting that such a case could go through the courts unopposed. It seems that a combination of a feeble defense and justices bowing to the massive forces of large internet giants allowed it happen. I would have demanded evidence that SLAPP was ever proven to be an issue. -- Fyslee (talk) 22:55, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

FYI. -- <b style="color:#996600; font-family:times new roman,times,serif;">Levine2112</b> <sup style="padding:1px; border:1px #996600 dotted; background-color:#FFFF99; color:#774400; font-size:x-small;">discuss 16:56, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * An editor claimed Having that tag in place is definitely detrimental to this process. How is it detrimental? The reviewer can review the tag. The tag indicates it is unnecessary to have primary sources in the article. It is better to stick to higher quality sources such as what was done at the chiropractic page. Lower quality primary sources were removed from chiropractic in accordance with policy. We can do the same here. See WP:MEDRS. QuackGuru (talk) 17:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm here as a result of that posting. First, I know from experience that tags are detrimental to the GA process, as they may be cited as grounds for failing without a thorough review. Moreover, the template in question does not accurately describe the concerns you have expressed. You don't seem to be disputing that the article contains references to "reliable third-party publications", your stated concern is that you feel the article makes too much use of primary sources. The primarysources tag, as is, is not about over-reliance on primary sources per se, but rather a lack of quality secondary sources. PSWG1920 (talk) 18:20, 20 April 2009 (UTC)


 * QG, I'm wondering what WP:MEDRS has to do with this? -- Brangifer (talk) 05:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Appropriate links?
This article is for law students not for an encyclopedia--Klackjesper (talk) 06:55, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

I wanted to add links to both sides home pages, but "the side that won" was classified as Spam and was censored! That can not be correct!!--Klackjesper (talk) 07:20, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Her attempts to add the same false defamatory information to Wikipedia was reverted. Her site was banned for the following reason, as seen at MediaWiki talk:Spam-blacklist/archives/January 2010:

"This is the website of a banned user, User:Ilena. She has previously spammed it and Bolen (and his socks) have also done so. Both users have been banned by the Arbitration Committee. It is classified as a hatesite which attacks Wikipedia and its users and is often used by those who hate Stephen Barrett. It contains libelous material and shouldn't be allowed here."


 * — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:42, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You say "same false defamatory", but your reference say: "t would be defamatory, if not protected under .....". So you say it is defamatory. But then you take it back. Because it is not defamatory "because it is protected......". So it is not defamatory. As it is told on Ilenas blogg:"From the Supreme Court decision, I quote:"As the lower courts correctly concluded, however, none of the hostile comments against Dr. Barrett alleged in the complaint are defamatory."From her blogg. So fact is fact, and it is important to present it as clear as possible. An Encyclopedia article shall be easy to understand. I think this article needs improvement in that sense.--Klackjesper (talk) 10:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It would be defamatory if not posted on the Internet. In any case, it violates WP:BLP, which is much stronger than merely being defamatory.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 10:36, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * But that is a different question. It has nothing to do with this case Barrett vs Rosentahl.Your argument is not relevant in this question.--Klackjesper (talk) 10:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * We (Wikipedia) cannot include material violating WP:BLP, which includes defamatory material, and material which would be defamatory if printed, and most of the material on Ilena's blog, unless it were taken from a reliable source. Whatever you can say about Ilena, she is not reliable.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 11:01, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You are drifting away.--Klackjesper (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not really. If you want to write an article about Ilena Rosenthal, you may do so, provided it doesn't violate WP:BLP.  (If the redirect is protected, write it in your userspace, as User:Klackjesper/Ilena Rosenthal, and propose it be moved live, at some point.)  On the other hand, if you are Rosenthal or Bolen, you are violating a Wikipedia ban, and your edits (and my commentary) should be summarily removed.  But linking to her web site is not allowed.  — Arthur Rubin  (talk) 11:15, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

"I wanted to add links to both sides home pages" Neither are appropriate to add per WP:EL. --Ronz (talk) 18:45, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * MOST PEOPLE DO NOT KNOW A SLAPP-SUIT IS.So I add an external link on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Karl den tolfte (talk • contribs) 16:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)