Talk:Barry Soetoro

Target
"Barry Soetoro" is not mentioned in Barack Obama. It is in Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories. The redirect should go to an article that mentions the name. - SummerPhD (talk) 02:25, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm well aware that various "birther" idiots have tried to hang their nonsense theories off of the name "Barry Soetoro". Unfortunately, a number of editors have interpreted NPOV in a way that amounts to hypercorrection both in the main Barack Obama article and with this redirect, minimizing something that doesn't need minmizing. It's not controversial or POV to redirect a well-known name used by a person to the article on that person, even if the reason why the name is well-known is because idiot conspiracy theorists think it proves their idiot conspiracy. It is POV to give this redirect special handling because of the said idiots. And, importantly, it doesn't tend to minimize the conspiracy bullshit - rather, redirecting this to the conspiracy page implies that this name does prove something important about the conspiracy theory, when in fact it doesn't. This name that Barack Obama used as a child should redirect to the main article on Barack Obama, the person who used this name as a child, as we do in every other case where someone went by a different name at some point - not to a page about people who believe that name means weird things about the person who once used it. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Believe me, I understand that people try to promote poorly supported ideas via Wikipedia. My interest is in having the redirect make sense to anyone who encounters it. That Obama used the name and that conspiracies abuse the name are both valid findings when typing the name in the "search" box on Wikipedia and hitting enter. However, at the moment, a redirect to Barack Obama is an inexplicable result: nothing in the article mentions the name ("Soetoro", yes. "Barry" and "Barry Soetoro", no.) Yes, the conspiracy theory is bunk, but it is notable bunk. Obama's actual use of the name is quite minor by comparison, except as it relates to this notable bunk. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:13, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Believe me, I understand that people try to promote poorly supported ideas via Wikipedia. My interest is in having the redirect make sense to anyone who encounters it. That Obama used the name and that conspiracies abuse the name are both valid findings when typing the name in the "search" box on Wikipedia and hitting enter. However, at the moment, a redirect to Barack Obama is an inexplicable result: nothing in the article mentions the name ("Soetoro", yes. "Barry" and "Barry Soetoro", no.) Yes, the conspiracy theory is bunk, but it is notable bunk. Obama's actual use of the name is quite minor by comparison, except as it relates to this notable bunk. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:13, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It is, I agree, "notable bunk". I'm not trying to argue against coverage of the bunk. I just think that it violates NPOV to target this anywhere other than the main Barack Obama article. Bear in mind, that article sometimes mentions that he used the name "Barry Soetoro"; it did so the last time I changed the target back to that article, but the same hypercorrective instinct that makes editors change the target of this redirect also makes them remove the name from that article, even though it shouldn't be controversial to mention that he went by that name. However, I don't want to get into a revert war over it. What I would suggest is to list this at Redirects for discussion, which allows nominations to determine the community consensus about where a redirect ought to be targeted. That way, it's not either of our lone opinions on the matter, and I'll accept whatever the community consensus is about the proper target. It would also document the community consensus if someone else came along and wanted to change the target all over again. — Gavia immer (talk) 03:40, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Good enough. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * As of this second the Barack Obama indeed does not mention "Barry Soetoro" directly. It may well be edited again to use that mention, we can't control that from this redirect (that's not only a matter of hypersensitivity to birthers or whatever, there are also simple length and style considerations).  However, the article does (and always has) mentioned both that his step-father was Lolo Soetoro and that he used the childhood nickname "Barry" (and within a paragraph of each other).  So it is not now, nor has it ever been, all that difficult for someone following the redirect to understand the connection.  LotLE × talk  17:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * This is ridiculous. This re-direct should be changed, or even better, text should be added covering this topic that exposes this  as a lie.  In 2007 Obama posted his birth certificate online.  People just refuse to accept it because Hawaii used a different style certificate then the contiguous 48 does.  Obama's name is NOT in question by anyone who isn't a racist.  Google it!  Wikipedia is promoting racism by entertaining this lie propagated by fear mongering racists.  ...People's encyclopedia my @$$.  I bet my comment gets erased within seconds. User: Anonymous 10:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.71.90 (talk)

Disambiguate?
I propose that this page disambiguate between Hussein Obama and the page about the questions surrounding his citizenship. I feel that this would be an acceptable middle ground. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.90.190 (talk) 02:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As per the discussion here, and WP:IAR I have restored the disambiguation page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.90.190 (talk • contribs) 02:57, 4 May 2011
 * You saying something and agreeing with yourself is not "discussion". - SummerPhD (talk) 03:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * For openers, your odd selection of names for Barack Obama is... concerning. Late last month, you decided this should be redirected to Bareck Obama, and article that does not use this name. Four days later, you decided a disamb page, between the conspiracy theory page and Barack Obama might do the trick, though you now felt the need to include the "Hussein" part. After a bit more thought, you decided to drive the point home by replacing the pesky "conspiracy theories" name with "questions surrounding the citizenship of Barack Hussein Obama and the legitimacy of his Presidency" (there's that "Hussein" again...). Now you're restoring your edits per "discussion" with ... um ... yourself and a pointless "Ignore all rules" claim (Which rules are you ignoring? WHY are you ignoring those particular rules?)
 * Well. We have two proposed targets for this redirect. Let's take a look at this logically. Someone comes to Wikipedia and searches for "Barry Soetoro". Two possibilities: 1) They looking for information on President of the United States Barack Obama and only know him by this name pulled from some obscure conspiracy theory (despite every source that refers to him in any context other than the conspiracy theory using the name "Barack Obama") -OR- 2) They are looking for information on the name that is only ever used in the context of the conspiracy theory.
 * What would be most helpful for someone searching using this name? 1) An article (Barack Obama) that does not mention the name or explain its meaning. -OR- 2) An article (Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories) that discusses the name and the theory.
 * Hmm. Yeah. Let's go with the one that makes sense. - SummerPhD (talk) 03:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * User:SummerPhd, thank you for your reply. You obviously put a lot of thought into it.  I personally know many people who only knew Barack Hussein Obama by the name Barry Soetoro and 95% of them were not helped by the current redirect situation.  Once I told them that Barry Soetoro was the alias that Barack Hussein Obama used during his time in Indonesia, they understood and were grateful.  Perhaps a merge of the two articles would be in order, or the disambiguation page and some information about Hussein's time in Indonesia and the names he used at that time.  And please, in the future remember to assume good faith as I have with you.  Godspeed.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.90.190 (talk) 04:59, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I find your story highly unlikely. You have a group of friends who apparently never read a newspaper or watch the news and when they go online, it's only to read about the hollow Earth, faked Moon landings and obscure conspiracy theories about President Obama. They never hear about the President of the U.S.? In California? Yeah, and I'm the pope. In any event, directing this alleged group of friends to the Barack Obama article would be confusing. Directing them to the conspiracy theory article, which actually explains the name, will tell them what the name means and then provides plenty of links to the the SummerPhD (talk) 11:39, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I am Chinese internet user and in China Shenzhen, US president is known only by the name Barry Soetoro. I wish to be helpful to internet users and Chinese internet user, so I restore previous version of this page and add also more new informations. --124.193.109.14 (talk) 01:50, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Sooooo, users in China only know him as Barry Soetoro? These residents of China are reading the English Wikipedia (instead of the Chinese Wikipedia) yet, apparently, are not reading any other English language sites? Wha....? - SummerPhD (talk) 03:00, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not know about rest of China, but in Guangdong Shenzhen we only know of President by name Barry Soetoro. I do not know about other china user but I read english wikipedia to learn english. i learn from wikipedia how to read english and only want to help!!!! ^^^___^^^ --124.193.109.14 (talk) 03:41, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * To be blunt, I still find your story highly unlikely. Someone adds the redirect, with questionable name variations, then "discusses" it -- after the fact -- on the talk page. Then you come along and do the same. After I find it unlikely that that user, editing from California, knows a lot of people who "only knew "Barack Hussein Obama by the name Barry Soetoro" (that editor disappears...) you appear and make the same claim, oh, but you're in China. Oh, and those users in China read the English Wikipedia but no other English sources. The "other" editor said "Barry Soetoro was the alias that Barack Hussein Obama used during his time in Indonesia" you added "The alias used by US President Barack Hussein Obama during his time in Indonesia". The other editor in California seems to be near San Francisco. Your first edit? Adding wikilinks to Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality in San Francisco, CA. Should I bother with the sock case and semi-protection on the article? - SummerPhD (talk) 04:11, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
 * 124.193.109.14 has been blocked as an open proxy. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:09, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Sometimes they come back. No one looking for information on Barack Obama is searching with the term "Barry Soetoro". No one claims this is an "alias" unless they are here to expose "the Truth". No one goes out of their way to include Obama's middle name unless they are here to expose "the Truth". The single appropriate target here is the Hollister v. Soetoro section of Barack Obama presidential eligibility litigation discussing the waste of the court's time launched by agents provocateurs and a foot soldier in their crusade, using the courts for an improper purpose such as to harass. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 00:23, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Now the unexplained reverts have started. There are several ways this can go:
 * more unexplained reverts (a.k.a. "edit warring"), leading to an IP range block and/or a sock puppetry case and page protection.
 * new claims that someone, somewhere only knows the President of the United States by a name plucked from an obscure conspiracy theory/crusade. This can lead to several other endings, one of which is similar to the block in 2011.
 * reasonable discussion of why, contrary to the established consensus we should rewrite the encyclopedia from the POV of the conspiracy theorists.
 * Let's see what happens. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

New redirect target
It took some doing, but this is the justification for changing the redirect. No one considered the possibility of a new article being created, and as a result no mention of "Barry Soetoro" could be found in its previous target.— Vchimpanzee  ·  talk  ·  contributions  · 19:36, 4 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Concur, there is no poin in redirecting to Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories because the name "Barry Soetoro" is no longer mentioned in that article. The name is mentioned at Barack Obama presidential eligibility litigation, which should be the target of the redirect.  EdChem (talk) 07:50, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
 * For a while now, it appears the name is mentioned multiple times in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, and only once in Barack Obama presidential eligibility litigation, so I've moved the redirect back to the article that makes the most sense. JimKaatFan (talk) 16:37, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Out of context video posted at some site somewhere
Michelle Obama refers to her husband's "home country" as being "kenya" on video (available widely online). Can one of you guys please inform her that it's a bunch of "bunk" and that she's an "idiot conspiracy theorist"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.231.147.246 (talk) 13:15, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This talk page is for discussing the redirect from "Barry Soetoro". You're looking for Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. - Sum mer PhD  (talk) 15:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

Barry Soetoro
Time to stop censoring the truth. 2600:1005:B0F4:2413:B50F:1ECB:3B25:2268 (talk) 21:09, 27 November 2022 (UTC)