Talk:Barry Williams (spree killer)/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Montanabw (talk · contribs) 00:44, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

I will review this article. Some initial thoughts:
 * 1) I note that a short discussion of disambiguation occurred on my talk page. Perhaps to avoid a parenthetical dab that could be viewed as judgmental (even if accurate), perhaps move to a title with his middle name or middle initial, such as Barry K. Williams or Barry Kenneth Williams.  For me this is not a GA issue, but if it is something under discussion, that's my suggestion for solving it.
 * 2) The lead needs to be expanded. Two paragraphs is usually the minimum for a GA-class article.  I think you can probably add one more sentence on his background, expand a bit more on his arrest and trial, perhaps note that, per the "spree killer" label, that the 1978 killings all occurred within what looks like less than 2 hours?
 * 3) I am not fond of one-sentence paragraphs, I would strongly recommend adding more material or blending at least some of them into longer paragraphs.
 * 4) Is there any information on Williams' behavior during his hospitalization (hospitalisation, I guess you say in the UK) or any news on why he was deemed "cured'" enough to release? Any expansion on the law in the UK governing such conditions or anything we can add to that section?
 * 5) I would recommend you wikilink "mental health legislation
 * 6) I suggest a rework first sentence of 2013 incident section, it's a run-on.

Those are my initial thoughts. More to come. The table below will illustrate what I am looking for:  Montanabw (talk)  00:44, 8 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I disagree with using his middle name or middle initial as the article's title. His middle name is uncited and not mentioned in media sources. He is a spree killer who has been convicted of five counts of manslaughter. It is usual when disambiguating to use what the person is known for in the article name. We don't usually disambiguate by middle name when the person is not known by their middle name.
 * The article lacks important information which prevents it qualifying as a good article, including: date and place of birth, early life, education, previous convictions (if any), his behaviour in hospital from 1978-1994, an infobox and a photo. Jim Michael (talk) 17:13, 8 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Jim, you are not the reviewer, I am. I will exercise appropriate discretion.  I presume that some of this information may not be available (such as a photo) and the GA criteria do not necessarily require that we have information that cannot be obtained.  Feel free to add an infobox if you wish, that would be helpful.   Montanabw (talk)  05:32, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, User:Montanabw, for your helpful comments. I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to reply in the table, or here. To address your points:

Hope that satisfies. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:03, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
 * There's also discussion of the article name on its talk page; I'll see if consensus emerges
 * Lede expanded
 * All but one one-sentence paras changed.
 * Detail of his time in treatment is (rightly) sparse, but some detail of his discharge added.
 * "mental health legislation" linked.
 * 2013 section run-on changed.
 * Place-names linked.
 * Additional material added.
 * Stafford Court image added. Our only image of Broadmoor is poor and too modern. Will take one of the Birmingham courthouse the next time I pass it.


 * Lede is much better, additional material is helpful, photo is helpful, links good. I believe that the article name issue is outside the scope of GA, though I must say that I prefer articles to avoid parenthetical disambiguation as much as possible.  (My own work on wikiproject horse racing is in a project that is tending toward removing the parenthetical (jockey) in favor of full name with middle initials or other identifiers where possible (i.e. Mike E. Smith, John R. Velazquez, but also see Aiden O'Brien versus Aidan O'Brien).     Montanabw (talk)  04:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Here's what I still would like to see:
 * 1) The sentence in background beginning "During the mid 1970s, he had been involved in a number of disputes with his neighbours..." is really the first sentence of the "1978 incident" section.  I'd suggest moving it.
 * 2) Footnote #1, to coordinates, does not verify that it was his house, only that that address is at those coordinates. Need to fix that.
 * 3) I may to a "Corbett" and make some minor wikignoming edits to the article, if they are acceptable to you.  As a reviewer, I cannot contribute substantive content nor can I own my edits, so if they do not seem helpful to you, we can discuss
 * 4) Derbyshire moors is a redlink, a search does not clarify for me where you intend to be linking, but see if you can fix that.
 * 5) I am reviewing the footnotes further and may have additional comments
 * 6) The article had no infobox, I added one, I do hope I was not overstepping by being so bold.
 * 7) Is there any relevance to Michel and Lisa Di Maria being Italian? Seems unnecessary unless being Italian was why they were targeted, or perhaps not being able to speak English was a factor in their demise.  If relevance, not it, if of no particular relevance, I'd chop the ethnicity bit.
 * 8) this source notes some things I think may be worth adding in a shortened summary form to increase the comprehensiveness of the article: 1) "Noise had become an obsession for the factory worker who had convinced himself that the neighbours were laughing at him."  2) examples of erratic behavior: "He had dangerously adapted his own “more powerful” bullets and had even demanded moving targets wearing wigs at the club where he spent much of his time." 3) His parents were unaware of his activities. (Their profession could also be added to the background section)  4)  That he did have one illegal firearm; 5)
 * 9) The Birmingham mail citation also notes that the car chase reached speeds of 100 mph, which you mention as a "high speed car chase" in the lede, but do not appear to mention later in the article text, and do need to do so.
 * 10) I found the threat to Philip Burkitt a week before the shootings to also be relevant - that Birmingham mail article is a gold mine
 * 11) A question on British English: What does it mean that "Two counts of attempted murder were ordered to lie on file"?  He was charged, not charged, charges dismissed, charges deferred...?  Clarify?
 * 12) Probably worth noting (several sources verify this) that his release to the bail hostel was a matter of public outcry and not just a MP complaint.  I'd add.

Fix those and we should be good to go. Montanabw (talk) 04:25, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * Optional: What do you think of this image for the 2013 incident section, as it is where he was sent then?  File:Ashworth_Hospital_-_geograph.org.uk_-_90341.jpg.  I have no need for this image to be added, and it IS from 2005, so maybe outdated, but if you find it helpful, here it is.  Montanabw (talk)  05:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for these additional comments. Using your numbering:


 * 1) Not sure I agree. Is that a show-stopper?
 * 2) The address is confirmed by footnote #3, The Times
 * 3) Thank your for these. en-GB uses "pleaded", but the rest are fine.
 * 4) Surprisingly, there is no suitable target at present. I looked! I will create a stub shortly.
 * 5) Noted
 * 6) Noted
 * 7) Mentioned by several sources, but removed
 * 8) Will do
 * 9) That's the only source to mention a speed; I suspect journalistic hyperbole
 * 10) Will do
 * 11) Red-linked; I'll create a stub shortly
 * OK

Thanks for the pic, which I'd failed to find. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:01, 15 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 1 is not a "show-stopper" but I think if you keep it in background, then maybe add more of the stuff from Birmingham Mail (if it's adequately RS) on how he threatened them, thought they were making fun of him, etc. to go to his paranoia. I made a tweak of the FN on the address to make it clear at the point it is cited.   Montanabw (talk)  14:22, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
 * {{ping|Montanabw} OK, all done, I think. The "one illegal firearm" is covered in the mention of his firearms certificate - it's not clear which weapon was covered by that, and which not. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:18, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

Passed. Nice work! Montanabw (talk) 19:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)