Talk:Basenji/Archive 1

unneccesary racist definition
as an owner of a basenji.. and a black man in america i found your definition of what a basenji is very interesting.. particularly its origins.. which are undoubtedly African.. akin to all black people of this earth.. undoubtedly African.. I guess that warrants the editors at wikipidea to feel free to dive into their pool of hatred and contempt in a matter as trivial as the history of one of the worlds oldest dog breeds: savage.. illiteriate.. shoddy.. these are some of the derogatory terms used in your description and they have nothing to do with the dog but the people this dog is traditionally associated,with, the black people of Africa.. and most sickening to you the black people of Ancient Egypt.. it amused me you attribute the origins of the name basenji to a french term "my monkey".. really this dog was going by the term basenji hundreds of years before the french even knew Africa existed.. it derives from a Swahili word, an African/Arabic language having nothing at all to do with France.. you want something french.. find a poodle.. and im sure even that has an African origin.. as all humanity does also.. connecting you hate spewing mongers to the very people who inspire your contempt for eternity.. just as the basenji is connected to the same people for eternity.. as immortalized in the beautiful engravings, carvings, script and lore of the worlds premier civilization.. Wikipedia.. you should apologize


 * Hi, first things first -- please sign your comments, just append four tildes to the end of your message. Having re-read the article I'm not entirely clear on where you feel the racism in it is; the section you appear to be most concerned by (the origins of the word basenji in the "History" section) mentions several possible origins for the word -- basɛ́nzi in Lingala, be'zenji in Arabic, shenzi in Swahili, mbwa shenzi in Kiswahili, as well as the "deformation of the French insult..." that you mention -- I'm not familiar enough with any of these languages to translate the words, and don't know whether they're accurately presented her, however if you can cite a good source for the etymology of the word then that would be a valuable addition to the article.


 * Also, although there are indeed terms that can be regarded negatively (for example "savage" and "shoddy") used in the article (I wouldn't include "illiterate" as one of these unless it's factually incorrect, I'm not familiar enough with 19th century african literacy rates to know whether or not it is!) they are general employed to reference how the expressions were used at the time -- indeed the article says that the (possibly contested) French expression came from an insult, later the article says that shenzi "... was a derogatory term ..." -- the article isn't using them contemporarily, but rather asserting that this is how they were used then. I hope that if you re-read the article, in particular the history section you seem most concerned by, then you'll see that there isn't the "hatred and contempt" there that you initially perceived.


 * Lastly, remember that you -- like everyone else here -- are one of the Wikipedia editors, if you feel that an article is incorrect, or that you can add additional value to an entry, then you can edit the article yourself.
 * Callum 12:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Here is an interesting article on the evolution of the arabic word "shenzi" to the Kiswahili word "senji". My wife who is a Kiswahiliphone from Katanga, Congo confirms that the word "senji" is current in Katanga Kiswahili to mean "wild" or "of the forest". http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.basenjis.de/Mutabaruga/Basenji%2520Name.htm&ei=nKFYSp2BEMeEtwe6oqXdCg&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=37&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsenji%2B%252B%2Bkikongo%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DG%26num%3D50 Nhobgood (talk) 14:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Clarity and validity in the introduction paragraph
The introduction section of the page states: "Basenjis are capable of barking like other dogs, infact a strange thing with Basenjis is that they have the ability to mimic other dogs and animal sounds." My first complaint is that the grammar and tone of this setence is extremely unprofessional. But before I go ahead and edit, I was wondering about the validity of the statement. I have been a dog fancier for years, and the claim that Basenjis are able to mimic other dogs and animals seems a bit ridiculous, as does the earlier claim that they resemble cats in behavior and temperment. That said, I have never owned a Basenji and am not an expert on the breed per se. Can anyone verify this information? Mllefantine 04:35, 29 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I have never heard this claim about the Basenji, either. I did some quick research and couldn't find anything to verify this claim. I would think it's safe to take it out?--68.174.123.113 05:58, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have owned a Basenji and there were times that she would bark. Always when a dog that could bark was present and was barking themselves. This suggests a mimic of the bark sound since it did not happen any other times.


 * We had a Basenji who yodeled once in a while but never barked. Though she wasn't raised in a household with other dogs, there were plenty of barking dogs in the neighborhood. A couple of times, she seemed to try to bark, but the sound was more like a dry cough. She, at least, was apparently incapable of barking like other breeds of dog. IrisWings 08:14, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

≈≈ There is a misleading contradiction between the introduction description of "prone to" vocalizations over barking, vs the 'Temperament' section "unique properties of not barking". I've owned a couple of basenjis and believe the "prone to" is more accurate and that the 'Temperament' section should be revised accordingly. Many basenjis are quite able to do a traditional bark. My current basenji uses a traditional bark for "alert" communication like visitors at the door, or other dogs intruding in the yard. Otherwise, she has a large suite of yodels, barroos, and growls to communicate other messages. Also, with respect to training, this same basenji is easily and quickly trainable with complex tricks (has passed easily through service dog training), but is not consistently obedient. GargoyleWB (talk) 22:07, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Comment
"One odd result of that long relationship is that people tend to attribute personalities to dogs in ways that they simply don’t with other animals. I found a glaring example of this the other day on Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia that anyone can contribute to. It was in the entry for Basenjis, an African breed of dog, clearly written by a besotted owner.

“It is not uncommon for a Basenji to stare down a person, which gives some people an unsettling feeling,” the entry read. And, with my italics, “The stare is not meant as an aggressive act; Basenjis feel that they are of equal stature with humans and are not intimidated by a human’s interest in them.”

Now, I think Wikipedia is a great resource, but come on. To suggest we can know anything about that dog’s feelings of self-worth in relation to humans is ridiculous. Dogs may be great for cancer, heart disease and allergies, but there are still some aspects of the human condition where they are no use at all."

&mdash; Financial Times, January 20 2006

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lotsofissues (talk &bull; contribs).


 * It was added by MarkK a very long time ago.  I've removed this comment, it was unsourced, speculative, and POV, so it really should never have been there.    - Trysha (talk) 22:35, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Urgh: This sentence shows so much disdain for the Congolese... "The Basenji had all but disappeared from civilization when it was rediscovered in the Congo region of Africa in 1895. There, the Basenji was highly prized by natives for its intelligence, courage, speed, and silence."

Note these words ... civilization, rediscovered, natives... I feel compelled to, eh, edit it. -Mokeni


 * "Native" means "a person who was born in and lives in a particular area". It is unfortunate that its use in countless Tarzan movies has given "native" the connotation of "dark-skinned savage", but that's no reason to take exception to its use here. Johnny Pez 09:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

contradict tag for article
At the top it says it can bark, in the other part of the content it says it can't. Let's clear it up. Thanks. (Narkstraws 05:21, 5 February 2007 (UTC))
 * Fixed. Basenjis don't bark per se, but they can mimic sounds, and if raised among barking dogs can mimic their barks.  I once visited a Basenji breeder in Attleboro, Massachusetts who had a Basenji that had picked up barking from other dogs. Johnny Pez 15:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * That's pretty interesting, thanks for clearing that up. (Narkstraws 04:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC))

Nice Egyptian image
There is a nice picture of a Basenji-like dog in ancient Egyptian steles, here and here that maybe we could use. I'm not sure if we can just copy the image or not, so I'll let you guys sort it out. SharkD 19:09, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

That dog looks WAY more like a Pharoh or Ibizan hound to me.76.174.42.207 20:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)Morningwindow


 * The Pharaoh Hound and Ibizan Hound articles state that they're not ancient breeds, so it can't be. That being said, I always assumed those statues were jackals or some kind of jackal-dog bred by the Egyptians (not a far-fetched idea, considered how important Anubis was). IrisWings 08:26, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

new image
please refrain from adding that image anymore, it is both repetitive and crowding of the text. There are already sufficient image of basenjis of several colors and ages. I would suggest adding your image to the Wikimedia Commons. VanTucky 22:43, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds
I have two basenjis (one of each gender) whom are litter mates. There is one sound my male dog produces that can only be described by the sound the Tauntaun makes except with a deeper pitch. He only produces this sound when trying to pursuade the bitch to get out of the spot he wants. The longer he tries to pursuade her, the more he sounds like the Tauntaun. I am almost conviced that this sound is the sound the Tauntaun is based on. But that's just me. Does any else have a basenji that produces this sound?

The Tauntaun is the fictional creature from the movie The Empire Strikes Back.Ateo 23:48, 7 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I had a Basenji/Pit Bull mix some years ago, and I can still do a pretty good impersonation of the sound he made....I'll record it and upload it. Example:  if he needed "outside" he would come up and say, "roo."  If ignored, he would say, "roo roo," and so on....each time adding a "roo."Dorothy Kernaghan-Baez 17:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A real recording of the sound they make would be great. I have a Basenji mix that doesn't make the sound (she just barks), and I've always wanted to hear it. SharkD 18:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Jumping up and down dog
Is this seriously a name for the breed? It sounds made-up to me. SharkD 20:44, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

A bit of googling revealed "Hence, one of the African names M'bwa M'kube M'bwawamwitu, the jumping up and down dog." (http://www.basenjiclubofgb.org/basenjis.shtml). This is echoed by a coupla other websites, and looks fairly legitimate. PirateAngel (talk) 13:32, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

=Is this husky mix part Basenji?=== One of my dogs is Siberian Husky x unknown origin. I'm starting to think he may be part Basenji, both because of his elegant high leaps through the tall grass (in the local fenced park gone to seed) and the fact that he has a wider range of vocalizations than any other dog I have ever known. At the age of two (with us since puppyhood) he struggles and screams when picked up. Kind of pariah dog-like in that regard. If there is any molesting or manhandling to be done he wants to be the perp. Falange (talk) 14:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Hunting in Africa
What kind of game are they used to hunt in Africa? I can't find anything about this. Falange (talk) 14:56, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * In my three years working in rural Bandundu, DR Congo, I was fortunate enough to accompany hunters into the forest with their basenji hunting dogs leading the way. In that area, the hunters would carve small wooden bells and attach them around their dogs' waists in order to keep track of where they were during the hunt, seeing as the dogs could not bark.  The hunters learned to listen to the manner in which the bells rang to determine if the dogs were walking, running or engaged with a wild animal that they tracked down.  A picture of one of the types of small duiker species that hunters used their basenji to track, can be found here -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/globalvoyager/2873528930/in/set-72157607289255463/ Nhobgood (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Quotes
While I own 3 Basenjis, I removed "Quotes". A wiki page just isn't the place for random quotes from random people. Wiki pages require verifiable sources. People like you and me writing our own quotes are not verifiable. If that were the case, wikipedia would be a mess. | Ateo (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Fataki (African) vs American
I just got myself a Fataki Basenji. Until I started corresponding with the breeder, I had no idea there was such type.

There are 3 main differences between the American and African Basenji. They are:
 * 1) Their snouts are shorts and stubier
 * 2) Their tail is not a tight curl
 * 3) They tend to please the owner

Apparently, the super tight curl of the tail was bred into the American breed as the tight curl is not optimal for hunting as a tightly curled tail can get caught thus ruin the hunt. African basenji is bred without the tight curl.

I was also informed that the African breed tends to please the master more in order to not be "thrown in the pot". I've had my Fataki pup for a week now and she's very master oriented. My other 2 [American] basenjis aren't so much (they don't come immediatedly when called, takes some luring.. hehe)

Should the 2 different types be classified in the article? I believe so as they are noticably different. | Ateo (talk) 20:25, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I would have to disagree on the curled tail being bred into the American Basenji. My first Basenji was a 2d generation from Africa out of England. A Red and White named Salute Pharoh. A great article is called Natures masterpiece and includes references and sites to look up. It dates the Basenji to 4000 BC with the Egyptian PHAROH and is linked to lending its ears to the Egyptian God Anubis, as these civilisations crumbled and disappeared so did the Basenji disappear. It was rediscovered in 1682 by Merolla an African explorer in the Congo forest basin. I raised Basenji's for years and never had one bark. All of mine including the current Tricolor washed themselves like a cat, Very seldom showing the normal dog odor. They are really African and in no way can they be slandered as a racist designation. Living in isolation from the outer world for countless thousands of years in the heart of Africa The Basenji has not been altered by mankind. Nothing has been changed, neither his size, his shape, the color and texture of its coast nor its temperament. Citing: Natures masterpiece; 103 Basenji time line, Basenji Club of America, Reliefs of Hermakka game stone 3000 BC; Relief of Mastaba of Akhuthotep circa 1200 BC; in bas-relief as far back as 4000 BC on Egyptian buildings and tombs. Enkinthegarden 8-18-2015 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Enkinthegarden2 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Which subspecies is this?
Is the Basenji a Canis lupus familaris, or a Canis lupus dingo? Chrisrus (talk) 02:48, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Popular Culture
As I was reading this section on the article paqge, I was surprised to note that the Dogs in Elk (http://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/dogsinelk.html) story - verifiable in all regards - had not been included. Highly recommended for inclusion here and with the New Guinea Singing Dog. Alex (talk) 12:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Picture problem
It looks like almost all photos in the article are made of the very same dog, or dogs that look very similar. This is not the best solution. An encyclopaedia article has to show a variety of different dogs and different coats, colours and if there is texture, textures. Only one kind of dog or low quality dog pictures in all the dog articles are most probably NPOV editing by the dog's owners. Put-my-pet-on-Wikipedia syndrom is one of the biggest problem in dog and pet related articles, as far as it goes pictures. Will remove a lot of them, leaving only the good quality pictures on this dog breed. These, below are low quality pictures. Hafspajen (talk) 11:59, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

And all are the same, almost. Hafspajen (talk) 12:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Ululated vocalizations
This word souds a bit weird for me to describe a dog's bark. See ululation. I know what kind of sound is that, but it doesn't sounds like a Basenji. Hafspajen (talk) 06:47, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * From ululation: "long, wavering, high-pitched vocal sound resembling a howl with a trilling quality" - I think that's exactly what a basenji sounds like. Noting that the sound being described is specifically not the usual dog "bark" sound (the article says "basenjis ... are prone to howls, yodels, and other ululated vocalizations over the characteristic bark of modern dog breeds" (my italics). DH85868993 (talk) 07:07, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Is that a common word, other ululated vocalizations. Hafspajen (talk) 07:15, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not a wording I would use as I think it's better to keep things simple. I see there are already a couple of sentences in the lead about their "yodel" with refs (as it doesn't appear to be repeated within the body copy); some of the rest of that lead paragraph reads - to me anyway - a bit like original research, is unreferenced and again not backed up anywhere in the body copy.  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  08:48, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * @Hafspajen: I don't think that "other ululated vocalizations" is a common word (phrase). I just wanted to point out that it is an accurate phrase to use in this context. But having said that, I am quite happy for the lead to be reworked and for the phrase to be removed. Cheers. DH85868993 (talk) 09:09, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * ‎; what do you say. Hafspajen (talk) 11:41, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Hafs, I always do the wording of the lead last and, for instance, the 'Characteristics' section needs an overhaul and has no refs at all at present; the 'Health' section is reasonable but again needs some work; and 'In popular culture' - well, you know my feelings on those! Also, I don't have access to reference books on Basenji so this wouldn't be something I could undertake with sufficient commitment. Other than trying to keep on top of obvious vandalism and silly changes, I haven't really been editing dog breed articles so much nowadays (and in fact still have the lead for English Setter to finish off from ages ago!).  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  15:59, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * OK: Are you fine with it we leave it as it is, or you can put some unreferenced tagg on it. Hafspajen (talk) 17:12, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's leave it for a couple of days to see if anyone else wants to comment here? Maybe someone will come forward to help?  SagaciousPhil   -  Chat  21:08, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * That will, I guess. Hafspajen (talk) 22:03, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the ping, . I come when called. ツ Not going into my areas of quasi-expertise, I have done my audio research, much to the dismay of my flatmate neighbours. I don't think ululation is a good description, excepting for humans. Having also heard Basenjis vocalising in real life, I have settled on the fact that Basenjis sound most like Dingoes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingo#Communication, and I can't find the use of the questioned word in our related article about them. I believe it would be good to simply remove the word from the phrase and be left with: prone to howls, yodels, and other vocalizations. I am now watching this article so I can follow this conversation. All the best.   Fylbecatulous talk 00:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. That is about what I said, that that doesn't sounds like a Basenji. I know how Arabic women sound - and so do your neighbours now - but it is slightly different - different in a not that easy to describe way. Hafspajen (talk) 00:24, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Since no one else has happened to stop by, I have made the change to the article as discussed. Thanks again. Fylbecatulous talk 02:02, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Basenji. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120511200854/http://www.akc.org:80/reg/dogreg_stats.cfm to http://www.akc.org/reg/dogreg_stats.cfm
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120217001315/http://www.canids.org/species/Dingo.pdf to http://www.canids.org/species/Dingo.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 17:05, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

History
Hello User:Softlavender. I have recently removed genetic-based research from this article because it was factually incorrect, based on someone's misunderstanding. You have decided to reinstate it, therefore the burden of proof falls on you - you will need to read through the cited material and satisfy yourself that what is now there is correct. Freedman (2014) was attempting to find which wolf the dog was most closely related to: European, Middle Eastern or Chinese. The team compared these wolves genomes to a Basenji and a Dingo genome because they lived in regions not know to be occupied by wolves, therefore a regional wolf ancestor might be found. So they looked at 2 genomes - Basenji and Dingo - and the Boxer genome had already been published. The research found that the dog did not descend from any modern wolf, but both dogs and wolves descended from an extinct common ancestor (supporting Thalmann 2013 and supported by Skoglund2015). The document talks about the lineage of these 3 specimens, not the breed. Nobody has yet looked at the Huski genome, nor even the Labrador genome for that matter. Their results are based only on these 3 lineages that they observed. Did you imagine that 15,000 years ago the Basenji, Dingo and Boxer came into being looking exactly as they are today, and magically all other breeds of dogs descended from them? To claim that the Basenji is the oldest breed is factually incorrect because (a) the breed was not in existence immediately after divergence and (b) only 3 dog genomes have been sequenced so far. Therefore, I removed the whole paragraph because it only confuses readers. Your new amendment has not helped. Regards, William Harris  •   talk •   23:01, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Actually, per WP:BRD, the burden of proof falls on you to gain consensus here on this talk page if your BOLD deletion is reverted. The text says that "Among breeds recognized by the AKC, the Basenji is arguably the most ancient dog breed; that is to say that the common ancestor it shares with all other existing dogs lived longer ago than the common ancestor of any two other living dogs." This appears to be backed up by Origin_of_the_domestic_dog, which states that "The ancestral dog triverged into the Dingo, Basenji and Boxer lineages", etc. Softlavender (talk) 23:35, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * "The ancestral dog triverged into the Dingo, Basenji and Boxer lineages" That is not a Basenji, that is its lineage - we don't know what other of today's breeds have also branched from that lineage, nor the Boxer's lineage, because we have not sequenced the other breeds' genomes as yet, which I have already said above. I know what the Origin page says, I wrote it, and now I am following up on those related pages that might be in error, like this one. I was very specific when I wrote the word lineage, as did Freedman's team. As for the statement "Although the modern Basenji is from central Africa, at some point long ago its ancestor arrived there from eastern Asia, having evolved from either Chinese or southeast Asian wolves", I refer you to Origin of the domestic dog and advise that it should not be within the scope of this article to discuss where dogs evolved from, that is the purpose of the Origin page. Regarding "the Basenji is arguably the most ancient dog breed; that is to say that the common ancestor it shares with all other existing dogs lived longer ago than the common ancestor of any two other living dogs" - who actually said that, because vonHoldt (2010) didn't. You will need to cite a source. And if I click on the link to ancient dog breed, I learn that "In 2012, another DNA analysis concluded that although these breeds had not been intermingled with other breeds due to their geographic isolation, that did not make them ancient dog breeds." - Larson (2012). Clearly, some changes need to be made under the History section. Regards, William Harris  •   talk •   09:11, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Here http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7290/fig_tab/nature08837_F1.html, no common dog ancestor of the basenji with the rest of the identified dogs is identified. This could be because its, maybe also barkless, common ancestor with the other dogs, probably in eastern Asia, and maybe not yet fully a Basenji, left no other descendants. Chrisrus (talk) 17:26, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This seems to be the citation for that claim. I don't know how well we summarized it, though: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1004016
 * Hello Chris, your fist link was the citation currently on the Basenji page. What it actually shows I doubt anybody that has clicked on it understood, and nobody appears to have read through vonHoldt (2010) to find out. These were not the words she used because she only looked at 85 of the 400 breeds available, and therefore would not make such a rash generalisation that the Basenji is the oldest breed - she said based on the 85 in the study it was the most divergent. She says at the bottom of the figure that she classified the breeds under "..the phenotypic/functional designation used by dog breeders.." - the grouping names was not hers. For your second ref its back to Freedman (2014) again, who found that all dogs have admixture with the sub-species of  gray wolves post-divergence. Therefore, it cannot be ascertained which breed is the oldest due to the wolf admixture - RKW has stated that when vonHoldt came out and I have his reference to it (he was senior co-author on both papers!) Additionally, if divergence represented the "oldest breed" then the Greenland Dog would qualify as that - it's up to one-quarter Taimyr wolf which predates the dog/gray wolf split, based on Skoglund (2015): Origin of the domestic dog. That would beat the Basenji lineage easily, but we are not talking about age, we are talking about divergence and that has been caused through admixture. This brings me to another issue you and I are involved with; I need to add and explain on the Origin page the flow between Parker (2004), vonHoldt (2010) and Freedman (2014) and bring this "ancient breeds" misunderstanding to an end, but currently that page is bound by a size limit.  William Harris  •   talk •   21:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * This http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v464/n7290/fig_tab/nature08837_F1.html is consistant with many things we have long suspected about the dog family tree, but does contain a few surprises.
 * According to it, a common ancestor of the spaniels and the scent hounds existed that was different than a common ancestor of molossers, terriers, and retrievers.
 * However, according to this dog family tree, the common ancestor of the spaniels and scent hounds on the one hand, and the common ancestor of retrievers and molossers on the other hand, existed. The majority of the dogs included and identified on this tree share that ancestor, including, and this is perhaps our first surprise, greyhounds and many  but not all of the sighthounds in the study.
 * According to this tree, spitze such as huskies and some, not all, other "primitive dogs" do not descend from that common ancestor, but they do share a common ancestor with it.
 * On this tree, the Basenji has no common ancestor with that, nor the common ancestor of sled dogs, sighthounds, and the rest. It has no common ancestor on this tree with any other dog included in this study and identified on this cladogram.
 * The only common ancestor of the basenji and any other dog included and identified on this tree is that of dogs and wolves.
 * Of course, there could be one, among the common ancestors of the dogs not included or identified on that tree. Or this dog family tree might just be wrong.
 * But even if so, this does not mean, however, that it's necessarily true to say that the basenji is "the oldest breed". The common ancestor of all other dogs and basenji doesn't have to have been a basenji or even anything like one.  It could have changed as completely in that time as any other dog.  Chrisrus (talk) 05:28, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Which was my point - Freedman was talking about the Basenji lineage, not the Basenji breed. Freedman only looked at 3 breeds, not 400. Additionally, doesn't it seem strange to you that there is no direct quote from vonHoldt (2010) as a citation on the Basenji page but just a puzzling divergence tree? What did she actually say? Nothing that supports the current History material, else it would have been quoted. The tree represents the degree of divergence from those dogs on the outer ring and not divergence from the wolf (as you have gathered, but others do not). Based on the 85 breeds looked at, the Basenji is the most divergent. If you include the wolf as the sequence-baseline, the wolf is the most divergent. The diagram was not about starting off with a wolf and working outwards, it was about starting off with 85 breeds and working inwards. If it was any other genus then we could reasonably infer that the diagram could represent age and we could have comfortably said that the Basenji is the most basil, only that does not work for genus Canis because they all share 78 chromosomes and can all potentially cross-breed, muddying the phylogenetic waters. The Basenji is furthest diverged because its ancestor - and no doubt the ancestor to a number of breeds but nobody had done the full-genome study on all 400 of them - has shown admixture with the Middle-eastern wolf: Freedman (2013). So on the Basenji page we need to remove the reference to origins from the Chinese wolf because Freedman saw no indication of Chinese wolf. And we could say that based on 85 breeds the Basenji is the most divergent. What that might mean to a casual reader I don't know, which is why I simply tried to remove it. However, I will address this issue very soon, and it will look much like when I had to break the bad news to wolf-kind that their much-beloved Gray wolf was only 40,000 years old and not the 1 million that they believed: Gray wolf Regards, William Harris  •   talk •   21:06, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks User:Softlavender, I have enjoyed our conversation and your direct replies. I now see where the misunderstanding arises. I will need to make some amendments elsewhere on Wikipedia, then return here in a couple of weeks to finally resolve this matter, both here and on about 6 other breed pages. Regards, William Harris  •   talk •   21:00, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello again William, I've been away for three days. I need to point out the operative words in the contested sentence in this article (see bolding): "Among breeds recognized by the AKC, the Basenji is arguably the most ancient dog breed; that is to say that the common ancestor it shares with all other existing dogs lived longer ago than the common ancestor of any two other living dogs." I don't believe anything has been yet shown to contradict that in any viewable or quoted sources; if it has please let us know. Thank you. Softlavender (talk) 03:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. You might like to amend some of the uncited verbiage that you had changed it to from my original deletion, which I have left in for you to sort out. Now you can see why my simple deletion was the most elegant solution. This has nothing to do with "lived longer ago", it has a lot to do with being more genetically divergent because of admixture with the Middle-Eastern wolf. Someone needs to put an axe through the "originates in the Congo" nonsense as well, please - just because some explorer found some of them living there does not mean that is their point of origin. Dingos can be found in Australia - that is not their point of origin. Plus there is a claim they were associated with ancient Egypt, which conflicts with a Congo origin and is more in keeping with the ME connection. William Harris  •   talk •   09:18, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Hello Softlavender, I am happy with that. I originally found a section relating to genetic studies that was factually incorrect, the now the current genetic information is factually correct. Whether the other information about the Basenjis' history is supported by information contained in the citations given is not my concern. Many thanks and regards, William Harris  •   talk •   11:12, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Sighthound status of the Basenji?
There is no significant evidence that can prove the sighthound status of the Basenji. Like most African hounds - those that originate south of the Sahara - it is used to scent hunt, track, and drive game. This is almost invariably done in densely vegetated terrain. That defines it as a hound, not a sighthound. Sighthounds pursue their game by sight, they overpower their game by speed - it is essential for them to do that in open country. Basenjis have been included in the American Sighthound Field Association of the USA simply because their national host club members wished to use them in lure coursing. The original function and use of a breed defines its status or identity - not an assumed use in a foreign country.

The main reason why the Basenji is listed as a sighthound is the fact that they were trained to hunt bird game while in flight, this is not to say that they do not use there sense of smell but that they hunt with both there nose and eyes. My basenji looks to the sky every time he is outside and will chase a flock of birds in flight as far as the fence goes. If you want some true knowlegde about these dogs I would suggest that you go to the websites dedicated to the correct information about these dogs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hidagirl04 (talk • contribs) 00:26, 13 April 2012 (UTC) The same can be said of a number of other breeds that have been listed in this "sighthound" article. The Podenco's, the Podengo's, the Kelb tal-fenek/Pharaoh hound, the Cirneco, none of them are true sighthounds. The Lagonikos has a name that actually tells you what they are: "Ichnilatis" - tracking dog.

Fraudulent claims and romanticised histories do not further the credibility or reliability of Wikipedia!

Richard Hawkins bh@fernhill.com


 * Basenjis are classified as sighthounds by the American Kennel Club. If you have an issue with that classification, you should take it up with the AKC.  In the meantime, said classification by said organization is a fact, and has been reported as such in the article. Johnny Pez 08:55, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Johnny Pez, The “fact” you state is incorrect. I suggest you read the Wikipedia article on the Basenji more closely. Note the (correct) AKC classification, the Basenji is an AKC “Hound”. Please see my comments on identity in the Discussion on Sighthounds - <> As yet the AKC has no formal Sighthound Group or classification. It does recognise some non-sighthound breeds as eligible for lure coursing trials. That eligibility was inherited from ASFA. In the future the AKC may well form a Sighthound Group, which may well contain the Basenji. However, the breed will still need to show verifiable historic use as a coursing dog, as opposed to a driving, pack and scent hound, for it to be correctly included in this version of Wikipedia as a sighthound. Consider the FCI Sighthound Group – a truly international defining group as opposed to the ASFA/AKC lure coursing eligible group of hounds – and discuss. Richard Hawkins bh@fernhill.com 7th June 2006


 * Signed for archive purposes only. William Harris •   (talk) •  04:13, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Basenji. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20071201144657/http://basenjihealth.org:80/linkage-faq.html#suspension to http://www.basenjihealth.org/linkage-faq.html

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 07:57, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 09:03, 29 April 2016 (UTC)