Talk:Basque–Icelandic pidgin

untitled
The article states "mala" is Castilian and Portuguese for "bad". This is incorrect for Portuguese, where the actual form is "má" (feminine), derived from Iberic Medieval Latin mala through a possible *maa. The lost -l- still shows in derived words like malícia, "malice". I don't know how to rephrase it. 189.79.66.216 (talk) 06:54, 29 August 2008 (UTC) (PS: I'm a native Portuguese speaker)

spoken in Iceland?
The first statement of the article is doubtful, as the only indication of this pidgin to have ever been used in Iceland are found in the glossaries. Peter Bakker has suggested that this pidgin (or lingua franca, as this can hardly be called a fully fledged pidgin) developed around Spitzbergen in communication between the whalers situated there (basques, danes, dutch and british). That would explain the number of words from other languages than basque, spanish/french and icelandic. Some words ("klinke") point to dutch, there are a number of english words ("bollox" (or "bollocks")) and some danish words. And if it was really a basque icelandic pigdin, one would expect some icelandic words there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.208.137.183 (talk) 00:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * That theory makes sense. If you get a reference, it would be good to mention it in the article. --Error (talk) 00:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

A fourth glossary?
Viola Miglio and Ricardo Etxepare - "A new Basque - Icelandic glossary of the 17th century."
 * Viola Miglio of University California Santa Barbara spoke on the discovery and interpretation of a new, fourth Icealandic glossary. The 4th Icelandic Glossary, discovered in a library in Harvard, is unique in its subject matter and grammar, thus, until recently, it was not identified as an Icelandic Glossary.

The reference seems to be: Miglio, V. G. (2008). Go shag a horse!”: The 17th–18th Century Basque-Icelandic Glossaries Revisited. Journal of the North Atlantic, 1(1), 25-36. Retrieved from http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.3721%2F071010 --Error (talk) 01:09, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Glossaria duo vasco-islandica
In which language is this title (and the corresponding book)? Varlaam (talk) 17:46, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

The book is in Latin, but contains German and Spanish elements (translations of most of the glossaries' entries). Gidor Bilbao has made a revision of the book, published in Bakker et al (1991): "Basque pidgins in Iceland and Canada". However, I'm not sure whether this revision also is in Latin or translated to Spanish, English or Basque Sappelle-gorre (talk) 13:59, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Misunderstandings
There are unfortunatly a great deal of misunderstanding in this article (as well as in many other language versions on this subject). The Basque-Icelandic pidgin was a language that we know about thanks to the Icelandic manuscritps AM 987 4to, containing two different Basque-Icelandic glossaries with a total of some 800 words and short phrases. At the end of the second of the glossaries, Vocabula Biscaica, there are a few sentances where the Basque entries are mixed with words from other languages, that is the pidgin language. However, this does not mean that all Basque entries in the glossaries are example of a Basque-Icelandic pidgin language. For example the word "harria" 'stone', which is mentioned in this article (entry II 53 in AM 987 4to, Deen p. 91), is simply the Basque equivilent for the Icelandic word "steinn" 'stone'. A much better example, which is also mentioned in the article is "for ju mala gissuna", where three different languages are mixed in the same sentance (English "for you", Romance "mala" and Basque "gizona"). I will try to edit the article, gathering clear examples of the pidgin language itself and removing the ones where it's simply a question of translations between everyday Basque and everyday Icelandic.

However, many of the Basque entries in the glossaries are indeed Spanish or French. To distinguish between Spanish/Frenchg influence on the Euskera in the glossaries and examples of Basque-Icelandic pidgin language is not always easy. Hualde has written an interesting article on foreign influence on Basque language : http://www.tintaucsb.com/ojs/index.php/tinta/article/view/14/50

Another good article on the subject of the Basque-Icelandic glossaries (incl. information about the pidgin) is Miglio's: http://web.mac.com/skarphedinn/Violas_Site/Papers_files/shag-a-horse-J002.pdf

Best regards / Sappelle-gorre (talk) 14:27, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Now I've rewritten quite a lot of the article with the Swedish article as role model. I also added the map and illustrations from there. I kept most of the information, but some I deleted. For example the sentance that the glossaries were "found around 1905 by Jón Helgason" - by this time he was 6 years old and I far as I know he hadn't begun his job as reasearch assistent at the University of Copenhagen. Helgi Guðmundsson (1979:75) says that they were found when Jón Helgason was working on his book about Jón Ólafsson, which must have been in the 1920's.

I would be really happy for revision of the Euskara Batua entries. Some are missing and some of the samples are different between the Basque and the French language versions. For example, should Kristo ta Maria have ergative -k in the sentance about giving away whale tails? Sappelle-gorre (talk) 16:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Modern Basque column
Given that on the whole only a few words are actually Basque in origin, is there any sense in having the modern Basque column? Akerbeltz (talk) 09:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps to show that Basque has few similarities with that pidgin indeed? I have no strong view on this matter, anyway. --Xabier Armendaritz(talk) 09:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I think it's good to have a modern Basque list to compare with. You've done a really nice work editing it. Now one can see that there are a few similarities in the vocabulary between euskera and the pidgin, but that the grammar is extremely simlified in the latter case. Sappelle-gorre (talk) 16:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * That aside, I think trucka is more likely to be truke(a) i.e. trade (rather than buy, which makes sense) - it avoids having to answer the questions of where the -r went if it was Spanish trocar. Akerbeltz (talk) 17:15, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. And I've seen that presenta for mi locaria is translated into Basque as Emazkidazu lokarriak which means "give me laces (or shoelaces)" but the English version is Give me a pair of socks. Which is the correct one? --Xabier Armendaritz(talk) 09:33, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Well spotted. Sokkabond are technically garters in Icelandic, literally "sock tie". I think the English translation is based on the Iceland and the translator meant to write "sock tie" or something and forgot the second word. I've amended both. It'll probably be work in progress for a while! Akerbeltz (talk) 10:15, 18 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable with trukea as well, but trocar -> trucka would follow the same pattern with the -r as trabajar -> travala and fornicar -> fenicha. In general they seem very similar - truke(a) and trocar. Is one of them maybe a loanword from the other language? Since Deen (1937:104) only puts "hisp.: trocar" as an explanation, I'll put back trocar in the list, but I'll keep truke(a) in a foot-note. / Sappelle-gorre (talk) 11:15, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't read too much into the trabajar pattern. For one, I find it dubious that trabajar is the basis of trabala. If anything, it's would have to be a pre 17th century loan (ie. before Spanish turned /l/ into /x/. And in any case, trabajo (or even French travail) would make a much better candidate. And fornicar > fenicha looks very dubious, intermedial /k/ > /tʃ/? I'd like to see how and why. So given that trucka is the only clear one, I'd leave that in with the Basque. Akerbeltz (talk) 11:36, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Of course it's difficult to tell with so few examples. Furthermore one can't really know how the Icelander who wrote down the Basque interpreted the sounds. /tʃ/ doesn't exist in Icelandic, and elsewhere in the glossary "ck" is used for /k/ (for example "ecke" (ekki in modern Icelandic) (Deen 1937:100)). "Trocar" and "fornicar" are the only printed theories on the origin of trucka and fenicha that I can find. However, it is not unlikely that Deen did mistakes - many of his explanations have been reassesed later on, and I think trukea sounds like a good alternative for trucka. But since the Romance origin of these words is the theory which has been set in print, I still think that explination should be the first one because of the Wikipedia rule about original research.


 * About travala, I now see that Deen referred to Basque trabaillatu under the entry trabajar in M. de Larramendi's Diccionario trilingüe, San Sebastián 1853 (Deen 1937:105). With some googling, I see that trabaillatu is a word used in old Basque Bible translations, so I think you're right with the pre-17th century theory. Hence I suggest that travala is moved to the Basque list (even though the word isn't used in modern day Basque?), while trucka and fenicha is keept in the Romance list. / Sappelle-gorre (talk) 12:02, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I'm confused - even though trabaillatu was a word used in Basque, it's origin is still Romance (so I put it back in the Romance list after a short while in the Basque list). For the same reason one should maybe move the word biskusa. Deen's explanation for it is simlpy "hisp.: biscocho" (p. 104). I'm not sure of the original origin of the word - is it Romance or Basque? Sappelle-gorre (talk) 12:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * No, if we agree that the path is Basque tabaillatu > BI pidgin, then it needs to be in the Basque list but we can add a note that it's a Romance loan ultimately. Parka and kayak are English words (today) even though they're Inuit in origina ultimately. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:29, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * True, I'll put it back to the Basque list again. Sappelle-gorre (talk) 16:46, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Should there be Modern Icelandic column?
I'm not sure what "The Icelandic of the glossary" means (what does it mean?) but this is not like modern Icelandic. Still fairly understandable. At least modern Icelandc (ond old I think) would capitalize the beginning of a sentence. I see in an old version of this page icelandic word like strákur and ligar (for liar). Didn't look into much but guess changing the page was intentional. comp.arch (talk) 14:25, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

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