Talk:Basque señoríos

Jaurerria/Señorío
It's just a first start, I'm planning on extending it in. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Language
Shouldn't English names be used rather than Basque? Besides, the Fuero of Biscay was written in Spanish, so I think that Tierra Llana and similar terms should be preferred to recent Basque translations. --Error (talk) 00:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Well... I'm not entirely sure to be honest. I know the fueros were written in Spanish and as far as I can remember I have stuck to using fuero(s) throughout my edits, especially since the page on the fueros uses the Spanish name throughout. As far as other such terms go, the tricky thing is that the older records of such institutions or areas are in a state/majority language because that was what the written records were kept in but that doesn't mean the people did not use an indigenous term to refer to the thing in question.


 * In that case, I think I have seen Fueroac in old spelling. Foruak seems newer. --Error (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The philosophy I have stuck to when editing/creating is to use an English/Spanish name where that term is reasonably well known in the English speaking world but in those cases where the thing is obscure (from the English point of view) I've used the native term because if someone has to grapple with a new word, it doesn't really matter if it's Spanish, Basque or Aynu. So I've used Navarre, Fuero(s), Bay of Biscay, Bilbao but jaurerria, pintxo, aizkolari etc. The thing is also that glossing a term (for example Basque Tapas instead of Pintxos) can often (not always admittedly) mislead the reader. Take one of the other edits you did for example (I think it was you anyway) where tortilla was changed to omelette. Now for starters even Brits and Americans who are usually bad at foreign languages know what a tortilla is and realise it's quite different from an omelette. So calling it a (Spanish) omelette isn't be best solution in my view. But there probably isn't a perfect solution.


 * Well, tortilla is ambiguous in Spanish, but the Spanish meaning is equivalent to omelette (omelet?) in my understanding. A Basque tortilla would be talo. Pintxo is transparently the Spanish pincho, however I admit that the tx spelling is very common. --Error (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * There was also a practical reason (especially on the Basque rural sports page) for using the Basque terms: say someone goes on a holiday and wants to ask someone for an event where they can see (for example) the Antzar Jokoa. If they ask for "the Basque Goose Game" they'd undoubtedly have more trouble than by using the Basque term. Akerbeltz (talk) 07:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It depends, aizkolari, sokatira and idi proba are safer than others. I'd think that asking for los gansos will find less puzzled looks in most of the Basque Country, though maybe not in Lekeitio. --Error (talk) 22:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm, good point on the tortilla issue. I wasn't going to argue about that one anyway. So where do we go from here... I can see an argument for swapping jaurerria for señorío and changing the wording so it is mentioned how the Basque señoríos differ. I think the best argument for that is that there are various señoríos in Spanish history and the Basque one is a variant of those. The Elizate I think should stay in Basque though because even though there are anteiglesias, the Basque tradition seems to have different roots and certainly differs considerably from the institution of the anteiglesia. I think we could use as a general rule of thumb that:
 * we use the English terms if one is reasonably well known (Navarre, Bilbao, Biscay...)
 * we use the Spanish/French term if the item in question is closely based on a Spanish/French tradition (señorío...)
 * we use the Basque term if the item in question is closely based on a Spanish/French tradition but the Basque version differs significantly or is better known under the Basque name (elizate, pintxo...)
 * we use the Basque term if it is a purely Basque tradition with no widespread name in English (aizkolari, aurresku...)
 * What do you think? Personally I'd include all but Navarre and Biscay in the last category too so Navarre/Biscay but Lapurdi, Zuberoa etc because very few English speakers are familiar with any of them anyway so using a neologism like Guipuscoa makes little sense. I'm nor sure about Araba/Álava, that one might live with an English name as wines from the Rioja Alavesa do crop up on the shelves of supermarkets. Akerbeltz (talk) 08:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think that exotic terms like señorío or jaurerri should be the main terms. What about Basque lordships? I suppose that lordship is the right English word. If not, do English historians use something like seigneurie? From browsing the links, I see that Biscay was quite removed from continental manorialism, but I don't know about other lordships. Is there something really different between Basque lordships and Castilian ones like the lord of Molina? The lordship of Biscay is different of the standard fief, but I don't know about the others. I am not opposed to a merge of Jaurerria and Lord of Biscay but perhaps it is better to keep the detailed list of lords out of the general article.
 * I'd use an English translation if concise enough and not misleading. For example, I moved Bolajokoa to Basque bowling just as we have Irish bowling.
 * I don't know about non-Basque anteiglesias, so I don't know if Basque ones have a different origin.
 * I think that Guipuscoa was the term used in old English maps.
 * About Jaun Zuria, "señor blanco" seems just a translation, just as Royal Society is a translation of Real Sociedad but not the usual English term. Lope García de Salazar who seems to be the transmitter/creator of the legend uses don Çuria (!). Juan Antonio Llorente has Jaun Zuria with "el señor blanco" as a gloss. The same in Los vascos en la historia de España.
 * --Error (talk) 01:00, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the list of the lords hardly is so long that it makes the article unwieldy so I'm personally for either merging or for moving all the Lord of Biscay stuff to the main article but that would leave the other page looking more like a stub. Dunno. I see the sense in moving bola jokoa but I think moving it to Basque bowling is unfortunate, I'd move it to Basque bowls, bowling always involves a laid track and bolas almost invariably has a dirt/lawn element, which is referred to as bowls rather than bowling. I have seen Guipuscoa too in old references but the thing is it's hardly a known term. It's a bit like the difference between Tientsin and Tianjin. Clearly the instances of Mao Tse Tung are older because Pinyin is younger than Wade-Giles but there's a strong argument for using the newer standard spelling, especially since either would have been/is not a widely known term. So if you have to wrap your tongue around something exotic, it might as well be the most standard form. Most English speakers wouldn't balk at something like señorío or señor blanco so I don't think there's any need to go to huge lengths to force it into an English term. Replacing it with a French term like seigneurie would be weird, since you'd be replacing one "exotic" romance term which most people don't know with another. Why not accept it's a Hispanic thing and use señorío? German books about Basque history use señor and señorío rather than Herr and ... dunno what it would be; and I think Trask uses señores too so we should be fine. You know, you *could* call a curry and Indian Stew ... As far as Jaun Zuria goes, I think you're right that señor blanco is a gloss and that the Spanish term is Don Zurián or Don Blanco (see ). So I'll change that later on. Moved the page Akerbeltz (talk) 07:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Gebara or Vélez original lords of Oñati?
It says here that the Gebara family provided all of the lords of Oñati since 1149, but the article on Íñigo Vélez de Guevara, 7th Count of Oñate seems to suggest that he married into the title, which was previously held by his wife's family- Vélez- and he succeeded his brother-in-law as lord. However, his father was named Vélez de Guevara as well. What exactly was the relationship? Were the Gebaras a branch of the Vélez, or vice versa? It's a bit confusing. --Jefullerton —Preceding undated comment added 06:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC).

Check my wiki for orinal books about the Senorios de Bizcaya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_creation/Fortun(o)_Sanchez_(Sangiz)_Grandee_Zambrana

Fortun Sanchez de Mendoza was the first Grandee Zambrana, receiving his title on 1058 and died in 1088. The grandee title was given to him by Sancho IV of Navarra, for his service to Garcia Sanchez III of Navarra and to Sancho III of Navarra, The Zambrana family crest shows two silver stars for this service to the crown. Fortun serve as page and squire until he became lord Zambrana. Fortun receive the title of lord do to his royal lineage, Lope Jaun Zuria “The white lord” the 1st lord of viscaya was a Scottish royal blood. The lords of vizcaya joined the Pamplona/Navarra kingdom by the marriage of Velasquita Daughter of Sancho II of Pamplona “The Navarra” and the 2nd lord of viscaya. Fortun Sanchez de Mendoza is son to Sancho Lopez the 5th lord of viscaya. His brother Lope Sanchez serve as Manager to king Sancho III of Navarra and became the 6th lord of vizcaya and was the first to receive a family crest.

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk)

Jose Luis Zambrano De Santiago (talk) 20:19, 7 September 2012 (UTC)