Talk:Basques/Archive 3

Haizkolaritza
Is haizkolaritza what is shown several times in Julio Medem's film Vacas? -- Jmabel | Talk 06:37, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)


 * Where have you found this word? I've been searching in Basque language online dictionaries and it didn't appear. I believe that surely the sufix -tza is bat a declination case of "aizkolari", without -h. Aizkolaritza is the sport of axe cut, and it appears in Vacas if I'm right. There is the famous scene where the axe is thrown away, a scene that he included also in his last work La Pelota Vasca. The root word is "aizkolari", which refers to the sporter man. Surely you know yet that "aizkora" is one of those Basque words with ethimological root on "stone", as other iron tools.Idiazabal 00:13, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Someone else put the word in the article, not me. As for "surely you know", nope. My Basque vocabulary is almost non-existent. And yes, that scene from Vacas is very memorable, and he reused it nicely in La Pelota Vasca. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:25, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Haizkolaritza is Aizkolaritza. In proper grammar with "H", traditionally without "H". Haitz=stone Haizkora=Stone made axe.Ikertxo

The Lady of Anboto (the Dame.) Religion.
Well, here you have two cut parts of what I was taught by my father, in this case taken by the encyclopedia:


 * ''... Sus salidas de la cueva suelen ser tenidas por presagios de tempestad o sequía. Cuando moraba en Anboto los de Oñate creían en copiosas lluvias, pero si vivía en Aloña, habría sequía. De ahí la vigilancia de los aldeanos de las idas y venidas de la Dama.


 * ''... Según creen en Olaeta (Bizkaia), Mari Urraca suele estar siete años en Anboto, y otros siete en Gorbea, lleva la rueca en la cintura con cerro de estopa y, según va, hila moviendo el huso.

Idiazabal 01:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I've tried writing this at Anbotoko Mari. Tell me what you think: some of this was tough for me to understand. Also, if you can make the references section there more specific, that would be great. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:19, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Perhapps I may find even some book of the Digital Library for reference. Unfortunately, I don't know how work the internal links of Encyclopedia Auñamendi. Anyway tomorrow I look it.Idiazabal 02:51, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Is there a print version? That would be the most appropriate citation, assuming this was originally a print work. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:49, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Of course, there are many printed versions also. For what I know the first in citing it was Esteban Garibay in 1520 (moreless), the chronist of emperor Carlos V. I'll try to research it in proof and find if possible some books in digital format or as cites.Idiazabal 12:43, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pictures Needed
What do these people look like? There should be a picture.


 * They're very peculiar-looking, with rather flesh-colored skin and only two eyes!

More seriously,, which we link to, has a lot of images, but they are copyrighted. Yes, some (legally obtained) pictures of Basque people in various walks of life would probably be a good addition to this page. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:24, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Attila the Hun in Basque culture?
The Hungarian version of Wikipedia claims that "the Basque consider Attila the Hun as their ancestor". I personally find this claim very hard to believe.

Is there a special place for Attila the Hun in Basque culture? Was there ever? Are there any good sources to verify this?

Thanks, Nyenyec 15:14, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Sounds like nonsense to me. Much too chronologically late, for one thing. I'd be inclined to delete a similar claim if someone made it without citation in our article. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:57, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Pre-Christian religion and mythology
I've been reading this part of the article and there are some things I want to point out. First, it talks about Mari and then about Anbotoko Mari. Well, both are the same: Anbotoko Mari means "Mari of Anboto", which is mentioned before when it says that Mari resides in mount Anboto. Maybe we should put both paragraphs together.

And second, the main divinities are missing: Eguzki (the Sun), Ilargi (the Moon) and Amalur (Mother Earth). These three have a very strong value at basque mithology, specially the Sun. For instance, Ilargi means "Light of the deads" and it's believed to be very ancient (from the Mesolithic) and that the deads were guided by its light in the night. The Sun is even more important (as in most of ancient Europe).


 * Um, I read somewhere that the etimology of ilargi is not so clear. What we klnow about pre-Christian elements are recent reconstructions. It would be good to have some reference so that we can say "According to ..., " Fontes Linguae Vasconum, enero/abril 2000 has an article Análisis crítico de los desarrollos etimológicos de Uhlenbeck y Michelena para el vasco ilargi "luna" by some Yuri Zitsar. So it seems that there are several opinions. Anyone can get access to Fontes? --Error 02:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

As it says, cromlechs have religious significance, and so do the dolmens (trikuharri in basque). The bodies were buried inside them with the head towards the East, facing the Sun.


 * But megaliths are very old, aren't they? Is it sure that there is a connection between them and Basques? For example, we know that Celts found and integrated, but did not build, magaliths in Britain (as in Stonehenge. --Error 02:03, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

How could we improve this? (unsigned, left by Keta, 5 Feb 2005


 * Feel free to edit, that's how this works. (This is approaching the point where this is going to deserve breakout into a separate article, though.) -- Jmabel | Talk 18:44, Feb 5, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's what I mean, I would edit it but I have no reliable source. I'll try to find more info, but if someone has any source on all this we'd appreciate it. Keta 14:07, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * I have seen references to the French book, Petit dictionnaire des mythologies basque et pyrénéenne by Olivier de Marliave ( ISBN 2726601103 ) but haven't located a copy. There is a translation into Spanish too. -- Mtiedemann 14:49, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Category:Pre-Indo-Europeans
I'm wondering about the appropriateness of the inclusion of this in Category:Pre-Indo-Europeans. All of the other articles in that category are specifically about very ancient peoples, not ones that persist into the present time. Also, I don't believe that it is certain that the Basques were in Europe before the Indo-Europeans: it's likely enough, but at least one theory is that they came at the same time, no? -- Jmabel | Talk 17:50, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * this category is bogus anyway! It perpetuates the false impression of straightforward correlation of historical linguistics and archaeology. the issues involved are far complex to allow simple categorization. I suggest the Category is suggested for deletion (but can't be bothered to do it myself, right now) dab (&#5839;) 18:34, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Vascongados
Vascongado is not "Basque". From Latin vasconicatus ("Vasconified"), it is reserved for the inhabitants of the Provincias Vascongadas, leaving out Navarre and the French Basque Country. --Error 23:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Etimology
Are you sure that the Roman pun was on Aquitanians? I thought it was an Iberian thing. I even thought it was from some Martial epigram, but Google gives no authors. --Error 23:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * The pun was intended both for Aquitanians and Iberians, who both pronounced "v" the same as "b". Of course in Spain people think it refers only to Iberians, and in France people think it refers only to Aquitanians! However, here, since we are talking about Basque people, I used the pun in an Aquitanian context, not an Iberian one. Hardouin 00:35, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I never heard about vasco <- buscus, but <- basoko (Basque for "Of the woods"). --Error 23:31, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Basque basoko is a borrowing from medieval latin buscus, it is not a native Basque word. Hardouin 00:35, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * It should be baso. -ko is your standard genitive for places. Have you checked the etimology of baso? --Error 01:32, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Latin boscus/buscus gave the medieval Basque roots bost-, brost-, brosk-, and the medieval Basque words bosta, brosta, and broka. As for baso, I could not find the etymology in particular. However, it seems researchers discard the hypothesis of Vasco coming from basoko (check and ). Hardouin 17:01, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jentilak
Jentilak, previously explained as "Gentiles" is now explained as "Giants". The change was anonymous and without edit summary. I don't know more than about a hundred semi-random words of Basque, so I have no idea whether this was a correction or vandalism. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:24, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)


 * It's both. Jentilak are a Basque variety of pre-Christian ("Gentile") Giants. --Error 22:18, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Related groups
No one? Not even one? - 69.212.70.138 21:41, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * Really, no. Or at least none shown to be so. Of course, in modern times Basques have started to intermarry with neighboring peoples, but the prevailing theory is that they are the last remnant in Western Europe of the ethnic stock that were in the area before the great migrations from Asia. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:22, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

''
 * ''Scottish  Welsh  Basque
 * I removed this. If someone wants to restore it, provide a justification. --Error 00:28, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Compare
I'm assuming the reason someone put this here with "compare" is to point out that the tables on Basque ethnicity and Basque language are identical. Offhand, I don't think that is a big problem -- this is a case where language is certainly the single best marker of ethnicity -- but certainly there are ethnic Basques abroad who do not speak Basque, and there are probably people who live in the Basque country who are native speakers (possibly bilingual native speakers) but don't consider themselves Basque. If someone has solid evidence to refine either set of numbers, great. But I don't think the present state of this is troubling. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:26, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

Ideology of early PNV

 *  with the foundation of the Basque Nationalist Party (EAJ-PNV), in which Christian-Democratic ideas were mixed with racism against Spanish immigrant workers who were seen as perverting the purity of the mythical Basque race. The party asked for independence or at least autonomy.

I think that Christian-Democratic is not the right word for the early PNV. Christian Integrism? --Error 23:58, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't know that term Christian Integrism. Christian-Democratic usually means specifically Roman Catholic and relatively conservative (but with some concern for social welfare, and definitely supporting parliamentary democracy); beyond that it's pretty broad. Does that fail to fit? -- Jmabel | Talk 04:58, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

Origin of the Basques
Strabo wrote in Greek: the reference to the Latin ‘vascones’ is confusing here and should be moved or removed. Mark O'Sullivan 09:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Arrival of the Basques
The term “Basqueland” is a neologism introduced here without explanation and best avoided. I suggest change to “Basque Country” (accepting that its boundaries have of course moved over time) or “Basque territory”. If there is no comment on this suggestion I shall make the change myself. Mark O'Sullivan 09:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * One could even say "the Basque lands", but "Basqueland" is a neologism and should be gone. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:17, July 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * I though it was just a calque of German Baskenland.
 * The problem is that Basque Country is ambiguous now. Basque lands however is more clearly Euskal Herria. --Error 23:41, 2 August 2005 (UTC)


 * 'Basqueland' looks to be taken from German 'Baskenland' - but it isn't a received English word, and (apart from sounding a bit like the name of a theme park!) would cause quite as much confusion as anything else if it were used. Yes, 'Basque Country' is ambiguous:  but it is the most recognisable term, and can be qualified easily enough if the precise meaning in a particular case isn't quite clear from the context.   'Euskal Herria' is of course a very sound Basque name, but again suffers from the fact that the non-specialist English reader won't know quite what it means [s/he may not have any clue at all, and even if s/he does, may be unclear whether it means current boundaries? old boundaries? boundaries of the Autonomia?  area where Basque is spoken as a first/second language?...].  My vote is in general for 'Basque Country', on the grounds that it is an easily accessible term - and to qualify it as necessary. (User:Mark O'Sullivan 3 Aug 2005)


 * I agree, including that the wording should be clarified as to whether it means the autonomous region of Spain or the larger traditional Basque Country. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Roman and mediaeval times
The mediaeval section still needs more sorting out: there isn't quite a proper chronological sequence or consistency, and there is the wrong kind of emphasis given to Roncesvalles, which was a trivial skirmish in historical terms, though certainly meriting mention because of the Chanson de Roland. Moreover, "Only a small number of Roman traders would have come there" is clearly inconsistent with "At the same time, the Basques lost their lifestyle, which was dependent on trade with the Roman Empire". I shall give some time to this. Mark O'Sullivan 18:26, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Ethnic composition of Basque Country
As I understand, most of the Basque people in Spanish autonomous region Basque Country speak Spanish language, while only 27% of the population of the region speak Basque language. But, what is the ethnic (not language) composition of Basque country? How many of the inhabitants of this region are ethnic Basque (both Spanish and Basque speakers), and how many are ethnic Spanish? Why it is so hard to find information about ethnic composition of the regions of Western Europe, such are Basque Country, Alsace, Wales, etc...? User:PANONIAN


 * 30 years ago, only 25% of inhabitants were basque originally(In spain). For example on the end of XX.century, only 10% of bilbao was born there. So, we could supose ethnic group composition must be similar. But currently most of population is mixed Basque-Spanish or Basque-French.--Ikertxo 09:05, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * First you have to define what an "ethnic Basque" and an "ethnic Spanish" are.
 * Because of Reconquista, a big part of the Spanish and Spanish American population have Basque ancestors. Do you take cranium measures or big noses as a guide? Presence of the negative Rhesus factor (it is still minoritary even among Basque speakers)? A certain number of Basque surnames (ignoring then the female ancestors)?
 * Basque nationalism has taken different opinions about who is a "real" Basque. For example, some ETA members were Galician. The criteria have been Basque surnames, Basque language, Basque residence, social class or nationalist ideology.
 * Are descendants of Romans, Jews, Goths, Celts, Berbers, Guanches, Franks, Arabs, Saqaliba "ethnic Spanish"? What about the people around Coria del Río descending from the embassy of the Japanese Shogun?
 * When even Apartheid officers could classify a person as Coloured and his brother differently, it's hard to sharply classify someone in a race or ethnicity.
 * Somewhere in Wikipedia, it is quoted that a Navarrese may say that he is not Basque but his grandfather was, coinciding with the loss of the Basque language. However in Bilbao,you will find that a lot of monolinguals feel Basque.
 * --Error 17:07, 13 August 2005 (UTC)


 * First you have to define what an "ethnic Basque" and an "ethnic Spanish" are.

Well, I do not know how these things are defined in Spain, but in the countries of Eastern Europe, it is defined by the way how people declare themselves in census. For example, in Russia, you have people who declare themselves as Russians, while you also have people who declare themselves as Tatars, Chechens, etc, but they are also citizens of Russia. Is the question about ethnicity asked in Spanish census or not? User:PANONIAN


 * Not sure about the census (if someone knows please chime in), but speaking as a person who has spent about half a year each in Spain and in Romania (which is to say, clueful but not expert), these things seem much more fluid in Spain. For starters, there has probably been more intermarriage. Also, whether they are religious or not, pretty much everyone (except recent immigrants) is from a Roman Catholic background, because 500 years ago those who weren't Catholic were kicked out. The Basques are certainly the most distinct but, except for racialists, pretty much everyone would agree that language is the main thing that makes them so: I would go so far as to say that other than language, the differences are on the same order one can find from region to region anywhere in Spain (or, for that matter, between Biscay and Navarre). -- Jmabel | Talk 02:46, August 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * Not so in Spain. Actually, databases with racial data (like say one operated by a social researcher on Gitano discrimination) are very restricted if not forbidden by the Spanish Ley Orgánica de Protección de Datos de Carácter Personal (LOPD). You can infer from the census data on languages or place of birth or surname (for example a Ceutan with a surname Mohamed is almost certainly a Berber) or citizenship (for foreign residents or double nationality). But, from memory, the only official record that a Spaniard is a mulatto would be the face photograph. Probably police records for criminals hold more data.
 * When I found that in Eastern Europe people are officially declared as a Slovak in Czech Republic or a Hungarian in Romania, I thought very weird. Same, when I was asked to declare my ethnicity in a British benefits form. Apartheidish.
 * I don't know about the earlier situation in Spanish Guinea, Spanish Morocco and Spanish Sahara.
 * --Error 14:05, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Error, I presume your "not so" is addressed to PANONIAN, not me, although the indentation suggests otherwise. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:11, August 14, 2005 (UTC)


 * Corrected --Error 11:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

But I think there are biological differences too, certainly in blood groups. Mark O'Sullivan 18:33, 31 August 2005 (UTC)