Talk:Bastyr University/Archive 1

SCNM, CCNM, etc...
Anyone interested in helping build some new pages for the other schools? There are many red links in the naturopathic sphere here on wiki... For example. Thanks! --Travisthurston 16:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

DAOM
Site actually say "only regionally and professionally accredited Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (DAOM) program of its kind". Note the "of its kind" at the end. This could mean anything. I don't think it can be interpreted as broadly as what was added to the article. Yworo (talk) 22:10, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Also says "in the US" but "of its kind" is so vague that if there is any RS for any other accredited acu/TCM university, the redirect from Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine should be undone and the RS content should be put in that article. PPdd (talk) 22:58, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Largely unsourced advert
Third party sources needed for much of the content. Edited down for puffery and prose vs list. - - MrBill3 (talk) 11:42, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Photo
I think the photo of the main entrance is much more appealing than the one of a garden, which doesn't show much of the university. I am changing this but am open to discussion here. --SeinHenker (talk) 04:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that most other university Wikipedia pages have the school's logo or crest or shield and not a photograph of some part of the campus in the box (see University of Washington, Seattle University, etc.). Wouldn't it be more appropriate to use Bastyr University's logo in keeping with the style of Wikipedia? Eric Yarnell (talk) 03:39, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Bias in Quackery Claims
The second introductory paragraph regarding quackery at the university is biased. The sources for this information are highly political sources and do not speak for all of the " scientific and medical communities" as they are claiming to do.

Why is it not "quackery" for major conventional medical schools to have taught/continue to teach surgeons to perform common knee and back surgeries which are ultimately proven to be worthless or have never been proven helpful yet inflict quite a large amount of harm (being major surgeries after all) but it is "quackery" to teach homeopathy, which I personally find to be useless and not evidence-based as well, but at least it causes minimal to no harm. Arthroscopic knee surgery useless trial: N Engl J Med 2002; 347:81-88. Spinal stenosis surgeries lack any studies comparing them to placebo or sham surgery and still aren't clearly helpful: PLoS One. 2015; 10(3): e0122800. Homeopathy worthless: https://consultations.nhmrc.gov.au/public_consultations/homeopathy_health? And why isn't the second paragraph of Harvard University's page dedicated to decrying their racist past (http://www.harvardandslavery.com)? These are all provided as examples to show that the portrayal of Bastyr U in the current Wikipedia page is biased and not receiving the same neutral treatment as other accredited universities.

Thanks to Delta13C by the way for helping me understand the COI policies on Wikipedia which I was ignorant of, and I apologize for editing the page contrary to the policies. Eric Yarnell (talk) 03:39, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Also note that controversy about the school's curriculum is already handled in the Criticism section, so why does it need to be in the introductory paragraphs?Eric Yarnell (talk) 03:42, 19 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Hi Eric, please read WP:FRINGE, which will address why it is vital that the second paragraph is needed. Are you saying that the scientific communities think that subjects that are taught at Bastyr are not quackery and that there is not a controversy between alt-med folks and science-based folks? Your point about knee surgery misses the point. Please familiarize yourself with Tu quoque. I will indulge you for a bit though: do you know that medical schools teach to perform these surgeries on patients that do not need them or is this your opinion? How do you know this is not a rampant practice in orthopedics rather than being taught in med school? Perhaps you should take this point to the articles Medical school and Orthopedic surgery. Delta13C (talk) 04:29, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Page Updates
I would like to see if the following changes are doable on the Bastyr page. I haven't provided specific changes in all cases, but can if desired.

Opening Paragraphs: In line with providing a balanced discussion, Identify the accreditations that the University does have along with the one it does not. Those accreditations are discussed further on the page; however, if the one that the university does not have is to be discussed at the opening so should the ones that it does have.

I am unclear as to why discussion of any controversy has to be at the beginning rather than simply under the heading of "Criticism." However if it is to be maintained, then again in keeping with the "balanced" nature that Wikipedia is said to maintain, reference should be given to the findings reported by the National Institute of Health's National Center for Complementary and Integrative Medicine - https://nccih.nih.gov/health/integrative-health- that more than 30 percent of American adults are using complementary/alternative/integrative care which includes the various programs that Bastyr teaches - use of natural products, qi gong, physical manipulations, massage, diets, homeopathy, and counseling.
 * That's a dead link. Please provide a link to the National Institute of Health's website that discusses Bastyr University specifically. Thank you. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:27, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Program Updates - match the programs on the Bastyr site - http://www.bastyr.edu/academics.
 * We do not consider the website of a fringe, pseudoscientific university to be a reliable source. Sorry. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:27, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * For pseudoscientific topics, such as this institution, it is appropriate to include a de-fringe remark at the beginning of the article. We do not want readers to be confused that Bastyr is a genuine medical school, and they should also be aware of the controversies associated with it right off the bat. Delta13C (talk) 07:27, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Doctoral programs

 * Acupuncture
 * Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
 * Naturopathic Medicine
 * Where are the independent, reliable sources discussing these doctoral programs? Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:16, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Master's programs

 * Ayurvedic Sciences
 * Counseling Psychology
 * Midwifery
 * Nutrition
 * Nutrition and Clinical Health Psychology
 * Public Health
 * Please provide WP:RS for these programs. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:17, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Undergraduate programs
The Bachelor of Science degree completion programs require an average of two years of undergraduate coursework at another accredited institution before transferring to Bastyr.
 * Exercise Science and Wellness
 * Health Psychology
 * Herbal Sciences
 * Integrated Human Biology
 * Nutrition
 * Nutrition and Culinary Arts
 * Nutrition and Exercise Science
 * We need independent, reliable sources supporting any such claims. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  07:19, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Certificate program

 * Holistic Landscape Design
 * Please provide an independent reference showing that this certificate program is accredited. Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  07:21, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

For notable people, can the following be added:


 * Lise Alschuler, ND, FABNO, a 1994 graduate of Bastyr University with a Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine, who maintains a naturopathic oncology practice in Arizona, is a founding founding board member and current President of the Oncology Association of Naturopathic Physicians, and is co-author of The Definitive Guide to Cancer and The Definitive Guide to Thriving After Cancer.
 * Peter Bongiorno ND, LAc, a 2003 graduate of Bastyr University with a Doctorate in Naturopathic Medicine, who has a private practice in New York, is Vice President of the New York Association of Naturopathic Physicians, and author of a number of books and publications, including How Come They’re Happy and I’m Not?: The Complete Natural Program to Healing Depression for Good

Roadcat8 (talk) 06:42, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * There are no Wikipedia articles about either Lise Alschuler or Peter Bongiorno. It would be necessary to provide references to independent reliable sources that verify that these people graduated from this school, and that these people are notable. The sources you provided are certainly not independent. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  07:14, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Bastyr + Wiki can be friends
Discussion happens between Bastyr people and students and the Wikipedia community from time to time. Sourcing can be improved but for alternative medicine Bastyr is a leading institution which teaches more evidence-based medicine than almost any other alternative medicine school anywhere. Wikipedia's rules are paramount and everyone has to follow the rules, so the usual rule of "only add information backed by published reliable sources" always applies. Beyond the rules and thinking about social relationships, my own opinion is that Bastyr has the potential to be a leading light in how alternative medicine standards are kept high in Wikipedia. I know that the wiki community gets exhausted from dealing with cranks, paid-alt-med product promoters, and aggressive people who refuse to follow wiki rules, but please give Bastyr people a chance. It is hostile to say things like "fringe, pseudoscientific university". I know how difficult it is dealing with pseudoscience in Wikipedia, but if Wikipedia were to attract a partner in this space, it might be Bastyr. They have had light discussions with WikiProject Medicine members over the years and at least some people there have WP:MEDRS-compliant information to share. Many or most people in the world use some form of alternative medicine. "Fringe" is not the right word for many forms of alt-med, because alt med is everywhere as part of culture. I would like for wiki to have reputable friends in this space, and Bastyr is among the most likely candidates for a sane and beneficial partnership. They have smart staff, students who study very hard, and are grounded with a physical campus location and regulation from many stakeholders who oversee their conservative instruction. If anyone needs support please ask at WikiProject Medicine for guidance.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  14:57, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you please cite the reliable sources that support the way you characterized Bastyr? Delta13C (talk) 18:53, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I am unwilling to try to do that at this time. It is a bit inappropriate for you to say "For pseudoscientific topics, such as this institution", because name-calling and driving the discussion into negativity does not advance the conversation. This is a school which encourages critical thinking and especially among alt med learning institutions, their willingness to incorporate traditional science is admirable. I am sharing an image here to demonstrate that they have many stakeholders funding their nonprofit mission and have been able to navigate criticism with campuses in cities with high educational standards. It is unusual for a school like this to have a campus, much less such a nice one. I would like to keep this talk page friendly and open to discussion. You might have seen that the criticism section in this article is mostly without reliable sources that talk about the school, so if you would like to cite reliable sources to support the way you characterize the school, then you could if you felt that would help. I just want a more positive environment here, and I would love for Wikipedia to eventually attract an alt med scholar to participate in WikiProject Medicine. There has never been one.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  01:13, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but it should seem completely obvious to anyone who supports actual science that naturopathy is pseudoscience. If Bastyr adopted the scientific method, then it would stop teaching naturopathy, and begin teaching evidence based medicine instead. Stating the consensus of reliable sources is not hostile. It is precisely what we do as encyclopedists. <b style="color:#070">Cullen</b><sup style="color:#707">328  Let's discuss it  07:23, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand the hostility because of all the years of hundreds of alt med disagreements on wiki. I am not saying that anyone should hold Bastyr to a lower standard than other orgs on wiki. I am asking to back off on the aggression of telling others about what is "completely obvious" and what is "pseudoscience". This wiki talk page is not the place to have discussions, so I want to be mindful of the need to wrap up this side conversation even though I am still writing.
 * The US Federal Government has an alt med division in NIH and they say 30 percent of adults use alt med. The popularity of alt med and the government support it has is evidence that alt med is not marginal practice, even if it includes less-robust science. Wiki needs allies in this space that will share evidence-based scientific medical information. One defense of naturopathy and alt med generally is that it teaches fair scepticism of the medical industry. Conventional medicine embraces pseudoscientific beliefs that direct-to-consumer advertising and pharmaceutical marketing to health care providers do not cause unnecessary health care. They do; and the relationship between corporate sales and conventional medicine in the United States is anti-scientific and results in outcomes which other countries would not tolerate. Bastyr is in the United States where such issues are a problem. When evidence-based medicine recommends lifestyle changes, naturopaths more successfully place patients into treatments like diet and exercise when conventional doctors experience pressure to sell industry-marketed products and services.
 * I would like to keep this talk page a friendly place to attract anyone from Bastyr to come to wiki. Everyone has to follow wiki rules, and I know there are historical tensions about alt med, but somehow wiki needs friends from this space to serve the needs of the many people who read wiki. Among alt med institutions, Bastyr is one of the more likely to share evidence-based health information.  Blue Rasberry   (talk)  12:52, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Blue Rasberry, You should take a look at how the NCCIH's definition of CAM causes it to overestimate the prevalence of alt-med. Regardless, the prevalence of CAM has nothing to do with this article on Bastyr, naturopathic medicine, or that alt-med is quackery. How do you know what you are saying about Bastyr being a bastion of science? I also want to point out that "direct to consumer advertising" or "pharmaceutical marketing" is not an issue of pseudoscience or being anti-science. These are business strategies that have problems and are controversial. Delta13C (talk) 15:53, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

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Information Box
Hello. I am an agent for Bastyr and would like to make the following minor edits.

President: Harlan Patterson (Source: President and Leadership, http://bastyr.edu/about/president) Provost: Dave Rule (Source: Leadership Team, https://bastyr.edu/about/leadership) Remove 'Academic Staff' information Remove 'Administrative Staff' information Students: 1,205 (Fall 2017) Use the English spelling of 'Colors' (instead of 'Colours') — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblanton03 (talk • contribs) 20:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Additional sources to work-in

 * https://www.acsh.org/news/2016/11/16/why-naturopathic-medicine-oxymoron-10441
 * Points:
 * Low admissions standards
 * Inadequate coursework to be a competent medical provider


 * https://qz.com/1088056/a-naturopaths-fight-against-her-alma-mater-shows-how-to-break-out-of-echo-chambers/
 * Points:
 * Bastyr is threatening to sue blogger Britt Hermes for allegedly defaming the school.
 * On speaking about Bastyr and other ND schools, Edzard Ernst says, "These schools of quackery operate like cults. People are being brainwashed with books, by peers, through media and so forth."
 * Bastyr is not accredited by the same body that accredits US medical schools.
 * Lots of bio details on the blogger and her experiences at the school. (Likely not relevant for Bastyr's article.)


 * http://www.bothell-reporter.com/news/bastyr-university-president-to-step-down-due-to-health-concerns/
 * Points:
 * Bastyr president Powell steps down due to health concerns. (Should update infobox.)

I scanned for more sources but could not find any that are not cited in the article.

There was this puff peice which is "paid for by sponsors or the nonprofits featured here. They are not products of Voice of San Diego’s editorial staff," so ineligble for inclusion. It's funny, kind of reads a lot like the writings of the user who appears to be "The Terrible Sea Lion." Delta13C (talk) 21:01, 15 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Another source: http://www.refinery29.com/2016/07/116159/blood-type-diet-myths?geo=us&_ga=2.38824235.948070628.1510913324-1167827166.1510913324
 * "Bastyr University, a school of alternative medicine, which, like naturopathy itself, is the subject of constant criticism for promoting medical beliefs with no scientific basis (and in Bastyr’s case, for dubious academic practices as well)."
 * Discusses Peter J. D’Adamo, who is the inventor of the blood type diet. He was in Bastyr's first graduating class. I suppose he can be added to the list of notable alumni. The article discusses how his ideas are scientifically bunk. Delta13C (talk) 11:39, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * For the record, since he was just added, I don't think that Peter J. D'Adamo is notable enough, as he doesn't have an article of his own, the standard throughout the project for notable alumni. Unless of course the consensus is that we include him, just as a POINTY point? -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 17:03, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I went back and forth here. Since he is likely notable within the Bastyr community, as indicated by the founding president saying he is great and all (Criticism section). The blood-type diet that D'Adamo invented has its own article, and it seems like the guy used to have his own article. I could go either way. Delta13C (talk) 19:56, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * There's been a redirect on Peter J. D'Adamo to Blood type diet since 2009, so think we should keep him in the notable alumni list. Delta13C (talk) 23:23, 26 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 01:05, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
 * He's notable enough to be listed here. --Guy Macon (talk) 09:36, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

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Archiving problem
Something is not configured correctly because User:lowercase sigmabot III archived discussions here recently to Talk:Bastyr University/Archive 1 but there is no archive box here. Maybe the box needs to be placed, or maybe other discussions are somewhere else. I am sorry but I am unable to check or fix this right now.  Blue Rasberry  (talk)  19:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Threads must of course include timestamps (usually part of signatures) to be archived. The bot settings appear allright at first glance, I just added the talk header which includes archive links.  I hope this helps, — Paleo  Neonate  – 14:56, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Kenmore neighborhood
17 Aug 2005: I changed "Juanita" to "Inglewood/Finn Hill" as the name of the Kenmore neighbourhood referenced in this article. Juanita is the neighbourhood in Kirkland at the southern foot of Finn Hill. Inglewood/Finn Hill is the name used by the U.S. Census Bureau for the sizable unincorporated area of Finn Hill. Although Bastyr University lies barely within the city limits of Kenmore, it is still locally considered a part of this neighbourhood. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.40.57.219 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Certain areas were annexed by Kirkland in the last 10 years so not all online sources have caught up with this. In a very unusual arrangement, Saint Edward State Park encloses Bastyr. My best map reading indicated that a corner of the state park is within the Kirkland city limits, but Bastyr itself is not. Not sure whether Kirkland and Kenmore are now adjacent or if there is unincorporated King County between them. If the latter, it's probably the park, because it would have no tax revenue for either city. ☆ Bri (talk) 20:39, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Article Neutrality & Possible Changes
Hello. I am acting as an Agent of Bastyr. We would like to begin a respectful dialogue concerning the language used in certain portions of the page. After speaking with a representative of Wikipedia, who agree that this posting does not fully advance Wikipedia's Five Pillars, we are now reaching out to the editors to discuss how we can make constructive changes to the page, while still presenting a neutral view of the school. We will address each point one by one and hope to engage editors in discussion to gain a consensus and edit the page accordingly. First, we would like to address the introduction. Not only do the propositions cited rely on blogs as credible sources, but the language is inflammatory and does not appear neutral. There is a 'Criticisms' section specifically created for this type of contribution (though credible sources are still needed, and Quackwatch is not a credible source). We propose the following change to the introduction: "Bastyr University is a natural health arts and sciences with campuses in Kenmore, Washington, and San Diego, California. Academic degree and certificate programs include naturopathic medicine, acupuncture and East Asian medicine, nutrition, herbal sciences, ayurvedic sciences, health psychology, midwifery, integrated human biology, exercise science, holistic landscape design, and public health. Each of Bastyr’s programs endeavor to improve health through prevention and self-healing processes, relying on healthy living principles, and on a therapeutic order of interventions that emphasize the basic determinants of health first. Bastyr University is the largest university for the natural health arts and sciences field in the U.S., combining a multidisciplinary curriculum with leading-edge research and clinical training to educate future leaders in these fields. The University's academic and research programs have received international recognition for pioneering work in science-based natural medicine." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblanton03 (talk • contribs) 20:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * What you've done there is to confuse Wikipedia with a sales brochure. We follow reliable source and abide by WP:FRINGE when it comes to fringe content (on topics like naturopathy, acupuncture, etc.). Bottom line: Wikipedia is going to remain neutral (in the WP:NPOV sense) and will not be falling into the WP:GEVAL fallacy to promote quackery with marketing clich&eacute;s as you propose. WP:PSCI policy requires us to call out nonsenses for what they are. Alexbrn (talk) 20:59, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback, Alexbrn. I understand what Wikipedia is and how it is to be used. Particularly, that under WP:Fringe, "... lack of consideration or acceptance does not necessarily imply rejection, either; ideas should not be portrayed as rejected or carry negative labels such as pseudoscience unless such claims can be documented in reliable sources." What I have stated is that the sources used to support the second and third paragraphs of the introduction are not reliable sources. If editors care to provide unbiased, neutral sources, I would love to continue this discussion. Additionally, the Wikipedia Five Pillars require that editors treat each other with respect and civility. We would appreciate your adherence to this when responding. There is no need for hostility. This is a professional discussion and our attempt to reach a amenable conclusion for Bastyr and the Wikipedia community. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblanton03 (talk • contribs) 21:51, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, Wikipedia should have articles that are not sales brochures, but they should not be exaggerated hit pieces either. Thus the placement of "Quack" and "health fraud" in the lead is entirely exaggerated and unfair and NPOV partisan.  Certainly a discussion of the critiques of those in the medical profession with naturopathy in the body of the article is called for, but to call out this school in the lead, which is accredited by the State of Washington and receives NIH funding and which has other programs unrelated to naturopathy is inappropriate and demagogic. I have made an attempt to tone this down but each of my changes has been summarily reverted.Tom Cod (talk) 17:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Quackwatch has repeatedly been found by the community to be a reliable source on the topic of health fraud/quackery etc. There is no requirement at all for sources to be "neutral". BTW, you need to declare your conflict of interest on your user page to avoid breaching the Terms of Use here. Also who is "we"? Alexbrn (talk) 21:57, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Hello again Alexbrn. Thank you for your response. I am again raising the topic of whether Quackwatch is a reliable source and have opened up the discussion. I believe there must be input from more than one editor on the topic. Thank you for advising me of my responsibility to declare my conflict of interest. Wikipedia advised that I need only declare my conflict within the text page, which I have done above in the first entry. "We" = agent(s) for Bastyr. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblanton03 (talk • contribs) 23:08, 13 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Various other sources that appear to be reliable are also used, not only QuackWatch. The latter would only be problematic if it contradicted other reliable sources on the topic.   You are indeed at the right place to suggest improvements, but there is no indication that the article conflicts with the five pillars.  — Paleo  Neonate  – 00:06, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * A look at multiple discussions about Quackwatch on WP will make the accuracy of Alexbrn's comment plain. PaleoNeonate has pointed out that other reliable sources support the content based on Quackwatch. I agree with both of them and ask, what in particular seems to conflict with the five pillars? MrBill3 (talk) 05:50, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I challenge the claim "After speaking with a representative of Wikipedia, who agree that this posting does not fully advance Wikipedia's Five Pillars". Please post the name of this "representative of Wikipedia". Was this a question posted somewhere on Wikipedia? Was it a phone call? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:36, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid that The OP is going to be disappointed, but wikipedias editing policy will not allow us to use their suggestion in the lead of the article. According to policy, the lead is supposed to be a summary of the body text, and the proposal in the opening post to this thread does not do that at all. So no, i'm afraid.


 * May I suggest that OP works on incremental suggestions of changes to the body text, backed by reliable sources. If the body text is appropriate then changes to the lead could be made. Note that the particularly egregious claim of "with leading-edge research and clinical training" is probably going to be impossible to source, as is "pioneering work in science-based natural medicine."


 * Because the OP is an admitted meatpuppet, and probably a paid editor, a proper declaration should also be made on their user page. Note that the "declaration" on this page is totally inadequate. Also note that multiple use of a single account is against our Terms of Use that all editors here, including the OP, have agreed to when creating their accounts. -Roxy the dog. barcus 17:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)


 * In addition, writing "Additionally, the Wikipedia Five Pillars require that editors treat each other with respect and civility. We would appreciate your adherence to this when responding. There is no need for hostility. This is a professional discussion and our attempt to reach a amenable conclusion for Bastyr and the Wikipedia community." when nobody has shown any hint of disrespect or incivility leads me to consider the possibility that we are dealing with The Terrible Sea Lion. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

I don't think it is at all controversial nor inflammatory to identify the fact that many, if not the overwhelming majority, of alternative medicine modalities have been characterized by WP:MAINSTREAM sources as pseudoscience. We have plenty of high-quality WP:FRIND-appropriate sources to that effect both in this article and in other articles. The OP would be wise to ask those at his institution to do the hard work of getting their therapies and treatments vetted in high-quality journals with mechanisms described and verified in peer-reviewed articles in flagship academic sources (Nature, Science, NEJM, etc.). Then we'll be happy to change the content to reflect the consensus view. Until then, the best we have are the indications of those professional scientists, medical doctors, and educators who have bothered to comment on the situation. I see almost zero sources that indicate that Bastyr is teaching scientifically verified techniques. Feel free to show me sources that say otherwise! jps (talk) 18:10, 14 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks so much for all of the responses. What we wanted most was an open dialogue. I will be sure to update my user page accordingly so that we can move past that discussion. I like the idea of incremental suggestions to the body of the text, supported by reliable sources. I will provide shortly. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblanton03 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 14 November 2017 (UTC) Thank you to all Editors who have engaged in this discussion. As previously suggested, we would like to suggest incremental changes to the Bastyr page (and associated reliable sources where needed). As the introduction paragraphs are the source of the greatest debate, we will start with the easier suggestions for updates:

1.	Information Panel - President: Harlan Patterson (Source: President and Leadership, http://bastyr.edu/about/president) Provost: Dave Rule (Source: Leadership Team, https://bastyr.edu/about/leadership) Remove 'Academic Staff' information Remove 'Administrative Staff' information Students: 1,205 (Fall 2017) Use the English spelling of 'Colors' (instead of 'Colours') 2.	History – Update the number of founders from three to four and include Sheila Quinn. 3.	Doctoral Programs – Update the list to read: •	Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine •	Naturopathic Medicine 4.	Master’s Programs – Update the list to read: •	Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine •	Ayurvedic Sciences (Program began in fall 2013) •	Counseling Psychology •	Maternal Child Health Systems •	Midwifery •	Nutrition •	Nutrition and Clinical Health Psychology •	Nutrition for Wellness •	Public Health 5.	Combined bachelor’s/masters programs – Update list to read: •	Acupuncture or Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine •	Midwifery 6.	Certificate programs – Delete “Chinese Herbal Medicine” Dblanton03 (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I wondering why we list programme content at all. Without secondary coverage isn't this undue and WP:NOT encyclopedic. Suggest this is all removed. Alexbrn (talk) 06:01, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I completely agree that the list of programs should be removed. If readers want to know what specifically the school has to offer, then they can go to the school's website. I could not find examples of listing program content for other universities w/ WP articles. Delta13C (talk) 11:40, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Alexbrn and Delta13C, can you please address each numbered item in turn? The group has suggested an itemized list of changes, so can we go through the list? Thus far, I hear no objection to updating the Information Panel and History. You both have issues with listing the degrees offered, but other schools' Wikipedia pages do indeed list such information (, , , , and many others).  Look forward to your reply. Thanks!Dblanton03 (talk) 13:52, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, those other ones look problematic too for listing course content. I don't see any issue with updating the data items in the infobox, though all must be sourced. Alexbrn (talk) 14:00, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no requirement to address proposed changes per the listing of the editor suggesting the changes. In regard to listing program content I concur with Alexbrn. If no reliable source finds it notable enough to publish, it doesn't belong in the encyclopedia. Providing examples can be valuable, but note the essay WP:Other stuff exists. The primary guidance comes from policy, content must be verifiable by a reliable source. In any article where content is controversial the first rule of thumb is independent reliable third party sources. In regard to the updating the president and provost, I suppose the school's website is an adequate ref for that info, although since things have changed very recently an official announcement or better a third party source would be better.
 * No sources were provided for any changes other than the president and provost. Without sources I don't see support for any other changes.MrBill3 (talk) 14:13, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Further to Alex and Bill's comments, I feel that Dblanton is taking advantage of our good faith WP:AGF (Read that DB) by requesting edits from us before making a COI declaration as promised. I'm always suspicious of editors with a clear and obvious WP:COI who wont make a proper declaration as it feels like a lend is being taken. -Roxy the dog. barcus 19:11, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I understand that there is no requirement to address proposed changes per the listing of the editor suggesting changes. After a great suggestion above, I provided an itemized list of changes. It is definitely helping to work through the proposed changes. Sources are as follows - President source ; Provost ; Sheila Quinn ; Programs .  Roxy, I made a proper declaration in my profile yesterday. I stated who I was and that I had a COI.Dblanton03 (talk) 19:45, 17 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I checked before I posted, and no declaration had been made, just an inadequate sentence, viz - "Conflict Disclosure: My name is A.T. and I am an agent of Bastyr." Please read WP:COI and WP:PAID. -Roxy the dog. barcus 08:12, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree a policy compliant COI disclosure should be posted. MrBill3 (talk) 13:07, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
 * I agree as well. Detailed instructions are at Conflict of interest. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:11, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the instructions, Guy Macon! I have updated my Userpage accordingly. Are we in consensus regarding the information panel and history changes given the sources I have cited? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblanton03 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing a proper declaration. Quote: "You must declare who is paying you, who the client is, and any other relevant role or relationship" [my bold]. Alexbrn (talk) 16:51, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
 * With all due respect (I usually agree with you on most things) I must disagree. Template:UserboxCOI clearly states "Placing this tag on a user's Userpage will satisfy the requirement of the WP:COI subsection 'Declaring an interest'." It is not fair to fault Dblanton03 for following the instruction on the page I referred him to. If those instruction are wrong, we need to fix the instructions.


 * A related question is whether Dblanton03 should have followed the "General COI" or "Paid editors" instructions at Conflict of interest. A person could be "an agent of Bastyr" on his own time without being instructed to do so by his boss or being paid specifically for editing Wikipedia. If he is, say, a salaried staff member or professor who decided to edit Wikipedia without being told to do so, the General COI declaration is fine. If, on the other hand, he is a consultant or part of a PR firm hired to edit the Bastyr Wikipedia page (we have all seen the ads offering that service) then the paid editors disclosure would be required. We need to tread lightly here to avoid violating Dblanton03's privacy. He doesn't have to reveal any personal information if he isn't actually being paid to edit Wikipedia, and if he is being paid to edit Wikipedia, all he has to reveal is who is paying him and what they are paying him to do. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:21, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
 * The userbox instructions are wrong/incomplete. I am now more confused by Dblanton03's status that I was when they declared he was "an agent" of Bastyr. The relevant guidance is WP:COI/WP:PAID. If paid (which I assuming is the case for an "agent"), the things this user must disclose are as I indicated. Note this article has a history of conflicted contributors. Alexbrn (talk) 20:50, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, whoever is paying them isn't getting their moneys worth at the moment, I mean its Thursday already and not a reliable source in sight. To think I changed my sig to something with anus in it, just for them. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 14:50, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
 * Since I am not a paid editor, I do not believe that COI is necessary. Under the guidelines, I have complied with the applicable COI disclosure rules. Based on our prior conversation, and my provision of references, I will make the minor changes to the information panel proposed and likewise approved. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dblanton03 (talk • contribs) 19:05, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * If you're not being paid, then what did you mean when you wrote above that you were acting as an agent of Bastyr, ? Cordless Larry (talk) 19:14, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * You can be an agent without being paid. I personally have been in several situations where someone said that I can speak for them in a negotiation without me being paid to do so. If he says he isn't being paid, pleas WP:AGF and believe him unless you have actual evidence to the contrary. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:10, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to assume good faith,, but I wanted clarification because (somewhat confusingly for new editors), the paid editing policy can apply to people who might not consider themselves to be paid employees, such as interns. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:23, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Note that the COI policy applies to all editors with a conflict of interest not only to paid editors. Someone acting as an agent of another would definitely fall under that policy. MrBill3 (talk) 04:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the extension of good faith. From the instructions on the page I was referred to, there were two options: a standard COI disclosure and a paid editor COI disclosure. I followed all instructions under the former. I would like to add an additional Bastyr alum under the 'Notable alumni' section of the page. I would like to remove the picture of Ms. Hermes (as this is not standard practice followed by other Universities on Wikipedia who list their notable alumni; it also seems like a promotion for her blog and brand as it currently stands). Suggested added text is as follows:


 * "Michael T. Murray, ND, a 1995 graduate of the doctorate of naturopathic medicine program, is one of the world's leading authorities on natural medicine. He has published over 30 books featuring natural approaches to health. For the past thirty-five years, Dr. Murray has been compiling a massive database of original scientific studies from the medical literature. He has personally collected over 65,000 articles from the scientific literature, which provide strong evidence on the effectiveness of diet, vitamins, minerals, herbs, and other natural measures in the maintenance of health and the treatment of disease."  Dblanton03
 * (talk) 14:33, 20 December 2017 (UTC)


 * No reliable sources there, and this is WP:PROFRINGE puffery. I note however, Murray gets a mention on QuackWatch for claiming AIDs could be treated with St John's wort (which in fact turned out to be hazardous). Alexbrn (talk) 14:38, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Alexbrn, how is Bloomberg not a reliable source? If QuackWatch is a reliable source, than surely Bloomberg is. Also, this section is for notable alumni, whether you agree with their theories or not. The statement lists his date of graduation, how many books he has published, the work he does, and the articles he has collected. Please point me to the inaccuracies.Dblanton03 (talk) 14:00, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * You mean the page that says "Bloomberg.com does not create or control the content". Any source supporting a claim about "the effectiveness of diet, vitamins, minerals, herbs, and other natural measures" would need to be WP:MEDRS. Have you thought about using the QuackWatch source? Alexbrn (talk) 14:43, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Alexbrn, the full statement on Bloomberg reads "The information and data displayed in this profile are created and managed by S&P Global Market Intelligence, a division of S&P Global. Bloomberg.com does not create or control the content." Therefore, this can still be cited as a credible source, as S&P Global Market Intelligence manages the content. Further, for Britt Hermes, citations to web articles are used. Thus, citation to Total Health magazine should be no issue. Finally, QuackWatch, despite your claims, is a blog site where a network of users can contribute unvetted articles. I would prefer to use the sources I have mentioned above, as they are indeed credible. As a concession, we can update the entry to read: "Michael T. Murray, ND, a 1995 graduate of the doctorate of naturopathic medicine program, is one of the world's leading authorities on natural medicine. He has published over 30 books featuring natural approaches to health. For the past thirty-five years, Dr. Murray has been compiling a massive database of original scientific studies from the medical literature." Additional reference: Dblanton03 (talk) 16:20, 4 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Reads like a brochure, quite unsuitable for Wikipedia. The "Bloomberg" content has no evidence of editorial oversight but for a plain statement like that Murray was at Bastyr, is probably okay. QuackWatch is a good source for altmed content, and the fact the it mentions Murray gives some weight, so could be useful to add detail. Alexbrn (talk) 17:54, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Based on that argument, QuackWatch could be said to have "no evidence of editorial oversight." I do not think this is a strong argument for rejection of the Bloomberg source, especially since I have provided four additional sources with corroborating information. Propose the following edit which does not support altmed, but instead, describes the alumni's collection of articles/studies: "Michael T. Murray, ND, a 1995 graduate of the doctorate of naturopathic medicine program, has published over 30 books featuring natural approaches to health. For the past thirty-five years, Dr. Murray has compiled a database of over 65,000 original scientific studies from the medical literature which discuss the effectiveness of diet, vitamins, minerals, herbs, and other natural measures in the maintenance of health and the treatment of disease." Also, Alexbrn, may I ask, are you the sole decision-maker on this, or do we wait for additional editor commentary? Dblanton03 (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Hi again DB, it is appropriate that you should ask, and no, Alex isn't the sole arbiter of what goes into our article. We go with the local consensus, guided by Policy and Guidelines. I have been content to follow your and Alex discussion here, as Alex is generally far more collegiate than I, when it comes to discussing with a COI editer such as yourself. I must state that I agree with his responses around the current discussion, and note the addition to the article he has made. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 21:51, 4 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The proposed edit sounds like a promotional blurb and has little relevance to the article. If Murray is notable a mention that he at Bastyr with a link to his article is probably about what would be appropriate for the article. The title ND is not appropriate to apply per MOS. Unless the publications by Murray have contributed to published content about Bastyr they have no relevance in this article. If the "massive" database (see how it's promotional?) is significant and notable it will be covered substantially in solid sources and again what is the relevance to Bastyr? I echo Roxy in saying I find Alexbrn's responses a good reflection of policy and the general consensus. MrBill3 (talk) 15:38, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Confused by the proposed edit as it in no way matches the format in the current Notable Alumni section. For example, there is no need to mention the Quackwatch citation in the body of the text if it is cited as a reference. Further, the additional colorful language adds nothing to the article, and is inflammatory. The sources that I have provided are neutral and simply provide information on Dr. Murray's status as an alumni and accomplishments (see other alumni already listed in the section. Suggest this section should instead follow the format of all other higher education pages and simply list the alumni's name (with a hyperlink to their page or website) and the year they graduated. Additionally, it is not common or accepted practice on Wikipedia pages to detail criticism regarding the listed alumni within this section.  I point you to Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, UVA, and other medical school's Wikipedia pages as reference. Please advise if this proposed change is acceptable.Dblanton03 (talk) 21:15, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The other medical schools are generally not WP:FRINGE, so different considerations apply. For WP:FRINGE topics, the prevailing context must always be the mainstream, rational one. So far as I can see most Bastyr alumni are dealt with in reliable secondary sources purely because of their dubious practices. Alexbrn (talk) 21:29, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you Alexbrn for citing the WP:FRINGE guideline. I think this goes a long way towards explaining how this subject should be covered in WP.MrBill3 (talk) 06:09, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I believe you are taking a quite broad interpretation of WP:FRINGE. As stated on the page, "...a Wikipedia article should not make a fringe theory appear more notable or more widely accepted than it is. Statements about the truth of a theory must be based upon independent reliable sources." The section concerning 'Notable Alumni' is designed (as it is on other higher education pages) to highlight those alumni who have accomplished specific achievements. My previous proposal to simply list the names of the alumni, with a link to their WP page, and the year of graduation, more than sufficiently satisfies the parameters of WP:FRINGE. Furthermore, each alumni listed is supported by credible, independent, reliable sources (as per WP:FRINGE guidelines).Dblanton03 (talk) 15:10, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field. Since pretty much everything out of Bastyr is fringe, it's not surprising some of its alumni have achieved notability through fringe practices (lethal curcumin injections, plant enzyme diets etc.). Such people, if anything, are who we should be listing. I'm not seeing a problem with the section as it stands. Alexbrn (talk) 16:39, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I am aware of the term and its connotation. However, this is first and foremost the page for an institute of higher education. Let's break it down this way. Bastyr University is accredited by the Northwest Commission on Colleges and Universities (NWCCU). NWCCU is an institutional accrediting body recognized by the U.S. Department of Education. Bastyr University should be permitted to follow the same format as all other institutions of higher learning on this site. This page simply outlines (as with other institutions of higher learning) facts about its course offerings, location, etc. The section on notable alumni, which was previously approved by editors, has now changed its formatting completely, using non-neutral terms and quoting to Quackwatch in the body of the text. It is my understanding that the purpose of a list of notable alumni is to provide useful information about a school and its alumni. The information currently included is not useful. It is inflammatory and biased. If readers wish to obtain more information, they can visit the individuals' WP page. The purpose of this section, as already stated, is to provide information about the school and its alumni. A list of names (with links to the relevant WP pages) and graduation years is a more than equitable solution to this issue.  Alexbrn, I am sure you are not biased on this topic and are thus tasked with promoting a neutral point of view (above all else) of the categories of information listed. As an aside, I have noticed that the link to citation #66 is broken and the link attached to Peter J. D'Adamo misroutes users to a page on "blood type diet", not that alumni's WP page.  If he has no page, the link should be deleted. If he has a page, the link should be corrected. Thank you.Dblanton03 (talk) 21:58, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry DB, you don't make the rules here as to how we edit the encyclopeadia, we are governed by Policy and Guidelines which we have been trying to explain to you. Bastyr I'm afraid is not a normal institute of higher education, but one dedicated to Fringe ideas and the teaching of unscientific nonsense. Wikipedia requires us to reflect that. To compare it to such august establishments of higher education as you have is rather optimistic, and frankly is asking too much. You ask that we should provide useful information about the school and its alumni, and that is certainly what we are doing. I would like to thank you in this regard, as since your involvement here, the alumni section has been considerably improved, giving better information to readers about the type and quality of the edumacation you provide. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 23:07, 11 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I have read the Policy and Guidelines thoroughly, and have cited them to you above (which you do not address). From your comment, I can see that you refuse to approach this conversation from a neutral point of view (reference "edumacation") or with any aim at working together to ensure the page meets WP Guidelines, while at the same time, presenting neutral and unbiased information about the University.  The alumni section, as it currently stands, is completely out of character for sections about notable people and definitely contains more information than is necessary for this type of page.  While WP may consider naturopathy to be a 'fringe' topic, formatting guidelines nevertheless apply.  I will circle back around to this section, but for now, wish to press forward.  Under 'California campus', can we please update the sentence to read "The California campus offers a doctor of naturopathic medicine degree program, and also a master of science in nutrition for wellness degree." and "The first class of students graduated in spring 2016."Dblanton03 (talk) 15:27, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Call for close
I move that we close this discussion as being nonproductive. I refer Dblanton03 to WP:1AM for practical advise on how to move forward with this. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:04, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Distinction between Bastyr University and Naturopathic Medicine
I am new to this discussion, so if I appear ignorant in any form I ask that you kindly inform me. I am wondering if this article could possibly failing to make a distinction between Bastyr University as an educational institution, and Naturopathic medicine as a way of practicing medicine. When reading through the article and reading through discussions above, it seems like both are being treated as the same thing. Bastyr is not fringe...Bastyr is a very real institution and it's existence can be proven, as the state of Washington accepts it as an educational institution. However, I would agree that on the topic of Naturopathic medicine we could still consider it fringe as it is not the most widely accepted way to practice medicine. The article does not appear to make a distinction between the two though, giving the educational institution unfair representation as it is being considered the exact same thing as the medical practice. To exemplify this; Harvard may teach law and provide law degrees, but Harvard is not in fact the practice of literally idea of law... Harvard is just an educational institution.

If I am completely wrong please let me know. I know I don't have any citations, but I am asking more about the logic behind why Bastyr is being considered fringe while at the same time it's existence can be proven and it IS part of main stream education system due to the fact that it meets the same exact qualifications needed to be considered a real educational institution in the state of Washington and the federal government (as federal financial aid is provided to students who wish to attend Bastyr). One of the subjects taught at the institution may be considered fringe, but the existence of Bastyr University cannot be disproved.

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts on this idea. If my logic seems off, please let me know specifically where it is wrong. Counseling psychology is a program there as well, which one of the above editors own profile state's is part of Wikipedia's science based ideals. Sauterm (talk) 00:49, 5 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Not sure what you mean. Of course the bricks and mortar of Bastyr are not fringe, but the stuff that is taught - which is after all the chief aspect of an educational establishment - is. What we have seems well-sourced and neutral. We have be clear that naturopathy is a load of BS. Alexbrn (talk) 06:15, 5 April 2019 (UTC)


 * , I think what alludes to is the undue weight given to criticizing Bastyr's programs of naturapathy and other questionable programs. Bastyr also has programs that are not psuedoscientific, such as midwifery (accredited by the Midwifery Education Accreditation Council (MEAC)) & nutrition (accredited by the Accreditation Council for Education in Nutrition and Dietetics). There is but a cursory mention of these two programs & the psychology program in the lead sentence of the article, & 80% of the lead is spent attacking the school's programs that can be considered psuedoscientific. There is no mention of the exercise science program whatsoever. We have failed to achieve neutrality in this article by not "separating the wheat from the chaff". Peaceray (talk) 15:52, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Just as long as we label nonsense as such. -Roxy, the dog . wooF 16:06, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Do you have sources discussing those programs showing that they are particularly significant? Accreditation should be run of the mill for any university. Is one of them best in something? So far the most significant thing about the university seems to be its pseudoscientific side, so without anything else I don't see that we have a weight problem. Doug Weller  talk 17:03, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Before searching for secondary sources, it might be useful to look at what Bastyr claims. at they says "Although the school started as a naturopathic medicine college, Bastyr University now offers more than 20 degree and certificate programs." At  they list them:
 * *Bachelor of Science in Health Psychology - Integrated Wellness
 * *Bachelor of Science in Health Psychology - Pre-med Track
 * *Bachelor of Science in Herbal Sciences
 * *Bachelor of Science in Integrated Human Biology
 * *Bachelor of Science in Nutrition
 * *Bachelor of Science in Nutrition & Culinary Arts
 * *Bachelor of Science in Nutrition & Exercise Science
 * *Birth Doula Training Workshops
 * *Childbirth Educator Training
 * *Chinese Herbal Medicine Certificate
 * *Dietetic Internship - Nutrition
 * *Doctor of Acupuncture & Oriental Medicine
 * *Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine
 * *Doctorate in Acupuncture Medicine
 * *Holistic Landscape Design Certificate
 * *Lactation Educator Training
 * *Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology (licensed mental health counselor)
 * *Master of Arts in Maternal-Child Health Systems (midwife)
 * *Master of Public Health (certified community health education specialist)
 * *Master of Science in Acupuncture
 * *Master of Science in Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine
 * *Master of Science in Midwifery
 * *Master of Science in Nutrition
 * *Master of Science in Nutrition / Didactic Program in Dietetics (registered dietitian)
 * *Master of Science in Nutrition and Master of Arts in Counseling Psychology
 * *Post-Baccalaureate in Naturopathic Medicine
 * *Post-Baccalaureate in Nutrition
 * *Postpartum Doula Training
 * Accreditation info is here:
 * --Guy Macon (talk) 18:35, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * A better barometer might be:
 * By my count, the rest about 60% of the enrollment is in Naturapathy, Herbology, and "Traditional World Medicines";cannot be (neatly) categorized as psuedoscientific. Are any of these non-psuedoscientific studies significant? I would argue that the Department of Midwifery is, as one of 11 schools accredited by the Midwifery Education and Accreditation Council. I believe that the Midwifery school is well known in the Western United States, perhaps due to its decades of existence as the Seattle Midwifery School before it merged with Bastyr in 2009. It seems to rank highly among the direct-entry midwifery programs based on my Google queries.
 * Peaceray (talk) 21:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Peaceray (talk) 21:05, 7 April 2019 (UTC)

Notable Alumni
Surely there are notable alumni, besides Ms. Hermes the anti-naturopathic activist, who are not infamous persons mired in scandal.Tom Cod (talk) 02:01, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * That may be your view, but we need sources. Alexbrn (talk) 06:47, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * What happened to the Alum whose techniques include injecting curcumin and oil mixture into a vict patient? -Roxy, the dog . wooF 06:19, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Kim Kelly? Still listed. Alexbrn (talk) 06:24, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I looked quite carefully before making that comment. I'm shocked, and resolve to improve my concentration. -Roxy, the dog . wooF 06:46, 1 September 2019 (UTC)