Talk:Bat Ayin

The United Nations is a valid source of information
Burkina Faso is trying to claim that the events of January 28th never happened. To quote - "never happened, bad source" "(not reliable 3rd party sources, get the ny times, msnbc, etc. if it really happened)"

Footnote number 22 is from the United Nations report. seen here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.33.72.77 (talk) 12:59, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Violence/Terrorism
Can you give me a reason why the violence in Bat Ayin was not a terrorist attack? What was your reason for changing? I'd like to know, otherwise I will change it back. Leppi 18:01, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
 * since you have not given me a reason, not identified who you are, I am changing the article back to the original format. Leppi 11:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Why only one incident recorded? what about all the others around Bat Ayin?....There are loads both Israeli and Palestinian....Or is someone only recording Israeli dead?.....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 22:22, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I don't think news/recentism incidents should be in locality articles in the first place. But given that, Levanon wasn't just killed somewhere else, he was murdered right next to his hometown which makes it doubly worthy. The effort by some to clutter locality articles into lists of local incidents, no matter how well referenced, might be considered reducing the quality of WP. --Shuki (talk) 07:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Removing clearly referenced material dealing with recent activities by Bat Ayin settlers of direct relevance to an event which is cited in the article diminishes it value and opens the charge of biasRod Hagen (talk) 23:18, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Can you comment on what I actually did? (rm new accusation withourt RS, weasel words, POV, copyvio, copyedit). Of course, I AGF, but the activity is not recent at all, the language was not NPOV, the sentences were copy&pasted from the article, and the information needed editing. I did not blank that information nor deny it happened. If you choose to develop it from there, I suggest opening a new article to develop the idea. --Shuki (talk) 13:48, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * the "language" was based on the style of language used in the discussion of the attack on the Israeli child, Shuki. The "event" is far, far more recent than another mentioned in the same article, and the discussion was not "copy and pasted" from the B'Tselem article. I wrote it myself. If it is similar, it is simply because it was fresh in my mind.   Perhaps you could indicate which words within it you regard as "weasel words"?  Its time that matters such as this were treated even-handedly, don't you think, rather than reflecting simply one side of the story? I personally have no association with either side of the conflict. How about you? Just by the way, the "weapon", clearly shown in various TV footage of the aftermath of the most recent event, was clearly a mattock, not an axe.    I have left your other changes, though I am not altogether happy with them.  Rod Hagen (talk) 10:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The term "blade" should be replaced by "mattock" if that is what it was. A "blade" could be anything from a pen-knife to a broad-sword. Every article including al-Jazeera said axe. Labellesanslebete (talk) 19:38, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of material from Btselem
Material sourced to Btselem has been deleted twice by claiming it is not an WP:RS. Is there evidence from reliable sources that it is an "extremist, fringe" group or unreliable? Please post any such info to the talk page.  T i a m u t talk 23:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

And Shuki, I removed "alleged". Its a WP:WEASEL word.  T i a m u t talk 23:16, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Btselem is not a RS, yet it is still legitimate enough to claim things as well as I think to add background that might not get into a news article in addition to a reference from a RS. The most recent example of Btselem's lack of credibility being exposed is an Israeli Air Force bombing of a militant compund in 2004 killing 14. The media in Israel and Gaza, and Hamas confirmed an attack on a Hamas training compound, B'tselem insisted that they were civilian youth. (See Btselem talk page) and only now retracted that libelous claim. If this attack did occur, there should be an effort to find sources in the Israeli or Arab media, in Hebrew or Arabic. Until then, Btselem is allowed to claim and alledge as usual. Perhaps 'claim' is a lighter word to use here. --Shuki (talk) 12:03, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly like Shuki said, B'Tselem is not a reliable source for facts. Because it is a notable organization, it would not be undue weight to include their claims, but they should be taken as just that—claims and allegations, and nothing more. —Ynhockey (Talk) 12:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

B'tselem seems to me that it should be included and is completely legitimate. Especially considering it has members in the Knesset and is widely accepted as a human rights group in Israel. Sure it has a point of view - I'm not going to argue about that - it should perhaps be noted in such a way to reflect that.

The Israeli human rights group B'tselem claims that _______________. Please can still disagree with what they say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Achamy (talk • contribs) 19:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Added POV tag
Fails to take note of Israeli human rights organizations (Btselem) point of view, Palestinian Arab & Israeli courts POV about the Bat Ayin Terror Cell. I'm requesting we some how incorporate the positive aspects of this settlement (organic agriculture, teaching, etc.) and Palestinian attacks upon Israeli civilians there while also noting its very real terrorist activity towards Palestinian civilians as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Achamy (talk • contribs) 19:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want to create an article on the cell, than this is not the place. This is a geography article about a locality. A properly weighted mention might be legitmate, though it would be good to see how the village contributed to the crime in that case. We don't include/expand all events in locality articles that residents carry out whether it be crimes, tennis champions, etc... --Shuki (talk) 20:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of Material from UN, JPost, Haaretz, Plus American Task Force
Burkina Faso: Please explain your rational for why the United Nations, the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, the Plus American Task Force and the Embassy of Zimbabwe are all disreputable sources. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhoftmarch (talk • contribs) 17:06, 5 May 2011 (UTC)


 * There are 2 sides that are in dispute. It not clear what happened as the different sides have different stories.

They were be presented as factual when there are big discrepancies. From Haaretz: “after settlers reportedly” “According to preliminary Palestinian reports” “reportedly resulted in the” “The group had at first said that armed settlers attacked them but further on in the investigation changed their testimony.”

--Burkina Faso (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't see why Haaretz use of the word "reportedly" makes this disreputable, especially considering the fact that the article is titled "Palestinian killed after settlers open fire in West Bank village." All of the 7 cited sources report that a 17-year-old boy was shot and killed by Bat Ayin residents on January 28, 2011. If you are concerned that the other side of the story is not being presented, I would encourage you to add whatever other information you deem relevant rather than deleting the post.

Without trying to take sides one way or the other, it is not clear exactly what happened from those news articles. Was there an investigation we can link to instead? Wikipedia strives to only contain facts, not to report our interpretation of them. Justintbassett (talk) 12:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

"The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Verifiability So Wikipedia strives to be verifiable. --71.33.72.77 (talk) 13:29, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Removed inadequately soiurced section, which contradicts the previous statements.
"It was founded on land purchased by the Jewish Agency in the early 1900s." Bat Ayin's web site is not a reliable source for its history oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo The history section of this article is really lousy. It says, "Eventually large lots of land were allocated to some 40 families.[2]" Allocated by who? Was the land just taken over, squatted on, or did the Israeli government allocate the land, or what? "People of the settlement did not come from the settler mainstream establishment. Many of the original settlers were raised on the 'hills'." I haven't the slightest idea what this means. What hills? Where? Who are the hill people? How do they differ from the settler mainstream establishment? Where do the people in the settler mainstream establishment usually come from?173.165.43.221 (talk) 15:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
 * TIt says the land was bought by the Jewish agency in the early 1990s and then the settlement was founded.
 * This contradicts the previous datum, independently verifiably, that the settlement was founded in 1989.Nishidani (talk) 16:34, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Lousy because RS aren't particularly informative, and we are bound by wiki sourcing protocols to restrict what information we give to reliable sources. We can't invent things to satisfy our curiosity. Everything RS give has been paraphrased without attempts to imagine anything. As to 'hills', the reference is to hilltop youth. If that is not linked, I will do so now.Nishidani (talk) 15:37, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added tag to http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1171894524591
 * Added tag to http://fr.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1239710840344
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120518111207/http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F42AB33A1D1B94D98525782C005139C1 to http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/F42AB33A1D1B94D98525782C005139C1

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Neutrality
The Bat Ayin Underground section has materially totally unrelated to such an underground, including attacks on and murder of Bat Ayin residents. Plot Spoiler (talk) 18:11, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
 * That's far too vague to make sense, apart from the spelling error. Please list exactly the material you think problematical. If you cannot, then the tag won't stay up.Nishidani (talk) 19:22, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
 * What does this have to do with Bat Ayin Underground, for instance: "On April 2, 2009, an Arab wielding an ax entered Bat Ayin and murdered Shlomo Nativ, aged 13. A 7-year old child was also wounded." Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:03, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
 * So, you had a problem with the section name not applying to all the details there. The normal procedure is not to remove material, but reassign it to a more appropriately titled section, creating one where needed. I've just done so to meet your concerns. Nishidani (talk) 10:33, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110725045724/http://www.bat-ayin.org/73023/Rav-Daniel-Kohn to http://www.bat-ayin.org/73023/Rav-Daniel-Kohn

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