Talk:Batman Returns/Archive 1

WHY???
Max Shreck wants to build a "giant capacitor to suck power from the city." Does anyone have any theorys on what would have motivated him to want a giant capacitor?(69.180.43.235 21:43, 14 May 2007 (UTC)).

Reaction
The McDonald's tie in was NOT entirely cancelled,as there were plastic drink cups,etc. manufactured for the film. These can be found on Ebay, and I remember them myself,having worked for the franchise during this period
 * Are you American? That can change things. The tie-in was cancelled in the US, I know this, but very late - after production of the toys, posters etc. had already begun. In Australia, the tie-in went ahead. This should probably be mentioned in the article. ~  Swi tch t 10:24, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I am, and I remember the cups were all over the place. My family took a road trip to California at the time which meant lots of McDonalds.  I remember the toys they replaced them with were NBA toys and that they recycled the Batman Returns toys in a Batman the Animated Series line of cars.

Nihilistic
The line quoting the critic who claims Batman Returns is nihilistic is immediately countered with "(despite there being no nihilism in the movie)." Isn't that a POV? - guest.

Also, shouldn't the 'best Batman movie' line be quantified or proven?

Trivia
The Trivia section reads to me like it's been copy/pasted directly from IMDb's trivia page - can anyone clarify this, and if so, I'm assuming that this shouldn't happen? Check out the revisions of around 29th/30th December. Also, going through to TMC1982's talk page makes it clear that he has a history of posting copyrighted material... Satansrubberduck 02:39, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Trivia section
Hi:

I reorganised the trivia section. The higgeldy-piggeldy collection of stuff has been collated into Writing the Film, Casting the Film, Making the Film and Trivia. One quibble I have, I put the two trivia elements about the very last shot of the film in the last section. Theoretically they could go in Writing or Making but it felt right to end the page with discussion about the last shot.

Gothic atmosphere
In the sentence in the first paragraph about Danny Elfman's score, I changed the link attached to the word 'gothic' from goth to gothic horror (redirects to gothic novel), which I think is a better link -- the movie had nothing to do with modern goth culture. ArglebargleIV 08:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Burton's Arc
After the completetion and release of the film, Tim Burton was interested in directing a third entry in the franchise, when during an early meeting with the studio executives about the possible third installment, Warners made it clear that they didn't want Burton making another film (due to the critical fallout, despite the film's strong financial success), Burton has since noted that Warner Bros. hadn't outright said "no" to his return, but that it was obvious they didn't want him to make another 'Batman' film.

Those Batman fans who support Burton thereafter analyzed the characterization of Batman that Burton had created, and came to the conclusion that he was crafting an arc for the character. In similar fashion to other stories, the first installment (BATMAN) introduces and establishes the character, the second installment (Batman Returns) sends the character down a dark path, and the third installment redeems the character. Fans feel that getting to have his revenge on the murderer of his parents (The Joker) made Batman a bit bloodthirsty, explaining his further rage and viciousness in Returns, when, toward the end of the film, after seeing himself reflected in Catwoman, he begins to realize how far gone he is, and hopes to move back with Selina's help. However, Selina's instability and disappearance keeps Bruce in purgatory, unable to fully redeem himself. His move back toward heroism is reflected in his refusal to kill Max Shreck near the end of the film, and his lack of attempts to kill the Penguin (Though it happens anyway).

Still other fans, following this logic, feel that, upon further inspection, Batman, when under this period of duress and instense revenge-fueled anger (During Returns), goes from being a hero in the first film, into an anti-hero in the second. Further, some fans consider him one of the villains, just the least-evil among the four (Batman, The Penguin, Catwoman and Max Shreck), this could be true, seeing as the city "belongs" to Batman at the beginning of the film, and is taken away by the Penguin, which creates a power struggle for the "king" of Gotham City, a throne which Batman seems to occupy with an iron fist, though in the name of vigilante justice.

Though the character arc was not concluded by Burton's hands, the sequel Batman Forever does resolve the arc presented by him, where Batman, now no longer vengeful, is still in an identity crisis and emotional duress, however, his salvation comes in the form of Dick Grayson, who Bruce is able to help direct on the road away from revenge, and, in the process, help himself back to the "light" as well.


 * Fascinating review, but sources? If we can find any this has got to go back into the article right away, it's that good.  As it stands now, though, it's likely original research.  CanadianCaesar The Republic Restored 12:06, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The first paragraph, the discussion about WB and Burton not returning, is taken from the main documentary on the second disc for the recent DVD special edition of the film, though summarized from Burton's account of the factual meeting.

WHOA! Huge Plot summary.
SUMMARY people, not novel. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 01:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it seemed pretty large before I rewrote it anyway. Lenin &amp; McCarthy 08:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * As for "Dramatis Personae", I guess I've read a bit too much Wookiepedia lately.--Lenin &amp; McCarthy 08:21, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It being on national TV the other night probably gave it some bloat. BabuBhatt 08:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm in Britain. I just like the film. Lenin &amp; McCarthy 08:34, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I do too. BabuBhatt 08:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It was here? I didn't see it. Lenin &amp; McCarthy 08:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

At any rate, the summary needs to be condensed a LOT ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 04:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC). It would be nice if you Bat-fans could get some references in there too, and expand the production section.

Edits to lead characters' actors
Removed the info on the actors from the text, as that sort of information belongs on the individual actor pages and seems rather silly in the description. Anyway, just a bit of grammatical and Common Sense(TM) editing from me this time.--Snowgrouse 15:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
 * By that logic, the info about the character should be on the characters page as well. ....(Complain)(Let us to it pell-mell) 00:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

A three-thousand six hundred word summary?
What pompous undergraduate was at work here? Three thousand, six hundred words. That's probably more dialogue than there is in the fucking movie.

We know. But no one has tried to condense it yet. Lenin &amp; McCarthy 06:49, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Saw the movie on TV this morning and decided to give the much needed rewrite a shot. I agree that the summary is way too long, but out of respect to the original author I'll try to keep some of his original text, just shorten most of the paragraphs and delete the extensive quotes that give away some of the best lines in the film. 2:50 PM, 15 August 2006

Mayor Hill
Someone wrote that the mayor in question is called "Hamilton Hill". I just Googled him, and it turns out that that is the name of the mayor in the animated series, but I couldn't find anything about that name for the film. I've also read the novelization, and the was no mention of him there either.--Lenin &amp; McCarthy 11:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Production: original research & a suggestion
The early stuff in the Production section is largely false. It was never about money for Michael Keaton, and there's never been any evidence to suggest it. The A&E Biography special on him proves so. He rejected increasingly-lucrative deals from WB to play Batman in the third film and turned them down. He never, ever asked for more money, or even made terms requiring Burton to be around. He was on board Batman Forever even after Burton left the director's chair, though it wasn't long.

Also, the DVD featurette disproves Warners being nervous about Burton's script or Burton requiring any terms of his contract. Burton assistant Denise DiNovi admits on-camera that they "really wanted Michael Keaton" back, and that they had to make sure he wanted to come back. Does that sound like they demanded him in a contract? The DVD features also reveal that Warner Bros. let Burton had free reign over the film: they never had a problem with anything he did until the review for Batman Returns started rolling in.

Removed unless someone can somehow find evidence.

The Burton films recieve a lot of flack and falsifying due to petty fanboys who feel that it is their duty as Batman Begins fans to make up negative rumors when it comes to Burton's films. I see it all the time and I know some Begins fans are just that pathetic. I then suggest that the Burton Batman entries go under some kind of semi-protection. I'm tired of having to correct lies about Michael Keaton being a jerk or practically leaving all of the fighting to stuntmen, as it's almost never true.

Opinions as references? No.
Also, the references section all lead back to a website article that is one man's set of opinions. Removed. This is biased and not allowed.

Marlon Wayans as Robin
This has never been confirmed by any source in all the years I've searched for one. I've marked it as a rumor.

Plot cleanup
I've just stripped about 1,100 words from the plot summary, but it's still too damn long (1,400 words plus). I've also removed the repition of plot points that occurred with the character list.  PacificBoy  19:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

YouTube links
This article is one of thousands on Wikipedia that have a link to YouTube in it. Based on the External links policy, most of these should probably be removed. I'm putting this message here, on this talk page, to request the regular editors take a look at the link and make sure it doesn't violate policy. In short: 1. 99% of the time YouTube should not be used as a source. 2. We must not link to material that violates someones copyright. If you are not sure if the link on this article should be removed or you would like to help spread this message contact us on this page. Thanks,---J.smith 03:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler
I agree with David that we don't really need a big ugly "spoiler" sign here. This is an encyclopedia and the spoilers serve no real encyclopedic purpose. --Tony Sidaway 00:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ice Princess
Can someone explain this?

The "Plot" situation has finally been fixed
Just to let everyone know.Wildroot 17:18, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

MySpace Profile Layouts
does anyone know of any websites that have a wide variety of Batman layouts? I want one of the Penguin

Schreck/Penguin partnership
Wasn't Schreck's and the Penguin's first "partnership" only formed to allow for the Penguin to research his ancestry? And it wasn't until Bruce Wayne (backed by the current mayor) refused to work with Schreck on the new power plant, that Schreck needed a new mayor to facilitate his plan. And thus he did not introduce the Penguin to his idea of him running for mayor, until the surprise "party"? I don't have the movie myself, so I am not entirely sure.. Poulsen (talk) 01:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Good article nominee
Please review this article, and if you seek improvements, contact me so it can be promoted to GA status. Go to Good article nominations. Wildroot (talk) 17:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

 * GA review (see here for criteria)


 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) It is stable.
 * No edit wars etc.:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
 * a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass/Fail:

Comments:
 * 1) "DeVito was the first and only choice for the Penguin, and writer Daniel Waters wrote the character with him in mind; and in turn, DeVito spent two hours a day in make-up." (Cast) This sentence is very awkward; it is connected with a semi-colon, but I see no relation between what comes before the semi-colon and what comes after it. This would only make sense if you were trying to remark that on account of the fact Daniel Waters wrote the Penguin with DeVito in mind, DeVito spent (or was willing to spend) two hours a day in make-up. If so, there's better ways to phrase it. If not, then the sentence really needs some work. In either case, very confusing. [[Image:Yes check.svg|30px]] I took out the make-up part as I don't really feel it's relevant that he spent two hours a day in prosthetics anymore. Wildroot 11:16, 08 January 2008 (UTC)


 * 1) "Burton felt that Pfeiffer "was the one and only other obvious choice for the role."" (Cast) A direct quote requires a direct cite, even if it's the same one used later in the paragraph.  The same goes for "a most dumbfounded idea" under "Production",  four more under "Writing",  four more under "Music"  and Waters' reference to Spiderman in "Reaction"
 * 2) "Sean Young, who was originally cast in Kim Basinger's role as Vicki Vale in the first film before she became injured (in a horse riding accident), believed the role should have gone to her." (Cast) This sentence runs like it was in the New York Marathon. It should be split into two.
 * 3) "Even though the film was considered by many to be "too dark,"" (Reaction) Is this presumption covered by the cite at the end of the paragraph. If so, it needs to be directly cited (see #2) or if not, it just needs to be cited period.
 * 4) "Batman Returns is currently the fourth highest grossing Batman film to date," (Reaction) Encyclopedic articles, especially Good ones, should not be temporally dynamic; therefore "currently" should be replaced with something like "As of 2008". Same with "Currently it is the second highest ranked Batman film listed on Rotten Tomatoes, only below Batman Begins", which also requires a citation

I took out that part as I don't really feel it's relevant or important anymore. Wildroot 11:22, 08 January 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) "This style of film making is what many consider "style-over-substance."" (Reaction) requires a citation
 * 2) Sorry, I forgot one more thing, since I've changed my review style to review the lead last. The lead needs to conform to WP:LEAD. Specifically, it must cover all the major points/headings made in the body of the article. There is nothing on plot and not enough on production, at the very least. Also, it must not introduce any facts that are not present in the body of the article. The last sentence, about the third movie, doesn't seem to be in the body of the article, aside from the fact that Schumacher directed it.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadian Paul (talk • contribs) 19:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

To allow for these changes to be made, I am placing the article on hold for a period of up to seven days, after which it may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work thus far. Cheers, CP 08:15, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, everything is done. Cheers. Wildroot 15:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The lead still doesn't make reference to the "Music" section, or the awards that it was nominated for. Once it does, however, it should be ready for GA status. Cheers, CP 00:12, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, everything looks good now, so I'll be passing this as a Good Article. Congratulations, and thank you for your hard work! Cheers, CP 00:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Fantasy Film??
In the intro it says it's "fantasy". It should be "action" or something like that. M.nelson (talk) 21:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
 * In some ways it could be a fantasy, such as scenes like Selina Kyle's transformation into Catwoman and the look of the Penguin. -- Harvey "Two-Face" Dent  (Muhaha!!) 14:26, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Soundtrack
I believe it deserves to at least be listed on this page. It had a main title song and corresponding video and everything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.162.122.6 (talk) 03:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Christmas film?
Any idea why this is categorized as a Christmas film? I don't see any real reference to Christmas in the text. I'm currently tagging for the Christmas task force and, maybe, Christmas portal, and wouldn't mind having a GA to add to the portal rotation, but am not sure whether this article really relates to Christmas or not, or even why the category is there. John Carter (talk) 02:02, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Just the plot is happening around the time of christmas and you can see a christmas tree and some presents in it. Nonetheless, I would NOT categorize it as a "christmas movie". If we categorize every movie which shows christmas trees or some part of the plot take place by the time of christmas, we would have to categorize Die Hard as a christmas movie (which someone already did!!). That´s quite strange and pointless and has of course nothing to do with christmas movies. Well, some people overdo things! --93.133.215.199 (talk) 11:28, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Excessive Plot detailse
The plot "summary" seems excessively detailed (and very poorly written). I was unable to locate the correct location to read up on the guidelines for plot summaries, so this is just my gut level feeling on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Corwynofamber (talk • contribs) 01:39, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Quit/Fired
If there are reliable, verifiable sources for both versions of wht Burton didn't direct the next film, both version should be in the article. Wikipedia doesn't get to push one version over the other.

- J Greb (talk) 01:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Diving scene with Christopher Walken
After having seen the film for the first time yesterday I am a bit confused. It is often said that Christopher Walken is a non-swimmer. However, in this film there is a short diving scene with him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.141.37.200 (talk) 13:20, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Time period?
I was confused: A CD player is used and the cars seemed to be modern, but the clothes looked mid-2oth century. Is there any documentation on what time period the story is supposed be in?!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.225.33.104 (talk) 03:23, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Penguin's Death
The article has been reading lately that toxic waste killed the penguin. This is rubbish. The area where he landed was right where the penguins had been swimming moments before, and obviously, he wouldn't let his penguins swim in toxic waste. So, when he falls there, it can be easilly deduced that stress from the fight, the fall, and the destruction of the giant air-cooler (which Catwoman destroys) is actually what killed him. Not that toxic waste magically materialized there.

Plus, he stated earlier that he is cold blooded, and right before he dies, he claims "The heat's getting to me," which is further evidence that the stress and heat is what killed him. MaximumMadnessStixon (talk) 19:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Then it´s (at least) an illogical goof, since he was born into a regular environment and lived as a baby together with his parents in a regular tempered house and in their rooms. It´s impossible and quite stupid to suggest a warm-blooded creature turns into an cold blooded one, only because he lives for some years in an cold environment. So it´s a flaw of the script. --93.135.109.107 (talk) 11:24, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

But, he could've gotten really used to cold environments since, and his hideout probably wasn't just room temperature, it was probably HOT, because of the missiles hitting it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emeeme2003 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

For me, the Penguin's death is the saddest part of the entire movie. Nate-Dawg921 (talk) 18:06, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Post-Credits Scene Scource?
Is there a source for the post-credits scene that was added to the plot section on May 5th, 2008? It isn't in the TV edit, VHS verison, original DVD, or SE DVD of the film. Lisper em (talk) 19:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. I wasn't even aware the Mayor had a name. --86.137.139.164 (talk) 00:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It isn't a post credit scene. It is a post production scene where Catwoman stares at the Batsignal. --Zinthos7 (talk) 04:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

New following
Will someone please add something that tells how the film found a more mixed view over the years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.219.27 (talk) 19:51, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Rotten Tomatoes has been updated over the years and it still has generally favorable reviews. You might be able to find interviews with comic book writers that gave a more mixed response. Wildroot (talk) 23:49, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
 * okay, rotten tomatoes is just one reviewer website, so I'll look for other sources that show why it found a more mixed response, and I will make sure it is not a blog. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.101.152.251 (talk) 22:21, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Article Missing Key Notes
I specifically remember this film doing poorly in its time. It did not bomb, but it was not a great commercial success. After a good opening weekend it tanked down to 8'th place or so. I vividly remember this because I was a huge Batman fan as a kid and paid very close attention to those details at the time. Also, critics originally panned the film. I came here after "Rotten Tomatoes" actually to learn why the film's popularity reversed over time, only to read an article written as if the film had always been a critical success. Far from it. I liked it as a kid, but I was disappointed by how so many critics hated it, on top of its poor success. Neurolanis (talk) 09:47, 31 March 2016 (UTC)

Burton’s “mixed emotions”
Could someone provide a quote or something confirming the claim about Burton’s “mixed emotions toward Batman (1989)”? The given quote doesn’t seem to have anything to do with such, and I have no access ot the cited source. —67.14.236.50 (talk) 05:49, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Bill Finger-Creator of Batman
Can Bill Finger please have his name credited under the “Based on” category? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:6000:1501:9110:50B6:62AD:85D9:C08 (talk) 03:32, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Bill Finger Co-creator Credit
I've added Bill Finger to the infobox under the "based on" section along with Bob Kane. As I've stated on the other Batman film pages Finger is now an acknowledged co-creator of Batman. I think it's important to add this to each page since it keeps the pages as factual as possible - without this note in the infobox there is little or no reference to Finger as the co-creator, while some mention of Kane's contribution is still present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Friendly Lobotomy (talk • contribs) 19:46, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Yes, can we please address this issue? It is a moral duty that we give credit to the sole creator of Batman. 2605:6000:1501:9110:50B6:62AD:85D9:C08 (talk) 03:44, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Larry Franco position in this movie
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batman_Returns&oldid=prev&diff=915734895 My edit of adding Batman Returns is reverted by a random stranger. I put Larry Franco because it said he co-produce this based on his wikipedia page. And said wikipedia page stayed. It is really funny how he doesn't bother correcting the other wiki page then, either for his laziness or he afraid his edit too will get reverted — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hyoroemon2 (talk • contribs) 23:42, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2020
Could I correct Box office gross to the gross listed in this article. https://batman.fandom.com/wiki/Batman_Returns#cite_ref-0 2607:FEA8:4EA0:451E:41D:DDC:AF2C:7470 (talk) 23:54, 22 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Boxoffice Mojo is the best source. Either get consensus here or leave it as it is. Sundayclose (talk) 00:11, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2022
All the information for this movie is all wrong. I wish to correct it so all the viewers can find the actual facts of this blockbuster movie. 2600:1700:8780:4600:9029:B584:F01B:A827 (talk) 22:05, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:16, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Misspelling of Cobblepot
In the very first instance of the character name, it is mistakenly spelled "Cobblepot". I would correct it, but the article has been locked for some unfathomable reason. 174.68.157.5 (talk) 23:46, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't see it misspelt anywhere, you'll need to be more specific, Cobblepot is the correct spelling. Darkwarriorblake / Vote for something that matters 09:10, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

Antisemitism?
The "Commercialism and loneliness" section contains a preposterous suggestion that this film is antisemitic. First of all, antisemitism has nothing to do with "commercialism and loneliness."

Secondly, this is clearly nothing more than an attempt to shoehorn a controversial topic into this article. It seems to me that the edits were likely made by one of the two authors of the New York Times article being cited, in an attempt to self promote.

Considering the film does not contain any antisemitic material whatsoever, the New York Times article itself was nothing more than a rather pathetic attempt by the authors to gain attention for themselves by making a mockery of actual antisemitism.

The entire section containing any absurd accusations of antisemitism should be removed immediately. 2601:40D:C100:C6F0:85EA:C5F3:7159:F827 (talk) 20:12, 22 March 2023 (UTC)