Talk:Battle Hymn of the Republic/Archive 1

I don't see the need to have the word "the" in the title. It's commonly omitted. --Jiang 08:45, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Why is the one section in quotes? That one verse, "As ye deal with my condemners, so with you my grace shall deal; Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with His heel, Since God is marching on.", It's in quotes, but I don't know what it's quoting. It's certainly not quoting the bible, the bible never did any rhyming, so I was thinking it was possibly a famous poem or something, but I've never heard it.


 * The first line of that verse is "I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel." The remaining three lines tell what was written in that "fiery gospel."  That's why they are in quotes.  It's not referring to a quote that existed outside of the song.  Does that make sense?  65.26.154.192 18:41, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Where did the sixth verse come from? When you look at the Atlantic Monthly, there are only five verses. That is answered in the third paragraph of the history section.

What makes it a French song? All evidence says it was written by Americans and published by Americans, in American magazines, even the original tune.

Influence: In other songs
The first bullet point there, which mentions a piece by Mikhail Vinogradov, needs to be cited. Without a citation, this is poor musicology. The citation must prove that Vinogradov knew the Battle Hymn tune before he composed his piece which supposedly quotes it musically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Musica2 (talk • contribs) 14:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

UGA Refrence
Whoever added the UGA part to this article has obviously never been a student of the university. The fight song is not Battle Hymn nor "Glory". It is Hail to Georgia. Battle Hymn and Glory are considered "Spirit Songs", Hail is the Fight Song.--Txredcoat 07:34, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Because I'm a good sport, I've reverted this. I can't find the documentation stating this. I've reverted the article to it's previous condition. Apologies.--Txredcoat 07:41, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I am not a student of the university, but I have lived in Athens all my life. I was always under the impression that this is the fight song, but apparently it is Hail.  Will change.  Sensation002 15:55, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

The Atlantic Monthly 1862
The Atlantic Online's January 2005 decision to make the 1862 pages available to subscribers only is a great loss (and in my opinion stypid). Any copyright on this material has long sense expired.

Atlantic Online also has a faximile version of the page from 1862 available online. I can no longer access it, as I am not a subscriber, but I guess this link still works: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/battlehymn-original.htm

I believe this magazine page with Julia Ward Howe's original words should be added as an image to the wikipedia article. As the page is over 140 years old copyright is not an issue. As I can not access the webpage, I ask someone who is a Atlantic Online subscriber to add the image to wikipedia (or email the .gif file to me).

--Petri Krohn 04:11, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Hmm... apparently they protected the article about it but not the image file, which I found through google on their site and will put in the article shortly.--Pharos 04:26, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Variations
I believe different branches of the military have their own versions of this song? Would those also be added? Morhange 20:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

A number of web sources give a different version of the last verse. Actually, wikiquote does this and says it's "sourced" to the 1861 manuscript, so I guess I'll just make the change. Maloof 03:27, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Phrasing

 * a recording that replaced the line "let us die to make men free" with the less morbid "let us live to make men free", a variation that has since caught on to some extent.

I'm changing "less morbid" to "more cheery," as I don't think sacrifice in this context can accurately be termed morbid. --BDD 17:19, 8 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I originially wrote this as "more optimistic"; it's a bit of a tough thing to word right.--Pharos 07:35, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

Origin
I am not convinced about the following text:

In 1960, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir won the Grammy Award for Best Performance by a Vocal Group or Chorus at the that year's awards ceremony with a recording that replaced the line "let us die to make men free" with the more cheery "let us live to make men free", a variation that has since caught on to some extent.

The clear implication is that this 1960 recording either was the origin of the "let us live" variation, or was the reason that this variation became famous. Is there actual evidence for this? I remember singing this song in (Catholic) church in the mid-1970's and we used the "let us live" variation. I'm skeptical that a 1960 variation would have caught on so quickly that it was being printed in hymnals of a different church by the mid-1970's. Plus, it seems logical to change "let us die" to "let us live" if you aren't a soldier fighting to free slaves!

So I am wondering if perhaps this variation is quite a bit older. Lawrence King 09:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, is there any evidence the version you sung in church was more than 15 years old? It's a good thing to research, but I wouldn't change it unless there was.  After all, just because an idea seems "logical" now doesn't mean it occured to folks years ago.--Pharos 14:52, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to change the article, because I don't know it's wrong. All I'm saying is that the claim that the word-change stems from the 1960 performance seems unlikely to me -- and therefore I wonder if anyone has any evidence for this, or a source for this claim. Lawrence King 00:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Fateful or fatal; has or hath
I reverted edits by 72.47.16.69 and restored the lyrics to the Atlantic Monthly version. Also removed this note:
 * 1)  The poem goes the correct way, this was full of errors so it was corrected. For verification see http://www.poetryoutloud.org/poems/poem.html?id=173685

Seems like someone has a different view of the lyrics. -- Petri Krohn 14:41, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Reason for writing
"Deeply offended, Ms. Howe was inspired to write new, pious words for the fighting men’s song, and the current version of “Battle Hymn of the Republic” was born." Is there a source for this? I haven't seen anyhting to indicate she was offended. In fact, her daughter claims she sang it here: http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/richards/howe/howe-I.html The most believable speculation I've seen, IMO, was it was to better honor John Brown. (Her husband secretly gave weapons and money to Brown)--Dufaeth 15:02, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree; I've never heard of this either. I've deleted "Deeply offended".  --Allen 22:18, 18 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I was just reading an article by the columnist Mark Steyn who had a write-up on the history of the “Battle Hymn of the Republic” and he states that the original song was not about John Brown the abolitionist, but someone else. According to his article [] the song was originally written about a Boston Scotsman also named “John Brown.” This is how he writes it up:


 * “Well, no, not exactly. “By a strange quirk of history,” wrote Irwin Silber, the great musicologist of Civil War folk songs, “‘John Brown’s Body’ was not composed originally about the fiery Abolitionist at all. The namesake for the song, it turns out, was Sergeant John Brown, a Scotsman, a member of the Second Battalion, Boston Light Infantry Volunteer Militia.” This group enlisted with the Twelfth Massachusetts Regiment and formed a glee club at Fort Warren in Boston. Brown was second tenor, and the subject of a lot of good-natured joshing, including a song about him mould’ring in his grave, which at that time had just one verse, plus chorus:

Glory, glory, hallelujah Glory, glory, hallelujah…


 * They called it “The John Brown Song”. On July 18th 1861, at a regimental march past the Old State House in Boston, the boys sang the song and the crowd assumed, reasonably enough, that it was inspired by the life of John Brown the Kansas abolitionist, not John Brown the Scots tenor. Last week, we were discussing lyrics featuring real people. But, as far as I know, this is the only song about a real person in which posterity has mistaken it for a song about a completely different person: “John Brown’s Body” is about some other fellow’s body, not John Brown the somebody but John Brown the comparative nobody. Later on, various other verses were written about the famous John Brown and the original John Brown found his comrades’ musical tribute to him gradually annexed by the other guy.”


 * Unless someone has some serious objections, I plan on making changes to reflect this view. -- L.J. Brooks 08:45, 22 may 2006 (UTC)


 * I remember reading something like that too recently, though probably not the same column. My impression was that the teasing toward the sergeant was about his sharing his name with the abolitionist... so that the connection with the famous Brown wasn't a total accident.  I could be misremembering, and I don't know where I read it, but I just thought I'd mention it.  --Allen 00:46, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It is still likely that Howe believed is was about "the" John Brown as many/most did. As far as who "JBB" was actually about, I think it should be written to show that it is debated, as the historical references I've seen indicate it was about "the" John Brown. (Though I don't know if there is a historical consensus on this)--Dufaeth 19:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Dufaeth - Agree with your statement. From the reading of Mr Steyn's coloumn (and other articles on the internet) Howe, and everyone else that heard the song that day, assumed that the song was about John Browne the abolutionist. Apparently, the song was something of an "in-joke" among the soldiers in the Second Battalion, Boston Light Infantry Volunteer Militia. What I'm going to do is add a couple of lines about John Brown the Scotsman. -- L.J. Brooks 18:00, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Maud Howe's biography says she wrote the song in 1861, not 1862. But I don't know anything about Bishop.--Dufaeth 19:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

...and location
The article currently relates almost side-by-side two different versions of when Julia Ward Howe first heard the "John Brown's Body" song : and then, two paragraphs later : I'm sorry I have no time to investigate further, but it seems to me some fixing is required here... Cheers Alain BECKER (w:fr) --62.212.107.234 18:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Julia Ward Howe heard this song during a public review of the troops in Washington"
 * "Julia was visiting a Union camp when she heard the soldiers singing "John Brown's Body"".

Variations?
Should the variations of the Battlehymn be mentioned? Most notably the "Wir sind Deutsche und wir kämpfen" song of the Blenker Division fighting for the union. The word are here in case someone wants to add them: http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/Lieder/wirsinde.html -Alex, 74.133.188.197 21:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC).

I think it should be mentioned Red1530 02:49, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Steffe's claim is not undisputed
The credit to Steffe for "Say, Brothers, Will You Meet Us" seems to be too strongly given in the article. Cornelius (2004; "Music of the Civil War Era". Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, pg. 26) says "Some scholars attribute...". Forman (1997; "The New Century Hymnal Companion". Clevaland, OH: Pilgrim Press) notes that an early form of the melody goes back at least to an 1851 songbook "Songs of Zion" that predates Steffe's claim by several years. Additionally, she says the words he claimed are "Say, bummers, will you meet us". Thoughts? --Bhabing 20:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Omitted verses
The article states that the sixth verse is often omitted. I have never heard the hymn without this verse (the reason it is not seen on the photo is presumably that it is on the next page) so it would be good is someone could say where it is omitted. I would have thought myself it was more usual to omit verses 2 & 3 (my experience is in Scotland: Hymnbooks of the Church of Scotland). --Doric Loon 14:09, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Battle Hymn complete printed music files for voice and all instruments
I wanted to suggest a resource to be added to the Battle Hymn page. I am a band director who does a unit each year on patriotic music with my elementary band students. I have several songs, including Battle Hymn that I have arranged and released into the public domain that I have made available for anyone to read, transpose, or print for their own use.

Complete Battle Hymn Sheet Music For Concert Instruments and/or Voice

The wiki article as it currently is shows a small bit of the music to Battle Hymn (in the Score section of the page), but it does not show the complete melody (the chorus and the last part of the verse is missing). Other links on the page link to a piano score, but nothing for individual instruments. The files I have created show the complete song, including lyrics for the voice part, and are very useful for anyone wanting to sing or play the song on any instrument or combination of instruments. All of the files can be instantly transposed and printed in any key needed by the user.

All of the files are free and are released into the public domain. Yes, there is a google ad at the top of the page, but I hope that is not a problem as it is an integrated part of the site template.

I look forward to hearing your comments on this suggestion. MaestroC 19:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Lyrics
Hello. I was told that you aren't allowed to put lyrics on Wikipedia. Is this true? If so, why are there lyrics in this article? Thanks. :) ɸSwannieɸ 01:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not true. The rule is that copyrighted lyrics may not be posted in their entirety. Song lyrics in the public domain should be included. See Lyrics_and_poetry. --Hakanai 13:36, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Title
I think the name is Battle Hymn of the Republic, without "The". Wikisource has it without The, as does the first Google hit. I'll move it if no one objects. Reywas92 Talk 01:46, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, according to The Atlantic, and other sites , it is called The Battle Hymn of the Republic.--EclipseSSD (talk) 21:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Lyrics
I thought it was "and the soul of wrong his slave" rather than time in the last verse —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.12.201 (talk) 22:26, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Some renditions of the lyrics in recent times, use different words. The lyrics here are the original. Generally, the changes dumb it down and perverse the meaning. For example, changing "Succour" to Honor because it is a more commonly known word, despite the substantial change in meaning, changing "let us die to make men free" to "let us live to make men free", to avoid sadness of death or the thought that one might dare to die on principle. The "soul of Time" is consciousness, which requires God to bind it together and with the world, and, the human souls hope, in slavery to the Greatest Good. Similar superficial dumbness occurs with modern translations of the Bible, and with footnotes to Shakespeare. —Centrx→talk &bull; 05:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

The Queen's Tribute to the dead of 11 September
"The Battle Hymn was played by the band outside Buckingham Palace, the primary residence of HM The Queen as an immediate tribute to the dead of 9/11 on September 12, 2001. The Guards outside the palace normally play British patriotic anthems and songs, making this a deliberate exception staged as a gesture of respect to the victims of 9/11 and an expression of the United Kingdom's solidarity with America."

I believe that it was in fact the The Star-Spangled Banner (YouTube) which was played at the changing of the guard on 12 September 2001. Also on a less important note I'm not sure you can call the Star Wars theme or Austin Powers theme "patriotic anthems and songs" of the United Kingdom! Roadnote  ♫  18:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)