Talk:Battle of Ayn al-Warda/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: Le Petit Chat (talk · contribs) 16:15, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Interesting article. Some minor comments.
 * Thank you Le Petit Chat for reviewing this.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Style
Please note that English is not my native language.

Intro
Two subordinate clauses in one sentence.
 * The Penitents were a group of pro-Alid Kufans led by Sulayman ibn Surad, a companion of Muhammad, who wished to atone for their failure to assist Husayn ibn Ali in his abortive uprising against the Umayyads, which led to his death at the Battle of Karbala in 680.
 * Simplified.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 14:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

After I read the belligerent section of the article, I think this sentence could be clearer. It is not easy to understand that the Penitents wanted to attack the Army of ibn Ziyad before he reconquers Iraq.
 * They were, however, deserted by most of their supporters shortly before the departure to northern Syria where a large Umayyad army under the command of Ubayd Allah ibn Ziyad was preparing to launch an assault on Iraq.
 * It is not stated in the sources that the Penitents wanted a preemptive strike against the Umayyads. It just happened to be that when the Penitents were ready to go against them, Umayyads had consolidated themselves in Syria and were preparing for reconquest of Iraq. Penitents had motives of self-sacrifice, not the defense of Iraq.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 14:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Background
I would have used plurals.
 * Arab custom and Islamic principle
 * Made "Islamic principles". I am not so sure of the other.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 14:06, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

At first, I did not understand that Hawting was the author of the quotation. You should make it clear by using , from the words of Hawting or according to G. R. Hawting. Or just give the author of the citation in a note.
 * who by virtue of their descent could lay "some claim to be considered as caliphal candidates" (Hawting),
 * Fixed.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Belligerents
6,000 is repeted two times. I would suggest something like ''Marwan defeated them with a small army of 6,000 at the Battle of Marj Rahit (684). Following the victory, Marwan sent his army, led by Ibn Ziyad, back to Iraq. Realizing that his forces were not strong enough to reconquer Iraq, Ibn Ziyad...''.
 * Marwan defeated them with a small army of 6,000 at the Battle of Marj Rahit (684). Following the victory, Marwan sent Ibn Ziyad back to Iraq. Realizing that an army of 6,000 was not enough to reconquer Iraq, Ibn Ziyad...
 * Done.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Could developed be replaced by raised.
 * Ibn Ziyad had developed a formidable army of Syrians
 * Done.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Battle
Who is them?
 * At al-Qarqisiya, the Qaysi refugees from the Battle of Marj Rahit of the previous year aided them with supplies. 
 * This ambiguity came from section rearrangements. Fixed.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Twice the same idea of an advice. Use "suggested a march", "advised him to marche", "declared he should march" or "suggested him to march" instead?
 * suggested that he should march
 * Done.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Who is the author of this quote? Zufar? Kennedy?
 * firing arrows at them and thrusting at them in an open space for they outnumber you and you cannot be sure that you will not be surrounded
 * Kennedy. Quote followed immediately by citation is clear enough I think.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Aren't dismounted troops always fighting on foot?
 * dismounting and fighting on foot
 * Fair enough. Fixed.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Since Ibn Ziyad is the commander of the army, talking about its two commanders seems strange. Maybe change it to disputes between the two lieutenants of Ibn Ziyad.
 * ... disputes between its two commanders. Some 8,000 troops were under the command of Shurahbil ibn Dhi'l-Kala, and the rest were under Husayn ibn Numayr.
 * Changed to "field commanders".  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I believe in order to be killed is a complex grammatical form.
 * the handing over of Ubayd Allah ibn Ziyad, the supreme commander of the Umayyad forces, in order to be killed for his involvement in the death of Husayn
 * To me it appears to be easily understandable, but, of course as the writer of the content, my view is biased. Removed "in order".  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Could be modified to Sulayman divided the Penitents army into three groups, since I forgot who was Sulayman as I read this.
 * Sulayman divided his army into three groups
 * Done.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I would have used "repel" since back is also used on the next sentence ( bn Ziyad sent Ibn Dhi'l-Kala back).
 * On the first day, the Penitents were able to drive the Umayyads back
 * Done.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Not logical, if the Umayyad numbers prevailed, the next sentence should not be centered about the forcing back of the Umayyads. I propose ''... the numerical superiority of the Umayyad army began to prevail. Despite holding the ground, the Penitents suffered severe losses''.
 * ... the numerical superiority of the Umayyad army began to prevail. Despite suffering severe losses, the Penitents were able to hold the ground.
 * Added "Nevertheless,", since emphasis is on their being able to withstand losses. I think your formulation is better. So done  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯)  17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Since the Umayyads are more numerous, isn't it stupid?
 * Ibn Surad ordered his men to dismount and advance on foot to engage in one-on-one combat. 
 * Yeah might be ;) Perhaps he was following Zufar's advise :-/  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Aftermath
Since survivors was used on the last sentence of the previous paragraph, could another word be used. Maybe who fled the battle or still alive?
 * The small number of Penitents who survived felt remorse for not having fulfilled their vows of sacrifice.
 * I think it is fine.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Since Ibn Surad and the Penitents movement are two entities, shouldn't the plural be used (for their lack of)?
 *  Mukhtar had been critical of Ibn Surad and the Penitents movement for its lack of organization and political program.
 * Removed Ibn Surad.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Because of the now, we are expecting the story to go on. Maybe use then instead?
 * Mukhtar's control now extended to most of Iraq, parts of the Jazira, Arminiya and parts of western and northern Iran (Adharbayjan and Jibal).
 * Changed.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Images

 * Images must be used. If no images of the battle are available, use at least images of Ummayad armies in the Belligerents section.
 * Added one.  AhmadLX - )¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 17:56, 8 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Maybe another image showing the current landscape of the region could help the reader?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 19:53, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find any on commons. Although there is one showing agricultural fields, it is unlikely to be similar to the landscape of the battlefield. AhmadLX-)¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 13:35, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Impact of the battle on the history of Islam
This battle in itself had no impact on history other than clearing way for Mukhtar. It has been treated in fair detail I think. But overall Penitents Movement did have some impact on Islamic history. In particular, mourning on Husayn's grave and self-blaming and flagellating found in contemporary Shi'ism have been traced back to the Penitents movement–but not this battle which was just an end to their movement. As such, I think it should be discussed in the article on Penitents movement. Similarly, the only primary source for this whole affair is Abu Mikhnaf. He is generally considered reliable, but his authenticity in the Penitents affair has been questioned by a couple scholars. It too should go into the main article in my view. AhmadLX-)¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 15:49, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Could some short details be added about the impact on further events? From the basis I had about Islam, the death of Husayn was linked to the Shia Islam. A ordinary reader (as I was before reviewing this article and reading Second Fitna) won't know who is Mukhtar. I think you should add some words about the influence of the Penitents on Islamic world. Feel free to discuss about it.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 19:52, 8 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your explanations about the Penitents. For the source, I think Abu Mikhnaf should be mentionned somewhere. For instance (I didn't find the perfect working): "According to the 8th Islamic historian Abu Mikhnaf,...", with a small note about the doubts on his reliability.
 * I added a footnote on this. AhmadLX-)¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 20:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * The only remaining question is the images. I would recommend you to add a map of the battle for instance, maybe ask the Graphics Lab/Map workshop.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 18:04, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * What kind of map? A relief map of the region or something else? AhmadLX-)¯\_(ツ)_/¯) 20:41, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Actually I was thinking about something else: a map of the positions and movements of the armies during the battle (like this: c:File:Battle of the Gebora-en.svg) and another for the strategic movements (like this: c:File:Battles of the Uganda–Tanzania War.svg). I think the latter will be useful by helping to situate the different places. The first map may be harder to do if no clear locations of the armies positions during the battle have been stated in the sources. Anyway, if some primary source are given, I think the article can pass the review without maps. --Le Petit Chat (talk) 22:06, 10 July 2019 (UTC)
 * That kind of map would require very detailed description of the tactics, topography, troops locations and movements. Unfortunately, there is not enough info on this in the sources–at least I'm not aware of any. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-<i style="color:turquoise">)¯\_(ツ)_/¯)</i> 22:19, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

Conclusion
The only remaining question being the maps, I conclude that this article is a good article for the criteria.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 21:51, 11 July 2019 (UTC)