Talk:Battle of Cēsis (1919)

Name
If the Latvians call it Cesis and the Estonians call it Vonnu, who calls it Wenden? LordAmeth (talk) 06:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It is the German name and the name by which it was known internationally until Latvian/Estonian independence. Ned de Rotelande 06:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nedrutland (talk • contribs)

Neutrality disputed
The article concentrates more on the Estonian and Latvian actions and commanders and is therefore biased. My recent attempt to fix the infobox towards an equal treatment of the Estonian and the German side was blindly reverted dismissing my arguments on a national basis. I am still waiting for legitimate arguments on why should the infobox list three commanders on the Estonian side and only one on the German side when the sides were practically equal in size (amounting to an extended division) and were both under unified command. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 21:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I can add german battailon commanders names. --Kurlandlegionar (talk) 10:17, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * So can I, but I find it redundant for the small compact unit at hand. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 12:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Firstly, during the battle there was a united Estonian Latvian headquarters, which was made of both Estonian and Latvian officers. Secondly, Latvian units who participated in the battle were officialy a part of Latvian Armed forces. Untill the official formation of Latvian army, June 6, 1919, the North brigade was subject to Estonian army. Therefore Jorģis Zemitāns as the commander of the North brigade, has to be mentioned in that article. Is the mention of Jorģis Zemitans so diminishing to the great contribution of Estonians and Estonian army? --Kurlandlegionar (talk) 13:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * There was no "united Estonian Latvian headquarters", there was the headquarters of the 3rd division. The North Latvian brigade was subjected to the 3rd division until the Strazdumuiža armistice, when the South Latvian Brigade crossed over from the Baltische Landeswehr and the headquarters of the Latvian Army was established. Latvia is marked as a belligerent side in the infobox, so the political situation is perfectly clear already without this me-too pushing of Zemitāns. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 14:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Source? --Kurlandlegionar (talk) 14:27, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The sources are the contracts made between the Republic of Estonia, as signed by Konstantin Päts, and the Republic of Latvia, as signed by E. Rammans, the Envoy of the Republic of Latvia in Estonia, and Captain Jorģis Zemitāns on 19 February 1919. I quote from Ülevaade Eesti Vabadussõjast (1918–1920) (Overview on Estonian War of Independence) (my own translation): "6. The formation of Latvian detachments within the borders of Estonia will take place at the orders of the Commander-in-Chief of the Estonian Army, to whom the Latvian detachments will subordinate in every aspect until the transfer of these to Latvian command." [...] "The right for the appointment and relocation of the commanders of the Latvian military until their transfer to the Latvian command will be granted to the Estonian Commander-in-Chief..." and "7. The transfer of the Latvian detachments to the Latvian command may take place only after the location of the headquarters of the Latvian units into the Latvian territory, i.e not before the conquest of the Limbaži-Valmiera-Smiltene-Aluksne line."


 * Here is the original text: "6. Läti väeosade formeerimine Eesti piirides sünnib Eesti vägede
 * ülemjuhataja korraldusel, kellele läti väeosad alluvad igas suhtes kuni Läti
 * juhatuse alla minekuni." [...]
 * "Läti sõjaväe juhtide määramise ja ümberpaigutamise õigus kuni läti juhatuse
 * alla minekuni antakse Eesti ülemjuhatajale,..."
 * "7. Läti väeosade üleminek läti juhatuse alla võib sündida läti vägede staabi
 * asumise momendist Läti territooriumile, s.o. mitte enne vägede poolt Lemsalu
 * —Volmari—Smilteni—Marienburgi joone vallutamist.""


 * Commander-in-Chief Johan Laidoner subsequently gave the following order to Viktor Puskar, commander of the 2nd Division:
 * „I order to form the headquarters of the Latvian brigade. I appoint Colonel Zemitāns as the commander of the Latvian brigade. Under the
 * commander of the Latvian brigade, I submit the 1st Latvian Valmiera regiment, 1st Latvian Battery and the Latvian reserve battalion. The :::::::Latvian brigade will temporarily remain under the command of to the chief of the 2nd division." [..] "Nr. 1465. Tallinn, 31. III. at 2030"


 * Here is the original text: "Käsen formeerida Läti brigaadi staabi. Läti brigaadi ülemaks nimetan
 * polkovnik Semitani. Läti brigaadi ülema alla annan 1. Läti Volmari polgu, 1.
 * Läti patarei ja Läti tagavara pataljoni. Läti brigaad jääb ajutiselt II diviisi ülema
 * käsutada."


 * On 18 May, the 2nd Latvian Cesis regiment, which was the only Latvian unit that participated in the battle of Cesis altogether, was formed from the Latvian reserve battalion and subordinated to the 3rd Division (see pages 13 and 43 from Overview on Estonian War of Independence).
 * The Republic of Latvia signed a contract with the Republic of Estonia, which stated: "§ 8. The Latvian national detachments designed by and standing under the Estonian supreme command will be fully transferred to the power of the Republic of Latvia from the moment when the front against the Bolsheviks south of Lake Luban is consumed by the forces of the Republic of Latvia.
 * These Latvian national detachments that fought under the Estonian supreme command against the Baltic Landeswehr will be considered as fully released from the Estonian Supreme Command from 6 July current year"


 * The original text reads as: "§ 8. Eesti ülemjuhatuse poolt kujundatud ja selle ülemjuhatuse all seisvad
 * Latvia rahvuslikud väeosad lähevad kõikepidi Latvia Vabariigi valitsuse
 * võimenduse alla sellest silmapilgust, kui võitlusrind enamlaste vastu
 * lõunapool Luubani järve Latvia Vabariigi vägede poolt oma alla võetakse.
 * Need Latvia rahvuslikud väeosad, mis Eesti ülemjuhatuse all
 * Balti Landeswehri vastu võitlesid, arvatakse kõikpidi Eesti Ülemjuhatuse alt
 * lahkunuks 6. juulist s.a. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:44, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * One more note. Most of the North Latvian brigade did not participate in the battle, as they were located in other front sections. The only Latvian detachment that took part in the battle of Cesis was the 2nd Latvian Cesis regiment, commanded by Colonel Krišjānis Berķis. The rest of the brigade was subordinated to the 2nd division. Therefore Zemitāns did not even give direct orders in the battle at all just like Commanders-in-Chief Johan Laidoner and Rüdiger von der Goltz did not and hence are not listed as the direct commanders. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 16:37, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, now I agree to you. --Kurlandlegionar (talk) 16:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)