Talk:Battle of Copenhagen (1807)

Ships and their names
Of the battleships which reached England, only 4 - Christian VII 80, Dannemark 74, Norge 74 and Princess Carolina 74 - were taken into British service.

Under what names were these ships commissioned into the Royal Navy? Bastie 04:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually these ARE the names under which these four vessels were added to the British Navy - any Danes will have already recognised that Princess Carolina is an anglicisation of the original Danish name Prindsesse Caroline. The other three did not change their names (the Christian VII was more usually referred to in Danish service as Christian den Syvende, so using the Roman numerals alone in British service saved the problem of translation!), but were adopted into the British Navy under the same names.

Not named in the introductory section of the article, another eleven Danish battleships were among the vessels taken by the British Navy - of which the 80-gun Neptunos was wrecked en route to Britain; the remaining ten were added to the British Navy also, but only saw service as harbour vessels. These were the 80-gun Waldemar (sister to the Neptunos) and nine 74-gun ships of the Prindsesse Sophia Frederica Class. Without wishing to self-promote, may I refer you to my 2005 book (British Warships in the Age of Sail 1793-1817 - see Reference sources cited at the end of the article) for full details of all these ships and of all the other vessels taken into the British service at Copenhagen in 1807?

I have added to the article a list of all the major British warships employed in the 1807 expedition to Copenhagen, and have done the same for the prizes seized from the Danish Navy (not those destroyed in the attack). Regards: Rif Winfield 86.132.139.7 06:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Historical myth?
Is there an external source to verify the last paragraph? This smacks of historical myth, so it would be good practice to back it up. - KD

I would imagine that the last paragraph was taken from the "Historical Notes" to Sharpe's Prey by Bernard Cornwell It certainly reads very similar. -Harlsbottom 00:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's unsourced, and I concur on it being "too good to be true", so I've taken it out for now. Shimgray | talk | 01:02, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It wasn't just similar, it was identical ... along with most of the article. I've tagged the article as a copyvio. Bah! CWC (talk) 05:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for removing the copyvio material. Valentinian (talk) / (contribs) 13:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

General Wellesley
Is is just me or does this read oddly and seem inconsistent? We have General Lord Cathcart but General Wellesley - dropping the 'Sir Arthur' Personally I'd remove both ranks as they were both mostly known by their titles, being as much politicians as generals. Alci12 23:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Lord Cathcart held a hereditary title and so was properly called Captain Lord Cathcart, Colonel Lord Cathcart, etc. Wellesley's proper style at the time was "Major-General The Rt Hon. Sir Arthur Wellesley, KB" (see Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington), for which General Wellesley is the proper short form. CWC (talk) 05:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Crown Prince
Shouldn't the words "Crown Prince" link to Frederick VI of Denmark, rather than to an explanation of the phrase? -KO

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.241.122.39 (talk • contribs)


 * Fixed. Well spotted. Valentinian T / C 21:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The ship "Havfruen 36"
The following ship appears twice: "Havfruen 36 - sailed to Britain, added to British Navy as Hasfruen 36". Is this on purpose? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Helth (talk • contribs) 13:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not to do with f turning to an s? (Stat-ist-ikk (talk) 12:05, 18 May 2010 (UTC))

preemptive
"The Second Battle of Copenhagen, (16 August - 5 September 1807) was a British preemptive attack on Copenhagen, targeting the civilian population in order to seize the Danish fleet." It is funny to read this in the article,written probably by british. The following logic must then be (provocative) "The blitz over England was an preemptive attack ,targeting the civil population,in order to make britain follow Germanys will" Or :"The german attack on Russia In ww2 was preemptive because nobody know what Stalin was planning etc etc".More simple it would be :Britain used powerpolicies against a smaller country,and (cynically) killed a lot of civilians to achieve its goals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.215.234.84 (talk) 11:53, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sure its not without reason that in scandinavian schoolbooks its called "The Rape of the Danish Navy" what the british did was a crime.. but the germans paid them back for us in 1940's ;)Sneaking Viper (talk) 16:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)


 * You made that up. //roger.duprat.copenhagen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.209.236.241 (talk) 09:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)


 * "Paid them back for us"? That would alledge that the Danes were siding up with the Germans. And this big country against small country bit, it is to say that Denmark never was a colonial power.(82.134.28.194 (talk) 07:02, 3 May 2010 (UTC))


 * I know I'm possibly 5.515.000 hours too late, but could Norway possibly just be given back Greenland from this "little" country. Please throw in the Faeroe Islands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.28.194 (talk) 06:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Anyone who knows that much of history, could tell us that 1807 was the year Wilberforce won against public opinions in Britain, and slavery was abolished. Did Wilberforce opiniate anything on Copenhagen?--82.134.28.194 (talk) 10:45, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

British bias
Coming from a Danish background, I think the above commenter has a point. The whole article, while well-written and concise, has the serious flaw that it only presents the British side of the story.

I'm not as much interested whether the battle was rightful or not, but I do think that too little emphasis is put on 1) an evaluation of the real threat of the Danish navy as opposed to what was perceived by the British government, 2) an account of the consequences for the people in Copenhagen and for the whole country as a seafaring nation, 3) how the operation was perceived by the Danes.

Until someone with non-British historical insight shows up, I think it might be a good idea to add something about the bias to the top of the article. Ole Laursen (talk) 10:48, 28 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It would obviously be good to have some input from Danish sources, however there is a difference between an article that needs more content and an article that is biased. The description of the attack as pre-emptive is correct - being pre-emptive doesn't imply that it was good or bad, simply that it was done in order to prevent something.  It also doesn't presume that the thing that was being pre-emptive would have happened.  Rather like the battle of Mers-el-Kebir the real question here is did the British government really think that the Danish fleet was a risk, or was this a pretense in order to attack Denmark?  We also need to be careful of judging the actions of the early 19th century against 21st century codes.  Although this was not the most shining example of military gallantry at the time, it was also nowhere near the worst - not even for the British army. Duncan (talk) 10:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * One crucial difference between Copenhagen and Operation Catapult is that in the latter, Britain's enemy was the Vichy Regime. The Vichy was a confirmed enemy to both Charles De Gaulle and Churchill in all but on paper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.28.194 (talk) 08:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I have to concur with the above.. This article reeks of British nationalistic naval mythology. To my knowledge large parts of British society were quite ashamed about this attack. But this holds true of both of the articles about the first and second battle of Copenhagen. I find them both it quite distasteful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.93.10.77 (talk) 12:37, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Facts: Hawkesbury 1808 should probably be 1807
It seems that Hawkesbury's considerations about Napoleon forcing Denmark to war must have been before the bombardement of Copenhagen. I have no sources to check, so I just leave this comment (and I will return). --d-axel (talk) 08:29, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * This seems wrong to me too. Ron B. Thomson (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Ships Involved - Picture of 1801 Battle?
Am I mistaken? The picture included in this section appears to show the First Battle of Copenhagen (1801), with the British fleet bombarding and Danish gun platforms responding. For this 1807 page it would be inappropriate.Viking1808 (talk) 17:44, 26 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I gather you are talking about the image with the name "Engelske flåde ud for København august 1807.jpg"? That is a painting depicting the 1807 battle, which incidentally was somewhat similar in its setup to the 1801 battle; the British fleet bombarding and Danish gun platforms responding (As a comparison check out this painting from the same battle, showing the action from a slightly different angle). --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:18, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah! Now I see my mistake. Sorry! I had not noticed the link from this picture to the title. I will read with interest the Danish account now you have put it in. Viking1808 (talk) 08:34, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

Ships Surrendered - and References
Help? - I have just put the following entry under References in the main article

Individual record cards in Danish for ships of the Danish Royal Navy can be found on the internet at Orlogmuseet Skibregister, arranged alphabetically. These records contain codes to secondary sources - usually books in Danish - which can be identified at another page on that site.

The entry contains links to Danish sources. I tried to place it as a note under Ships Surrendered but failed - my abilities in Wiki-editing are not yet mature. Is this sufficient to remove the flagged-up lack of references on this Ships Surrendered section? I could trawl through all the ships listed and put in references similar to that for Gluckstadt but I will leave that pending for now. Comments? Advice? Viking1808 (talk) 10:20, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Danish List of Surrendered Ships
Recently added (in the Reference section) of this article is a link to the Danish records of ships surrendered at the Battle of Copenhagen 1807. That linked website itself quotes two Danish language sources, one of which is dated 1808. The two lists are in broad agreement, especially in relation to the major units, with minor differences in spelling or number of guns. The Danish list gives dates of commissioning.
 * extant English version here (today 15 June 2011)
 * linked Danish version

Listed in the English version, but not in the Danish are against which we set the Danish comment “There appears to be som(e) uncertainty to the number of smaller ships/vessels seized by the British.”
 * Eijderen (18)
 * Brevdrageren (18)
 * The nine gunboats Faaborg, Holbek, Langesund, Kjerteminde, Nestved, Nykjobing, Nysted, Stubbekjobing, and Svenborg

Listed by the Danish reference, but not by the English version at today’s date 15 June 2011, are
 * Fredericksværn (36)
 * Bombarderbarkasse x 3 (Three bomb ships, each with a crew of 19 and a single 100-pound mortar set in - Danish reference)Viking1808 (talk)
 * Haien, (barge, 1802)
 * Kanonjolle Nr 1 and Nr 5 (Two smaller gunboats)
 * Kjæmpen (barge)
 * Vildanden (Royal Yacht)

also, the entry for Perlen (1804)-46 guns is duplicated in this Danish list.

Perhaps other editors with greater resources of references could take up the hunt for a definitive, or at least agreed, list. At present this article has a banner across it bemoaning the lack of sources – can this now be removed? Viking1808 (talk) 16:49, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
 * A partial answer to my own question

“Bad weather in the Kattegat wreaked havoc among the smaller Danish ships and most were either sunk by the storm or abandoned. The Danes were able to rescue six gunboats and two armed barges.” Munch-Petersen pp215-216

Individual ship records from the Danish Naval Museum identify Holbek (Holbæk), and Nestved among these as run aground, then recovered, in Norway. Stubbekjobing exploded and was destroyed, hit by a mortar grenade fired by British forces from the land, in Svannemølle Bay (immediately north of Copenhagen) on 22 August 1807 i.e. some two weeks before the capitulation, so she should not be listed here. Other Danish records show Nykjobing active at Ulfshalle under Lieutenant Skibsted in 1808, so she too was recovered, assuming she was taken in the first place. Eijderen (18), Langesund, Kjerteminde,  Svenborg are all recorded as ( udgået 1807 ) finished/left the service 1807, so could have been taken by the British and lost or kept! Of Faaborg (1807), she may have been built after the British left or have been captured and lost, then recovered by the Danes. She was (udgået and) broken up in 1814. Of Nysted, I can find no record. Brevdrageren (18) is recorded as taken by the British, but confusingly also recorded as having become HMS Manly! Comparison with the HMS Manly story implies some error here. Viking1808 (talk) 16:51, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Frederickscoarn
Regarding this edit, I think the contemporary English language source must have misspelled the name, because "coarn" does not make any sense in Danish (not even in 18th century Danish). It would be nice to have the name corrected to its original Danish name. --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:40, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I found it. The original Danish name was "Frederiksværn". this link (pages 27-28) provides a Danish source for the incident, although this source calls it a "corvette", not a frigate. --Saddhiyama (talk) 19:44, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The Danish Record card agrees this is Fredericksværn (1783) and is also recorded as such in Munch-Petersens book page 172. The London Gazette record has mis-spelt the name of the ship.Viking1808 (talk) 19:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I figured you would be the person to find a good source for this. Feel free to replace the one I added if you want. --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

And then the mis-spelt name was given to the captured ship as here and numerous other English references (Thank you, AR). The name makes no sense in either language! Viking1808 (talk) 14:02, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

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