Talk:Battle of Gela (1943)

Merger Proposal
This seems very bizarre - I've never heard of "the amphibious battle of Gela" in its own context - is it referred to as such in any of the source documents? I note the info boxes don't list strengths and units for just this "portion" of the invasion. Would probably be better off in an article dealing with "Allied landings in Sicily" or merged into the Battle of Sicily article.68.144.172.8 (talk) 00:04, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose Merger: I considered adding this information to the Invasion of Sicily article, but that article is already very large (68K) because it covers an entire campaign of 5 weeks. This article covers a single invasion sector, similar to the separate subsidiary articles for Utah Beach, Omaha Beach, Gold Beach, Juno Beach, and Sword Beach complimenting the Normandy landings article. This battle is defined by the three day period of Admiral Hewitt's control, and ended when General Patton assumed control by moving his headquarters ashore after his troops captured Ponte Olivo airfield so USAAF air support could replace naval artillery. The situation at Gela was relatively unique in comparison to the overall campaign described in the Invasion of Sicily article. Allied air cover was ineffective at preventing Axis air attacks, and the July 11th Axis counterattack forced the stevedore shore parties to stop offloading work and assume defensive positions.Thewellman (talk) 06:33, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Support Merger The article's creator has ducked the question of whether the source documents consulted refer to an "amphibious battle of Gela". The comparison to the Normandy landings seems false in that respect. The landing beaches had their own code names, and Operation NEPTUNE was clearly delineated from Operation OVERLORD. The five Normandy beaches have always been natural breaking points in the historical coverage, for which sources have been available for casualty listings (by day and beach), forces involved (by day and beach), etc. I don't see that information here, or in the source material, for a so-called "Battle of Gela".68.144.172.8 (talk) 13:07, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't intend to avoid the issue. I simply didn't recognize an unsatisfactory article name as justification for merger. I acknowledge an absence of focus on these events in many histories; because I gave some thought to an appropriate article name, but decided The Unreported Battle might be inappropriately sarcastic. I might not have spent so much time assembling published sources if my father hadn't been there watching events unfold as Commodore Edgar's staff intelligence officer aboard USS Barnett. When I asked him as a child why he had trouble hearing me, he told the story of watching the stick of five bombs walking toward his ship and, after seeing four bombs splash, the optical illusion of distance causing him to believe the last bomb would also miss. But his eardrums were ruptured by shipboard antiaircraft guns as he peered over the side attempting to observe whether listing the ship would bring the bomb hole above the waterline.


 * The reasons for historical neglect begin with the Royal Navy's disappointment. The Royal Navy had been trying to engage the Italian Navy for three years, and hoped the invasion would draw out the fleet for an encounter something like the later battle of Surigao Strait. As the invasion fleet assembled off the coast of Sicily, men aboard battleships HMS Nelson (28), HMS Rodney (29),HMS Warspite (03), and HMS Valiant (1914) waited with six light cruisers, 24 destroyers, and aircraft carriers HMS Formidable (67) and HMS Indomitable (92) for a fleet action they anticipated as the second world war equivalent of the battle of Jutland. Failure of the Italian fleet to accept their challenge was portrayed as cowardice. Potter and Nimitz United States Naval Academy history textbook Sea Power reported "...Italian defenders happily surrendering at every opportunity." Under those circumstances, it was difficult for General Patton or Admiral Hewitt to gain any glory by declaring they had repulsed two brave attacks by the Italian Livorno Division.


 * Sicily invasion beach code names Acid and Bark were given to the British and Canadian beachheads. American beachheads Cent, Dime, and Joss are more often identified by the included towns of Scoglitti, Gela, and Licata. None of those code names seem to elicit the the popular images of Normandy beachheads. Battle of Gela would have been my first choice, but that name describes circumstances still remembered as a battle 24 centuries later rather than forgotten within a few decades. I am pleased by User:Brandmeister's action to apply the name to this article, as well. Will that renaming allow us to remove the merger tag?Thewellman (talk) 17:26, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose Merger. There's much useful information here and it's a good article supported by a reasonable number of refs. Merging it into the Battle of Sicily or whatever would necessitate cutting out a lot of this info. I don't see how that's helpful. It'd be helpful if a lot of the info is unsupported and dubious, or trivial. Is it? It doesn't look to be. If the name is problem, rename to something like Fighting around Gela (1943) if desired -- that's more of just a description and doesn't imply that "Battle of Gela" is an accepted term in the historical record -- but I also think the current name is OK too. Since no one else has weighed in on this, I'm going to take the liberty of removing the merge tag. Any editor can restore it and continue the discussion if desired. Herostratus (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Frank Joseph
Joseph is a pen name of Frank Collin, a neo-Nazi author of pseudoscience. For more information, see Reliable_sources/Noticeboard. Parsecboy (talk) 17:39, 14 November 2017 (UTC)