Talk:Battle of Grodno (1706)

Untitled
There were never a battle in Grodno 1706. The swedish army waited north of Grodno, and the russians stayed inside Grodno. Finaly they decided to leave Grodno, hauling their artillery in the river and retreated. Then Charles tried to cross the river it was impossible beacuse of the ice breaking up, destroying the bridge the swedes were building. And thats all there were. /Rrohdin (talk) 17:34, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Russian losses
Which are the sources for the Swedish authors to present such numbers? 17,000 dead out of 23,000 is a catastrophe and a near-destruction of an army. However, such scale of defeat isn't described at any other source. On the contrary, the Russian retreat is being described as successful. --Shervinsky (talk) 22:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The sources are well-listed in the infobox. This is from Peter Ullgren: "the Russians managed to break out of Grodno almost unseen, however, Charles XII persecuted them on their retreat all the way to the town of Pinsk. By then the blockade of Grodno had cost the Russians almost 17,000 lives, the kings tactic with starvation and pursuit had succeded" Olle Larsson has about the same statement. Oskar Sjöström says in his book "Fraustadt 1706, ett fält färgat rött" - "The situation for the enclosed Russians in Grodno was terrible, Charles soldiers had quickly cut-off their food supplies and thousands of soldiers died of starvation. At last, the Russian general Ogilvie got orders to try to break out of Grodno to save at least something of his army" Judging by these books, everyone can at least agree with that the whole Grodno campaign was a disaster for the Russians. What does Russian sources say about numbers lost? The Russian breakout of Grodno was successful, but many weak Russians later died on the fast forced retreat when Charles was in pursuit. here's an English source speaking of the 8,000 dead in Grodno. Imonoz (talk) 07:13, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't ask what were the secondary sources (it's obvious), I asked what is given by the Swedish authors as their primary sources? I mean, these modern Swedish guys were not among the Russian army in 1706, right? They must have used sources from the Great Northern War - which ones? I doubt whether a Swedish source of that time is capable to count correctly how many Russians starved in the swamps during the retreat. The numbers of 17,000 dead of 23,000 are dubious and probably have propaganda origins. Psychological war was wide-spread at those times and had the function to demoralize the allies of the enemy. Please tell me the primary source which these numbers are based upon so we can evaluate their reliability.--Shervinsky (talk) 22:23, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The original sources are not mentioned. You could try google their emails and ask them personally, as this is not my concern. As most things around this time era this is most likely estimations, it's not very hard to figure out. Propaganda served its purpose for both sides, not only the Swedish, hence why I asked you for Russian numbers on casualties. "Evaluate their reliability"? I'm sorry, are you an historian, otherwise I don't think you're quite capable or least to say, reliable to do so. Imonoz (talk) 22:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

These figures obviously qualify as anti-Russian propaganda by the Swedes who are still angry at losing the war. Let's remove this nonsense. --Ghirla-трёп- 10:52, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would it be anti-Russian propaganda? These numbers are originally from Peter I himself claiming he lost 17,000 men in one single campaign in 1706, in a letter to his ally Frederick IV of Denmark. He's referring to Grodno and the retreat from there. So this is non made up numbers by any Swedish historian, this is actually Russian numbers. Imonoz (talk) 15:38, 19 November 2014 (UTC)