Talk:Battle of Helm's Deep/Archive 1

We all know that Middle-earth is a continent, but the name is also commonly used for Tolkien's universe. While he himself didn't use it, it is commonly recognizable - and "fictional character from the fictional continent..." doesn't sound right. If we used "Arda" or "Ea", many people might not get it. Ausir 07:23, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"During the War of the Ring Helm's Deep again became the refuge of the Rohirrim,"

This happened in the movie, but in the book it was just a refuge for a small part of the army of the Rohirrim. (And it wasn't really intended to be their refuge, either.) I'm thinking about how to state this more clearly. [[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 18:26, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Movie details
Much of this article describes the Helm's Deep of the movie, not of the books, from which it differs in a number of important respects. I'll correct this as soon as I have the time. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Portrayals
(Moved here; already covered in Battle of the Hornburg)

In Peter Jackson's version of The Two Towers, the Rohirrim sent 300 men with citizens of Edoras to seek refuge in Helm's Deep. Here all seemed hopeless, as Aragorn reported that he saw 10,000 Uruk-hai marching from Isengard to destroy the peoples of Rohan. To the luck of the Rohirrim, Elrond of Rivendell sent a small army of elves led by Haldir to aid the warriors.

The battle for the Hornburg started at nightfall. The Uruk-hai began their attack after an arrow was accidently fired by a Rohan soldier that killed an Uruk. The Uruk-hai began up putting ladders against the Deeping Wall and climbing up fight on top of the wall. Others were shooting down the elven archers with crossbows. Meanwhile, a group of Uruk-hai packed tightly together in a rectangle that covered the entire path that led to the main gate marched up the path protected by shields held above them and in front of them in order to knock down the main gate. Despite the shields, the Uruk-hai on the main path were vulnerable to the archers on the Deeping Wall, so the arrows were directed towards the Uruk-hai on the main path instead of those climbing up the Deeping Wall. Since the elven archers were now distracted, the Uruk-hai placed two explosives at the drain of the Deep, which is the only open part of the Deeping Wall. An Uruk-hai then ran at the explosives with a torch, intending to explode them and create a hole in the wall for the Uruk-hai to enter through. Aragorn recognized this and Legolas began firing arrows at the charging Uruk-hai. Although Legolas shot the Uruk-hai twice in the shoulder, he still was able to dive at the explosives and create a large hole in the Deeping Wall. The Uruk-hai then surged the Deep, and they were met by a small band of soldiers led by Aragorn. The rest of the Uruk-hai began firing harpoons to the top of the Deeping Wall and Uruk-hai began climbing up the ropes. Haldir was killed on top of the Deeping Wall at this point. Théoden calls for Aragorn to retreat and the Deep and the Deeping Wall are abandoned to the Uruk-hai, who now start raising ladders to climb up the Hornburg. The Rohirrim are barring the main gate to prevent the Uruk-hai from entering. Aragorn and Gimli go outside Helm's Deep for a short time to launch a sneak attack on the Uruk-hai on the bridge to the main gate. Despite their effort, the main gate is overrun and the Rohirrim are forced to their last defence, hiding inside the Great Hall. Once inside, Aragorn convinces Theoden to attack the Uruk-hai one last time. It is then realized that it is morning, which means Gandalf has returned with reinforcements. As the last few soldiers led a desperate attack on the Uruk-hai, Gandalf appears on top of a nearby hill with Éomer and many Rohirrim soldiers. With their combined efforts, the Uruk-hai were defeated. This marked the end of the Uruk-hai and the Rohirrim held a victory.

In the book by J. R. R. Tolkien, 1000 men from Rohan rode to Helm's Deep. The troop of men included Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Théoden, Éomer, Gamling, and more. No assistance from the elves came, but Gandalf was looking for reinforcements outside of the battle field. It is not clearly stated, but a battalion of both men of Dunland, a variety of orcs and goblins, and Saruman's Uruk-hai assaulted Helm's Deep. Rohan was able to drive off the force of attackers with skilled archers and horsemen until Gandalf arrived with the main force of Rohan.


 * Also, goblins and Uruk-hai are Orcs, and "Uruk-hai" is a plural term. Uthanc 19:34, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel better now that you got all that off your chest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.252.4.21 (talk) 04:29, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Helmsdeepoverview.jpg
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BetacommandBot 02:54, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

In Universe
Can we remove the "in universe" tag. The article is fairly careful to state that stuff is from a book. "the castle was described" vs "the castle is" or the "castle was" "in the appendices" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Feldercarb (talk • contribs) 19:19, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately we can't remove the tag. "In universe" includes also the fact that the entire article is based on the book plot whereas external third-party coverage is totally missing. We need something that provides a literary analysis or a section on Tolkien's motives and inspiration. See WP:PLOT. De728631 (talk) 18:55, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Notability
Helm's Deep is the location of important events that impact the entire storyline of The Lord of the Rings. I am unclear as to why this paged is flagged for notability. --Malecasta (talk) 01:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Resolved, the notability header was removed in September 2008. --Dbo789 (talk) 04:52, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a very in-universe comment.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:30, 28 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Well considering this article has had an "in universe" problem tag for almost 9 years, are you surprised it is too in-universe in the comments?John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:12, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Inaccurate info in very first paragraph?
Currently, it says this: "On the sides of the valley are relieving forces assembled by Gandalf and Erkenbrand"

But just before Gandalf appears, the narrator of LOTR describes: "Upon the east too sheer and stony was the valley's side; upon the left, from the west, their final doom approached."

Their final doom—Gandalf and Erkenbrand and the men they had brought—is identified as being ONLY on the west side of the valley.

Ed8r (talk) 13:52, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Single side it is. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:17, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Fictional Geography, footnote (3)
The end of the third paragraph (first paragraph after quote) says this: "Tolkien drew detailed sketches of the fortifications" and offers a superscript link to (3) below. But the secondary source listed at footnote 3 is The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion.. . . pictures 160 & 161 (p. 165)

However, "pictures 160 & 161 (p. 165)" refers to a different source, which is not listed on this page. I went to edit the footnote, but I do not know how to "disconnect" it from the one shown at (1). The actual source is J. R. R. Tolkien: Artist & Illustrator. Boston, Houghton Mifflin, 1995. (and I don't know where to locate a ISBN link). Ed8r (talk) 14:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm very grateful, I'm sure. The ISBN is 978-0395748169. You can look in any bookstore, or on the publisher's website, or use WorldCat. The two references were not connected in any way. Had they both pointed to the same citation (as with a Template:sfn ref), we'd have had to create a new one for this particular ref. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Helms deep is from a place in Denmark, called “hjelms dyb” right next to “hjelms dyb” lie “Isengård”
Tolkien did a lot of research in Denmark, Jutland. 176.20.221.46 (talk) 13:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Gondor sketch map.svg