Talk:Battle of Hudson's Bay

Scope
Shouldn't this article discuss the entire Anglo-French rivalry on Hudson Bay from 1686 to 1713? I think it should mention battles and seizures at Port Nelson, York Factory, Fort Churchill, Fort Albany, Moose Factory, and Fort Charles, and mention that on both fronts, French forces were led by Iberville and De Troyes. Kevlar67 (talk) 23:57, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Tag & Assess 2008

 * Ensured that the article is: within project scope, tagged for task forces, and assessed for class.


 * The article would benefit from: expansion, sections (Prelude, The battle, Aftermath), in-text citations. --Rosiestep (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Under-researched
This is quite a poorly researched article. Notably the HMS Hampshire went down so fast (not blew up) that no one of the company of some 250 escaped, leaving all present in shock. An archaeological expedition is there now seeking its remains which should be well preserved 220.238.42.127 (talk) 13:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is a bit more if someone wants to edit this into the article's body

Pierre Le Moyne, Sieur d'Iberville 1696 squadron of four ships and a brigantine

CHAPTER VII BATTLE OF HUDSON BAY AND THE RECAPTURE OF FORT NELSON THE ships were fitted out, the men recalled from various parts of the coast, and when the preparations were finished the squadron sailed, July 8, 1697, for Hudson Bay. Iberville commanded the Pelican, fifty guns and one hundred and fifty men, Serigny the Profond, and Boisbriant the Wasp. Two other ships, the Palmier and the Esquimaux, completed the fleet, the latter being a supply ship. Besides Serigny, Iberville had with him also his younger brother, Jean Baptiste de Bienville,* the second of that surname, who was now a midshipman sixteen years old and eager to assume his part in sustaining and contributing to the family distinction. The harsh hand of pioneer life brings an early maturity, and, trained and hardened by the Newfoundland campaign, he now makes formal appearance in those foreign enterprises from which afterward in Louisiana he was to acquire such renown. La Potherie and Jeremie, who accompanied the expedition, were the two historians by whom it was afterward chronicled. In sixteen days the fleet was breaking the ice and dodging the icebergs of Hudson Straits. Unless the ships kept close together they were lost from sight in the multitude of ice mountains. The Pelican was in the lead, and the giant bergs as far as the eye could see moved and mingled like clouds, advanced in line, in clusters, and in platoons. At times two giants three hundred feet high would crash together with a noise like thunder. Again the wind would overturn one of these top-heavy floating mountains and then woe to the ship near by! In one such phenomenon a mizzenmast was carried away from one ship, and another, the Esquimaux, was lost with her valuable cargo. The crew alone was saved with great difficulty. The sky was generally covered with hard white clouds, from which, even in the clearest weather, it was never entirely free, but they always knew when they were approaching the ice, long before they saw it, by a bright appearance on the horizon called by the Greenlanders " the blink of the ice." The navigation, extra hazardous at all times, reached its maximum in the furious storms that frequently occur in those Straits. On July 24 the squadron ran into one that lasted for nine hours, and when the wind died down the Pelican was covered with ice from peak to waterline, the ropes and sails immovable, and the watchman on his high station was stiff and white like a monument. Worse than all, the other ships of the fleet had disappeared. With considerable anxiety Iberville grappled the ice and waited many days for the consorts. The crew spent the time in hunting and fishing and trading with the Esquimaux. At length, thinking the other ships must have passed and would be awaiting him, the Commander gave up hope and sailed, arriving on September 6 before Fort Nelson; but he found no trace of his fleet [They sailed from Placentia early in July, followed by two other ships of the squadron, and a vessel carrying stores. Before the end of the month they entered the bay, where they were soon caught among masses of floating ice. The store-ship was crushed and lost, and the rest were in extreme danger. The “Pelican” at last extricated herself, and sailed into the open sea; but her three consorts were nowhere to be seen. Iberville steered for Fort Nelson, which was several hundred miles distant, on the western shore of this dismal inland sea. He had nearly reached it, when three sail hove in sight; and he did not doubt that they were his missing ships. They proved, however, to be English armed merchantmen: the “Hampshire” of fifty-two guns, and the “Daring” and the “Hudson's Bay” of thirty-six and thirty-two. The “Pelican” carried but forty-four, and she was alone.] Two days later three vessels were sighted in the offing which seemed to be the rest of the squadron. Amid universal joy the flags of welcome were hoisted, but the ships gave no response and came on under full sail in deadly silence. This strange behavior, though soon explained, caused much perplexity. They were three English ships, and they had met the Profond in the Straits and, as Iberville afterward learned from prisoners, [Du Guay at once headed for the ice, preferring to loose the Profond rather than surrender, for she carried on board all the munitions and supplies for the expedition. The English gave chase. Serigny and Chartier with the 'Palmier' and 'Wesp' crowded on all sail in a vain attempt to come to the rescue, but the intervening ice barrier held them off.] two of them, the Hudson Bay (HBC Royal Hudson’s Bay (200t) (Capt. Nicholas Smithsend)) 30 guns [-> 32], and the Dering [III] (260t) (HBC Dering Capt. Michael Grimington) [20 guns -> 36], attacked her as she lay fastened in the ice. [The fireship HMS Owner’s Love (217t) (Capt. Lloyd) which also joined the expedition was crushed by ice] For six hours the cannonading was continued [The following day, it was August 26th, Du Guay opened fire on the Dering and Hudson's Bay at nine in the morning. The Profond fought under a severe disadvantage, for owing to her position she could bring only two guns to bear on the enemy, and no maneuvering was possible while the ice held her in its grip. All day long the ships battered away at each other, the Hampshire coming up in the evening to take part. Little was accomplished, however, by either side; it was a drawn battle; all eventually recovered from their wounds and in due time arrived at Port Nelson.], but when the ice broke up the Profond sailed off, though the English were convinced she could not float long. [The English Fleet then continue towards Fort York and encountered the french flagship 'The Pelican' on the 4th September. In 1697 he commanded the same ship on the outward voyage in company with HMS Hampshire (Capt. John Fletcher), the HBC’s Dering, and a fireship. The flotilla was intercepted off Port Nelson by d’Iberville in Le Pélican and after the Hampshire was sunk, Smithsend surrendered his ship without a fight on 5 Sept. 1697 (n.s.) according to La Potherie [Le Roy]. (Smithsend’s account no longer exists.) A prize crew was put on board, but a bad storm wrecked the ship in Hayes River (called by the French Sainte-Thérèse), enabling Smithsend and some of his crew to slip their captivity and make their way to York Fort where Smithsend encouraged the defenders to resist. The fort was subsequently surrendered by Governor Henry Baley on 13 Sept. 1697 (o.s.).] The English fleet was made up of the Hampshire (H.M. frigate Hampshire (479 tons) Captain John Fletcher, RN) fifty-two [-> 56] guns and one hundred and fifty men, the Dering, thirty guns and one hundred men, and the Hudson's Bay, an armed merchantman of thirty-two guns, in all one hundred and fourteen guns and about three hundred and fifty men, to oppose which the Pelican had her fifty guns and one hundred and fifty men. Iberville was thus caught between the fort and the English fleet, but his stout heart never failed. With full appreciation of his danger he made no effort to evade the issue. He says, " Seeing they were English, I prepared to fight them." His ship had been under way to meet his friends, and she continued on her course to meet the enemy. The batteries were manned high and low, his young brother De Bienville having a responsible post on the more exposed and dangerous upper tier. La Potherie, St. Martin, and the most experienced men were placed on the forward deck, while Iberville took his station near the pilot to direct all. He recognized at once that this would be a fight to the death, that he or the English must yield, and he was determined that it should not be he. Since the enemy was numerically stronger in ships, guns, and men, he resolved to board at the first opportunity rather than fight the fleet as the centre of a circle of fire. As he directed his ship toward the Hampshire, his well-known blonde hair and martial figure enabled the English to recognize him, and they cried triumphantly, " You shall not escape us this time." The cries and hurrahs were then redoubled. It was a dramatic moment. The excitement became intense. Iberville advanced steadily, his face calm except for his sparkling eyes that flashed encouragement to his watchful crew. As soon as the Hampshire got the range, she delivered her broadside; but the guns were discharged as the ship rose with the wave so that most of the balls flew high and injured the rigging, but some struck the hull and the pumps were manned. " Prepare to board" signalled Iberville, and the men of the Pelican crouched low behind the bulwarks, each jealously calculating his chance to be the first on the enemy's ship. As the vessels rapidly approached each other, the captain of the Hampshire took alarm at the situation, and fearing he would be overcome in single contest, swung his sails and avoided the encounter. Iberville lost not an instant, but directed his ship between the other two hostile vessels. In passing he delivered a thundering broadside at the Dering with his starboard battery and sent his port broadside into the Hudson's Bay. Then he followed after the Hampshire, which, seeing him engaged with her consorts, had returned to the fray. The Dering and the Hudson's Bay were badly crippled, the rigging cut, the sails full of holes, the cannon overturned, and the wounded numerous. Meanwhile Iberville, seeing his fate accomplished if the three got together, drove straight down on the Hampshire. The English fleet in battle line was now firing broadside after broadside. The Pelican was badly crippled, but none of her company so far had been injured. The Hampshire, seeing the futility of the cannonfire, at length decided to board, but reserved her broadside for close range. With rare skill Iberville had at all times kept the weather gauge, and the Hampshire, failing to get to the windward, now returned full speed upon the Pelican, which was imitating every manoeuvre. The vessels finally came side to side. The crisis had come. When they were within pistol shot of each other and rapidly drifting closer, the Hampshire fired her broadside, which again went high. The ships now swung together, yard arm to yard arm, before Iberville replied. He aimed his guns low to hull his antagonist, and so successfully that the vessel sailed only a few fathoms and then went down with all on board, her sails still spread and her flags fluttering in the wind. This disaster was as swift and unexpected as its effect upon the English was decisive. Stunned by the grewsome tragedy, they thought no more of resistance, and for some minutes the other ships lurched about on the weltering sea in apparent stupefaction. The Dering, recovering herself first, fired a broadside and fled, but the Hudson's Bay, being too badly crippled to flee, hauled down her flag. An officer and twenty-five men took possession. The battle had continued for three and one-half hours. It had been conclusive, and on board the Pelican there was but one dead and only seventeen wounded. The ship, however, was so badly cut up that the pursuit of the Dering failed. New perils now threatened the ship. Although it was early in September, the cold was intense, and during the battle clouds had gathered thickly; a great storm arose which soon became a terrific blizzard. The ship encased in snow and ice staggered heavily before the gale. The desolation among the sick and wounded was fearful. Wilder and wilder raged the tempest, and about seven o'clock the rudder was swept away. To avoid being driven ashore the anchor was dropped, but the cable parted like thread. Then the ship was hurled against a sand bar, where, battered by the great seas she could not resist, her seams opened, and by morning she began to sink. The shore could be seen a few miles away, and Iberville, composed and resourceful, determined to abandon the vessel. Since most of the boats had been shot away, he made rafts of the spare and wrecked masts, and putting the wounded on board they were paddled and pushed to shore by the others, partly swimming and partly wading. The cold was so extreme that of the two hundred who made the passage to shore, eighteen perished from exposure. For twelve hours they had battled with the English and the elements without pause for food or desire to eat. Their exhaustion was complete. Some who reached shore barely alive had to be dragged by their stronger companions into Buch shelter as could be had. Great fires were built and, though lightly clad, the men were much relieved. Food, however, was lacking, but with wise forethought Iberville had saved his powder and now sent out the best hunters for game. The ground was covered deep with snow and the men were not successful. The landing had been made about two leagues from the fort, and this spot affording apparently a brief respite from death was named Camp de Grace. Being unable to guard the prisoners, seventeen of those taken on the Hudson's Bay escaped to the fort, and the French constantly expected the warm and well-fed English would descend upon them in the midst of their other misfortunes and utterly destroy them. As their sufferings became more acute, it was determined to risk all in one last assault upon the fort rather than perish in the snow and ice. The camp was moved across an intervening marsh to a point about half a league from the post. This marsh, says La Potherie, was so difficult that "horses could not drag themselves through it." In this emergency Iberville's star shone forth brightly, and the rest of the squadron now appeared bringing food, clothing, and munitions of war. Amid general rejoicing the camp was again moved up to within cannon-shot of the fort and named Camp Bourbon. The men were landed from the ships and a summons sent to the English. With full knowledge of the desperate condition of the French, the garrison cherished the hope that Iberville especially had perished. So when his messenger was led into the fort with bandaged eyes to bring the summons, one of the Governor's staff counselled delay, at any rate until it could be learned definitely whether the Commander had been lost. Upon this advice the Governor refused to capitulate. The batteries were then erected about two hundred yards from the fort, mortars and bombs were brought up, and the bombardment began. As the ramparts were broken down by the shells, the Canadians gave the shrill " Sassa Koues " of the Iroquois and dashed forward until repulsed by the English musketry. Fort Nelson, manned and ruled by servants of the Company, was a palisaded fort and furnished but slight protection against cannon. A new battery was begun on the undefended northern side, and the French were hacking at the palisades in true Indian fashion when a flag of truce appeared. Bailey, more courageous or better supported than Sargeant at Albany, had been summoned three times, but he did not surrender until he got honorable terms. The garrison then capitulated and was permitted to march out with honors of war.

Iberville commanded the Pelican (Le Pélican, 50 [44] canons, captain Pierre Le Moyne d’Iberville), 3rd rate man-of-war fifty guns and one hundred and fifty men, Serigny the Profond (frigate/‘storeship’) (Le Profond (460t), flûte de 32 canons [+2 from Le Pélican], commanded by Pierre Du Gué, Sieur de Boisbriand.), Boisbriant the Wasp (frigate) (Le Vesp/Weesph, Capt. Chatrie (chevalier de Chastrier). {my guess a vessel of about 300t with about 20-26 guns} the Palmier (frigate) (Le Palmier 5th rate man-of-war, 300t, captain Joseph Le Moyne de Serigny) {my guess a vessel of about 20-26 guns} the “Violent” [L'Esquimau/Esquimaux] "the Eskimo", a supply ship (brigantine). (Jean Outelas, Capt.) {my guess 150 ton ship, capable of carrying from 10-12 guns; one report says it too was crushed by the ice pack either during or immediately after the battle}

Saileing Orders & Instructions to Capt Nico: Smithsend

1st. [??] sail wth Consorts [??] North about - You are upon Receipt hereof to Saile in Compa: wth: his Maties: Ship the Hampshire Capt: Fletcher Comander & the Owners Love fire Ship togeather wth the Dering Frigtt: Capt: Grimington the first opertunity of wind & weather Either north about or through the Channell as you shall receive orders from the Comadore for Hayes River in Hudsons Bay where being arrived & find noe French Ships have bin there this yeare then you are to Continue there till the 15th of September 1697 or till the Man of Warr arrive wth: you wch: shall first happen & noe longer, the time you Stay there wee require you to be Assistant to Govr: Baley in wch: you can wth: your Men or otherwise.

2d. If bad winds to Hayes River sail to AlbanyBut in case you meete wth Contrary Winds when you get wth:in theBay & find there is noe hopes of gaineing yor: Passage to Haye's River by the 15th of August, you are then to make the best of your way wth: all the Ships in your Compa: first for Albany River-wheare you are to assist Capt: Grimington in unladeing such goods & stores he hath to put on Shoaare & receive such goods as the Govr: of that place hath to ship for England wee doe Expect yor: Dilligence in Dispatching our Businness in that place, the Comadore haveing orders to Stay noe longer then you can dispatch what you have to doe.

3. Sail to Hayes River - Soe soone as you have dispatched at Albany Fort you are to make the Best of your way wth the rest of our Ships in your Company for Hayes Rivr: & when you arrive there you are to make all the dispatch you can in puting a shore wt goods & stores you have aBoard for that place, & receive such goods on Board as the Governr hath to ship for England.

4. [??] French Ships - If you should happen to meete wth any French Ship or Vessells belongg: to the French King or his Subjects in yor: Voyage out or home or at Hay's River or any other Rivrs: or Creeke not mentioned in these Instructions, you are to use yor: utmost Endeavour to take Burne or destroy them, & if you Succeed in any attempt the Comadore hath orders to let you Saile a lone for Albany River where wee hope you will make such dispatch that you may arrive at YorkeFort by the 15th Sept: 1697 the Comadore haveing orders to Stay noe Longer there then that day.

5. If Miss Consorts to come home North about If the Men of Warr dont Joyne you before you Saile from Hays River nor you them before you gitt out of the Streights in such Case if you be a single Ship you are hereby ordered to Come homeNorth about & not through the Channell.

6. If French at any of the [Factorys?] endeavour to recover them If you find Either Albany Fort or Yorke Fort in the Possesion of the French you are to use yor: utmost Endeavr: to recover them or Either of them, In such case you & Capt: Grimington are to appoint a Govr: for the Compy: if Mr. Knight or Mr Balay be not wth you, the Comadore haveing orders accordingly

7. [Business?] forwhat you [?] Men of Warr If you Spare the Men of Warr any thing whatsoever you are to take receipts for the same

8. Prayers to be used Wee doe above all things Enjoyne you that the Publick Service of Almighty God be duly performed on Board your Ship

9. Provisions in Country You haveing six months provision on Board wee Expect you will be soe good a Husband that you may Spare Same in the Country for which take Receipts

10. Correspondence with Men of Warr Wee doe hereby order you to keepe a good Corespondency wth: the Capt: of the Men of Warr

11. deliver Journal Upon your arriveall in England you are to deliver in your Journall of your Voyage & all things Belonging thereto.

12. Send Letters - If you are forced into any Port homeward bound in England Scotland or Ireland or upon yor: arriveall in the Downes Send us a letter [?] thePost wth: advice & a short accott: of your Cargoe & the Success of yor: Voyage

13. [?] Goods [?] Wee require you to keepe a weekly accott: of the Expence of all Provisions on Board your Ship dureing the Voyage & a Monthly accott: of all Stores

14. Passengers to have same allowance as Ships Compa: Wee doe order that all our Passengers have the same allowance of Provisions as your Ships Compa: have, & that they take their Watch as they doe

15. [??] permited wear the Kings Collours You are not to Weare the Kings Coullers till the Comadore order you or you have Permition from him

The following is an eyewitness account by Claude Charles Le Roy de la Potherie who was the Commisary for the French Fleet which set out, from La Rochelle in France, on the 8th April 1697 to Hudson's Bay.

Account of Claude Charles Le Roy de la Potherie On September 3, 1697, we arrived within sight of Fort Nelson (or Bourbon), from which the English fired some cannon-shots, which were apprarently signals for the ships they were expecting from England. We anchored three leagues and a half to the south-west one quarter est of this fort, in the open sea, which had a bottom of muddy sand. We were surprised not to find there the Palmier, the Weesph, and the Profond, which naturally ought to have arrived before us, as they had been off the cape while we were still detained in the ice. At day-break on the 5th, we perceived three vessels to leeward that we took to be ours. After weighing anchor about seven in the morning, we sailed down on them and made signals to which they made no response. This made us think they were English, and so they were, being the Hampshire of fifty-six guns and two hundred and fifty men, the Dering of thirty-six guns, and the Hudson's Bay of thirty-two. The combat was not at all an equal one. Nevertheless, we made the English recognize in the sequel that the King's arms could be immortalizied with as much honour and glory in the seas of ice as in the other remotest parts of the earth. As it is prudent to be always on guard against being the victim of one's enemies, we were quite ready to receive their attack. Our strength was but mediocre, for a launch with twenty-two meny, under Martigny and Villeneuve, the ship's ensign, had gone ashore to get news from the Indians as to the arrival of the English in their fort, and as to the number of the garrison. We had forty men sick of scurvy who could do nothing, and twenty-seven sailors had been transferred to the Profund when we were leaving Placentia, not to mention those who had died on the voyage, so that we had only one hundred and fity with combatants out of the two hundred and fifty with which we had left Fracne, and forty-four mounted guns, having given two others to the Profond. Every man was at his post. La Salle, the ship's ensign, and Grandville, a marine guard, commanded the lower battery; Bienville, the brother of M. d'Iberville and the Chevalier de Ligondez, a marine guard, the upper battery. M. d'Iberville asked me to take command of the forecastle and, with a detachment of Canadians that he gave me, to meet the enemy as they tried to come on board. The enemey drew up in line. The Hampshire was at the head, the Dering followed, and the Hudson's Bay came behind, all three close together. The fight began at half past nine in the morning. We made straight for the Hampshire,which, thinking we were going to board her, let fall her mainsail and shook out her topsails. After this refusal, we went to the Dering and cut the tackle of her mainsail, and the Hudson's Bay coming in front, we sent her the rest of our broadside. The Hampshire, putting about to windward, fired a volley of musketry on our forecastle and sent a broadside of grape of which two shots went into the waster, another struck our bowsprit, cut the arms and the halliards of our foretopsail, a back stay of our top gallant mast, and our mizzen stay. The fight grew stubborn, the three vessels keeping up a continual fire on us, with the object of dismasting our ship. They destroyed a great deal of our rigging, the recital of which would be tedious. The Hampshire, seeing that she could not engage us between a shoal and their own two vessels, and that all the efforts they had made during two hours and a half were useless, determined to run us down, and, for that purpose, tried to get windward of us (which she was unable to do), but we ran alongside of her, yard-arm to yard-arm. As we were so close to each other, I ordered a volley of musketry to be fired at her forecastle, where there were many sailors who called out for us to leap aboard. They immediately returned our volley with a discharge of grape which cut nearly all our rigging in pieces and wounded many of our men. As they ran along by our ship, we fired our batteries which were so well aimed that they proved most effective, for we were no sooner separated from one another than the Hampshire immediately foundered under sail. The Dering, which was close to us, sent us her broadside, but the encounter was a cruel catastrophe for the English, because the Hudson's Bay lowered her flag and the Dering took to flight. We had fourteen men wounded by two discharges of shot from the last broadside of the Hampshire, which fell in the lower battery, among them the Chevalier de Ligondez, who showed all the courage and resolution that could be desired. The other officers also did their duty perfectly. Our prize, the Hudson's Bay, which was a league distant, might have got away into the mouth of the river Penechiouetchiou, of Ste. Thérèse, on which Fort Nelson is situated. We put about, and, after having put a prize crew on board, we went towards the Hampshire in order to save her sailors… We found that she had stranded on a shoal where the enemy had wished to engage us, and the weather became so rough after the battle that ti was impossible for us to lower a boat… We anchored close by the Hampshire with the chagrin of being unable to aid her in so dangerous and unfortunate a situation. Neither could the Hudson's Bay. The latter had a cargo for the trading post at Fort Nelson, which would have been worth 50,000 crowns in beaver skins. On the 6th, we sent a mortar and bombs on board the Hudson's Bay in the hope of forcing her to go up the river Ste. Therese. Both the Pelican and the Hudson's Bay were then wrecked by a violent storm that arose that evening. They were probably driven up the Hayes river by the tide and wrecked quite near to Fort York. Nicholas and some of the crew of the Hudson's Bay were able to get to Fort York and they then helped with the defence of the Factory - as the following accounts show. The garrison had been strengthened by some sailors who had got ashore from the Hudson's Bay and its morale had been strengthened by the authority of Captain Smithsend especially as he was convinced that Iberville himself had been killed in the naval action. 220.238.42.127 (talk) 03:15, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

1697 or 1696?
This is probably a ridiculous question, but I was going through the text of the Treaty of Ryswick (1697, Sep 20) and Article VIII refers to Hudson Bay and a capitulation of the English fort to French forces on September 5, 1696 (not 1697). Admittedly it does not explicitly say York factory, but it seems like it is. It is not a misprint - it is repeated in other copies (e.g. ) nor a calendar quirk. There wouldn't have been time to communicate the info to Ryswick if it was in 1697. Nor does it seem like a later addition to the treaty. How certain is the September 5, 1697 date for this battle? Or are these two entirely different events which coincide on same date (Sep 5)? Walrasiad (talk) 15:29, 2 August 2020 (UTC)