Talk:Battle of Karbala/Archive 2

Clarification

 * On the first sentence of the third paragraph in the "political background" section which reads "Later, Husayn ibn Ali did not accept ... ."; Does it mean that Muawiyah asked Husayn ibn Ali to be Caliph after Yazid or ... ? -- M h hossein   talk 06:41, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * No I don't think so. It means he opposed to Yazid's succession.-- Seyyed(t-c) 18:43, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * What Sa.vaikilian says. "Did not accept" is used here in the sense of "did not tolerate"/"did not agree with". --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:09, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you HyperGaruda & Seyyed. -- M h hossein   talk 05:32, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Rewritten
I have merged and condensed all the repeated information into one chronologically ordered chain of unique events. If there are things missing, add them to the correct place within the timeline. --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:45, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I had to revert your edits, as they seem a high jump which should in fact occur step by step. -- M h hossein   talk 13:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Sigh... Step-by-step is difficult, if not impossible, when multiple paragraphs and sections are involved. --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:28, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Poll
Who is in favour of working from the old, repetitious version and who would like to start fresh from the new, condensed version? You can compare them in this diff: --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:28, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * New, because it is much more ordered and makes it easier to add things at the correct place, if necessary. --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:28, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * New It is written much better and more clearly. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:32, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * New with detailsI agree with that we should rewrite the article so that the redundant information is removed. On the other hand, I agree with  that there should be some related details which let reader understand the situation better. As you remember, we had good cooperation in the lead of Ali's article. Therefor, I hope to reach agreement here, as well.-- Seyyed(t-c) 03:20, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * New This seems like a slam dunk. The new one is an improvement and doesn't appear controversial; it seems fair to consider that the new consensus and then work on any future additions/changes based on that. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:28, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * We need more details As I said above, we have to discuss the collection of apparently similar sentences first. -- M h hossein   talk 05:41, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that polling is not a substitute for discussion. -- M h hossein   talk 05:59, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that, apart from you, there is general consensus that it is easier to add your beloved details to the more coherent new version than to the old one. Don't you agree that it is easier to add new furniture to a room when it is cleaned up rather than when it is a mess? --HyperGaruda (talk) 07:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Those "beloved details" are actually added per their weight and are meant to avoid escaping some deterministic historical facts. Anyway, I prefer to move step by step. As I said, I found some of the sentences repetitious, too. So, I'll act based on the list and will merge dispersed points. -- M h hossein   talk 12:56, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You know, we have a special user warning discouraging incremental editing template:uw-preview, because all those mini edits clog up Special:RecentChanges and the page history. --HyperGaruda (talk) 14:29, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reminding. I'll stay somewhere between mini and mass edits. -- M h hossein   talk 19:18, 28 September 2016 (UTC)


 * New, ensuring that no info is lost although the article should be clear but we should ensure that in process of cleanup we don't loose any infromation. New version can be developed in draft space and reviewed, once agreed it can be moved to mainspace-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 14:44, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I suggest both of you write your proposals, then we can discuss about them.-- Seyyed(t-c) 15:00, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, my proposal (the "new, condensed version") can be found in the page history: Special:Permalink/741324710. --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * The new format is suitable I think. Lots of repetitious info is removed and the chronological order is respected. -- M h hossein   talk 04:52, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * HyperGaruda: Any point on this? -- M h hossein   talk 04:54, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

I merged two suggestions. Please write about your ideas: "" ''Background:During Ali's Caliphate, the Muslim world became divided and war broke out between Ali and Muawiyah I. When Ali was assassinated by Ibn Muljam (a Kharijite) in 661, his eldest son, Hasan, succeeded him but soon signed a peace treaty with Muawiyah to avoid further bloodshed. In the treaty, Hasan was to hand over power to Muawiya on the condition that he be just to the people and keep them safe and secure and that he would not establish a dynasty. This brought to an end the era of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. Hasan and Husayn then moved to Medina. Husayn ibn Ali became head of Banu Hashim after his older brother, Hasan, was poisoned to death in 670 (50 AH). His father's supporters in Kufah gave their allegiance to him, but he told them he was still bound by the peace treaty between Hasan and Muawiyah I as long as Muawiyah was alive.

Contrary to the treaty and the election via a shura, Mu'awiyah appointed his son Yazid I as successor in 56 AH, which transformed the government from a "consultative" from to a monarchy. While Mu'awiyah could get most people to pledge their allegiance, Husayn, Abdullah ibn al-Zubayr, Abdullah ibn Umar and a few other prominent figures refused to acknowledge Yazid as heir to the throne. The legitimacy of Yazid's succession as well as his "worthiness" for this position was questioned by them. Husayn considered the Umayyads an oppressive and religiously misguided regime. He insisted on his legitimacy based on his own special position as a direct descendant of Muhammad and his legitimate legatees. As a consequence, the situation turned into a political crisis after Mu'awiyah's death which led to a civil war (known as Second Fitna).''

The information about what happened after Yazid's succession will move to the next section:Prelude/Events before the battle-- Seyyed(t-c) 10:47, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but I think the current one is already a merger of the two suggestions and is accepted. No new form is required. -- M h hossein   talk 13:13, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * OK. So, please neglect my suggestion.-- Seyyed(t-c) 13:48, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Seyyed: Sorry I forgot to thank your valuable effort. -- M h hossein   talk 18:19, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Consistent naming
Various forms of Husyan's name is used throughout the article; "Hussein", "Hussayn", and "hossein". We'd better use a consistent form. Which one fits better? -- M h hossein   talk 18:21, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Husayn. We use that for his own article, and it complies with WP:MOSAR. --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:43, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Husayn. It is used for his own article as stated above, and any discussion to use another variant should take place there. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 11:15, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Husayn. I don't think there's any difference in reasoning or opinion here. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:20, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think that there was ever any difference in reasoning or opinion. I think they were probably just accidentally used by editors who are used to other spelling variants. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:12, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hussain. In Pakistan (even in India) this style is applied and I think it is equivalent to "Husayn". However, Hussein or Hossein is Persian style spelling per their pronunciation. Nannadeem (talk) 19:14, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * While those are more commons for people in everyday life, that is due to the large population of those countries. The majority of literature concerning this figure comes from other countries, and I don't think it's right to use a spelling variant that is more common generally for a specific case where it isn't. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:45, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * My comments were just for info. People from different linguistic branches apply their phonetic pattern, that is why we find slightly difference in spelling. I do not hesitate to accept any positive change, however, as pointed above his own article should be given preference. Nannadeem (talk) 05:56, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * And his own article has to be titled based on Article titles. -- M h hossein   talk 06:06, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Muawiyah's breaking the treaty
As it appears, "Muawiyah's breaking the treaty" is mentioned by some sources. Also, note that we don't base our edits merely on the Tabari history. I'll try to find enough sources. -- M h hossein   talk 17:45, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The anti-Umayyad POV is that there was such a clause in the treaty. However Tabari does not mention it, even though sources he used mentioned it.  Wikipedia should therefore not make the claim that the supposed clause is a historical fact.--  Toddy1 (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * We'll see what's right, after checking the sources. Btw, Muawiyah assigned his son as his successor while he could not do that, based on the treaty. -- M h hossein   talk 18:04, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I found two reliable sources verifying Muawiyah's violating the peace agreement. " Jointly with the sons of several other prominent Companions of Moḥammad, Ḥosayn resisted Moʿāwia’s demands that they pledge allegiance to his son Yazid, whom he had appointed as his successor in breach of both his treaty with Ḥasan and ʿOmar’s principle of election by the consultation (šurā), and "In his own speech Moʿāwia disowned all his previous stipulations and promises to Ḥasan and others, which were made merely in order to extinguish the fire of rebellion and to cut short the war. I restored the section and will add the materials from both of the above sources. -- M h hossein   talk 12:20, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this justifies such a POVvy section title (I'd rather go for "Succession to Muawiyah") or even a separate section title in the first place. --HyperGaruda (talk) 13:08, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * What kind of POV do you mean? Was this subject not an important part of the political background for battle of Karbala? -- M h hossein   talk 17:44, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Out of all the headings you could have chosen, you picked one with a negative tone, because let's face it, breaking a treaty is never a positive thing to do. Adding such a subheading where it is unnecessary, looks like an attempt at introducing even more negativity about Mu'awiyah. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:01, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * But the sources say he did break the treaty, I mean he did the negative thing. I have no problem with having a broader discussion over having this subheading or not. -- M h hossein   talk 04:32, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Already found another source verifying the breaking of the treaty by Mu'awiyah. "But Mu'awiya broke his promise by appointing his son Yazid to succeed him, and convinced Ja'da, Hasan’s wife, to poison the imam." -- M h hossein   talk 04:47, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh I don't doubt that Mu'awiyah broke the treaty, but I disagree that it should be highlighted by putting it in a heading, phrased like that. Even if what he did was wrong, that does not mean that Wikipedia should throw away WP:NPOV when there are alternatives. Again, a subheading in addition to "Political background" is unnecessary. --HyperGaruda (talk) 07:02, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your civil response HyperGaruda. While I can't understand why you insist on calling this subheading a WP:POV (and I would be thankful if you could say why you call it POV, based on the policies and guidelines), I think we'd better gather more views towards this issue. -- M h hossein   talk 10:38, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

WP:IMPARTIAL is the specific part of WP:NPOV (in the sense of "neutrality") about which I am talking. Emphasising the breaking of an agreement is like saying "ooh, look how bad this guy is". That is not neutral. --HyperGaruda (talk) 12:11, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I still see no problem with the tone, as we are not engaging the dispute. We did not describe something as bad or good, rather we referred to a historical fact. However, I know that a consensus should be built over having such a subheading before doing anything. Pinging for gathering more views. --  M h hossein   talk 12:46, 18 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Wilferd Madelung has clearly mentioned the issue. He says: In his own speech Moʿāwia disowned all his previous stipulations and promises to Ḥasan and others, which were made merely in order to extinguish the fire of rebellion and to cut short the war. His aim had been to seek revenge for the blood of ʿOṯmān, and anyone failing to pledge allegiance within three days would not be pardoned. and Jointly with the sons of several other prominent Companions of Moḥammad, Ḥosayn resisted Moʿāwia’s demands that they pledge allegiance to his son Yazid, whom he had appointed as his successor in breach of both his treaty with Ḥasan and ʿOmar’s principle of election by the consultation (šurā).-- Seyyed(t-c) 03:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Seyyed: As you see above, I've already mentioned these quotes and HyperGaruda said that he did not doubt that Mu'awiyah broke the treaty. His objection is against having a subheading entitled "Muawiyah's brekaing the treaty", since he belives that this title is "POVy". What do you think? -- M h hossein   talk 05:15, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I prefer a title like this: "the crisis of Yazid succession to Mu'awiyah" -- Seyyed(t-c) 07:07, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Let's see what HyperGaruda thinks! -- M h hossein   talk 07:30, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I prefer no title at all, simply because it is not needed. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:12, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, you're ignoring a decisive milestone with a significant impact on the later events. -- M h hossein   talk 11:10, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Responding to the ping. Am I to understand that the discussion here is regarding the choices of a) no title, b) title X, c) title Y, etc.? I'm just coming in to this discussion late and I want to be sure that I understand properly. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:48, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You're right MezzoMezzo. What's your idea? -- M h hossein   talk 05:51, 21 August 2016 (UTC)

My suggestion is neutral and helps the readers to understand better.-- Seyyed(t-c) 02:24, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Typically when editors disagree, a good solution would be to return to site policies and guidelines; that way, nobody is taken the side of one person over another, but of the rules of the site.
 * Unfortunately, I'm having difficulty finding an official answer on when specifically a section/subsection header is appropriate. At MOS:HEADINGS and WP:GOODHEAD we can see rules about how to format section headings, but not when or why. Does anybody know a common outcome or official answer on this issue? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:58, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I also could not find an "official" answer. I think such an issue needs to be discussed by editors who use their argument to prove themselves. There are "official" ways for resolving such disputes. I think MezzoMezzo can help much better by bringing his opinion here. If the dispute is not resolved, we can gather more views. -- M h hossein   talk 05:32, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * To say "Mu'awiya breaking the treaty" (in Wikipedia's voice) assumes there is an agreed upon text of said treaty. However, that doesn't seem to be the case here. According to Tabari, two sets of conditions were given to Mu'awiya by Hasan. Mu'awiya agreed upon one of them (Hasan's first letter) but rejected the other set (written unilaterally by Hasan). Moreover, there is no mention of any condition that limits Mu'awiya's choice of a successor in Tabari's account, which can be read here (vol.18, pp.7-8) . Wiqi( 55 ) 16:59, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * If you follow the comments you'll see there are three reliable secondary sources verifying that there were a treaty and Mu'awiyah violated the treaty per those sources. By the way, we don't act based on primary sources such as Tabari. -- M h hossein   talk 17:47, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * So what about Ibn Kathir's story? Seems to me that, if Tabari is a primary source, then Ibn Kathir is also a primary source. You should really take a second look at what a primary source actually is. Neither Tabari nor Ibn Kathir were even born at that time, so technically, they cannot be primary sources. --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Indeed, there was a peace treaty. However, its actual text is lost, its conditions differ, and Tabari speaks of two treaties with only one accepted by Mu'awiya. This can be verified by anyone. The source linked also provides secondary material making the same points. For example in the Introduction of volume 19, p.10: According to both Baladhuri and Ibn A'tham, Mu'awiyah had agreed, in the treaty he made with al-Hasan b. Ali on the latter's abdication, that there should be a consultative council [shura] to decide the succession after him. However, Tabari fails to mention this.. Also in note 34 of volume 18 there is a condition that is rarely found elsewhere: According to Balathuri, Futuh, Mu'awiya assigned 'Ayn al-Sayd to al-Hasan in return for the Caliphate). etc. Wiqi( 55 ) 20:23, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Please avoid making marginal discussions, we're not here to discuss what conditions the treaty had. Rather we are speaking about the violation of treaty by Mu'awiyah through assigning his son as Caliph, which is verified by both reliable sources and users here. This topic aims to reach a consensus on whether we should have a subheading regarding this violation and Yazid's assignment (which seems to me an effective political factor) or not. -- M h hossein   talk 05:49, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * While I'm in agreement with seyyed's suggestion regarding the title and I confess that his proposal was more neutral than mine, I'm waiting for MezzoMezzo's opinion. Up to now, HyperGaruda has disagreed and I can't evaluate Wiqi's exact position. -- M h hossein   talk 06:45, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Whether the treaty had the condition is very relevant to the discussion. There is a Shia view of history in which Hazrat Muawiyah and his son Yazid are vilified. However, Wikipedia is meant to have a neutral point of view, not just a Shia point of view. The view that the treaty had such a condition, and Hazrat Muawiyah allegedly broke it is a significant point of view, and possibly ought to be mentioned.  However it is not an absolute fact.  Of modern authors, neither Stephen Humphreys' nor Alisha Bewley's biographies of Muawiyah mention this alleged condition of the treaty with Hassan. This suggests that they (like Tabari) regard it as untrue. --  Toddy1 (talk) 08:09, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but if we even suppose that "Whether the treaty had the condition is very relevant to the discussion," nothing changes. That authors such as Stephen Humphreys' nor Alisha Bewley's work does not mention the treaty, does not suggest anything. I presented some other credible "modern authors" that mentioned the treaty and said that Mu'awiayah broke the treaty. As you know, we don't act based on our own knowledge/view of things here and have to rely on reliable sources. -- M h hossein   talk 12:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * It would only be fair to mention the other considerations mentioned in sources for Hazrat Muawiyah's choice of successor. As for the story of the alleged condition of the treaty, the most that can be done is to say that some sources mention the story and some sources do not.  One of the sources you cited was Madelung's The Succession to Muhammad: A Study of the Early Caliphate. The comments on it by Humpreys (page 73) are that the book is "carefully documented and closely argued" and that "Madelung can be criticized for relying too much heavily on sources of Shi'ite provenance but he brings much new material to the debate and his arguments and conclusions deserve careful consideration."--  Toddy1 (talk) 19:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but none of the sources are Shia sources. As for Madelung, I never cited to The Succession to Muhammad, rather I cited two of his Iranica articles. Anyway, Madelung is a well known orientalist. Then what about Encyclopedia of Islam and the Muslim world (cited above), is it another Shi'a source? More can be found by a quick search. -- M h hossein   talk 02:16, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The citation to The Succession to Muhammad with reference to the conditions of the treaty with Hasan is in the second sentence of the "Political Background" section. It reads: "In the Hasan-Muawiya treaty, Hasan ibn Ali handed over power to Muawiya on the condition that he be just to the people and keep them safe and secure and that he not establish a dynasty. Hasan and Husayn then moved to Medina.[12][13] "--  Toddy1 (talk) 06:20, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

As I already said, please note that the undoubted violation is verified by various sources. Such as those mentioned here. Naturally, any secondary reliable sources claiming that the treaty was not violated are welcome. -- M h hossein   talk 06:59, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Madelung's view shouldn't be accepted uncritically as fact. As explained above, several historians point out that the conditions of this treaty are found in conflicting reports. And Madelung in The Succession cites another historian's view contrary to his: Mu'awiya, according to Lammens, kept word in everything he had promised. (p.331). Wiqi( 55 ) 15:38, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * You and Toddy1 tend to stick to marginal discussion. You are in fact ignoring that Muawiyah assigned his son Yazid as his successor, the point we were trying to suggest a subheading. -- M h hossein   talk 17:06, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A subheading which, with the current amount of text talking about Yazid's appointment, seems even less necessary than before. --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:42, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I've spent a few minutes trying to catch up on the discussion, but there appears to be a measure of dispute regarding historical events. From what I understand, this dispute is a partial cause over the disagreement regarding the addition of a subheading into the "Political background" section. Is that accurate?
 * I have my opinions about the state of the article, as well as my own personal views on events, but I'm trying to think of a simpler way of solving the dispute before I start to add my two cents. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:35, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Rather irrelevant details
I was reading through the "Political background" again, when it occured to me that I had seen the latter paragraphs not so long ago in exactly the same sensationalist wording: here. I know that a few years ago, there was an editor who avidly added tens of thousands of bytes worth of content to articles regarding Islam's early history. That content was, however, largely a quotefarm and often included entire sections that were slightly or even not at all relevant to a specific page. The same has happened here, considering the revision history. The whole section after "According to Ibn Katheer..." until the reference is a direct quote (copyvio?) from a translation of Ibn Kathir's history (compare to this page, where the quote markup is still visible). Frankly, I do not see what the relevance is of those who did not pledge their allegiance (save for Husayn of course), how they spoke and how they were afraid of being humiliated. When condensed to the relevant essence of these paragraphs, not much is left (Mu'awiyah named his son successor to the caliphate, but some people -Husayn among them- disagreed, period; all of which is already told one paragraph earlier) and a separate subheading is even less needed. Yeah, I think I am going to shorten/delete those irrelevant details. --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

Conculsion
I tweaked the section on the political background and added some info on how the Yazid's succession to Mu'awiyah was an important politico-religious factor catalyzing moving toward the event of Karbala. Meanwhile, I'm suggesting to have a subsection entitled "the crisis of Yazid succession to Mu'awiyah". Please let me know if you think we should not have such a subsection. One thing; Please don't focus on marginal discussions (such as Tabari has not mentioned X or Y, Mu'awiyah never violated anything and etc) and open a separate topic if you feel like doing that. -- M h hossein   talk 14:04, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * What you call marginal discussions are not marginal at all. The whole article is appalling biassed.--  Toddy1 (talk) 14:28, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Please answer the question here and then make a different section to discuss about your concern. Either the article is biased or not, there was a political crisis which led to second Fitna. Therefor, we can make a subsection and use "the crisis of Yazid succession to Mu'awiyah" as its title.-- Seyyed(t-c) 00:11, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I have to say that the section "Political background" is rather redundant to the subsequent section "Events before the battle", in particular the first paragraph, which nicely summarizes the "Political background" section. --HyperGaruda (talk) 15:24, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * HyperGaruda has mentioned good point. I prefer long and detailed poltical background in the body of the article. Thus, we can move some part of the "Events before the battle" to the lead. This will solve the problem of redundancy. -- Seyyed(t-c) 00:21, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I haven't been involved enough to comment on the body of the article. However, the idea of a section on Yazid's succession to (or "of"?) Muawiyah sounds interesting. Would this section, if added, be included in the background section? MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:33, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * You only have to read the section Battle of Karbala to understand this discussion. @Others: I am not against a paragraph about the succession to Mu'awiyah, but I take great exception to including the same information four times. The paragraphs starting with "The Battle of Karbala took place within the crisis...", "Husayn ibn Ali did not accept the request of Muawiyah...", "In his written instructions to Yazid...", and "Muawiyah I died on Rajab 22, 60 AH (680 AD). In violation..." all say the same thing in slightly different wordings: Yazid became Mu'awiyah's successor, but Husayn and others did not agree with this for various reasons. These paragraphs should be merged and condensed to one paragraph. What is then left, is too short to give a separate subheading under "Political background". --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:53, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Although I think we may remove the repeated sentences, I'm against your approach of removing the details for the sake of avoiding a subsection. All the related details may be added, if they are supported by reliable sources. We've got really different materials in those you just mentioned, how can you call them "the same thing in slightly different wordings"? -- M h hossein   talk 05:08, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Allow me to place emphasis on the word "related details". This page is about the Battle of Karbala, not the succession to Mu'awiyah. Also, do I really have to spell it out for you? It seems so. Here is a nice overview of things that are the same in slightly different wordings:

I have grouped the sentences according to their subject, each ending with the letter (a)-(d). These letter correspond to the paragraphs from which the sentences originate: a) "The Battle of Karbala took place within the crisis...", b) "Husayn ibn Ali did not accept the request of Muawiyah...", c) "In his written instructions to Yazid...", and d) "Muawiyah I died on Rajab 22, 60 AH (680 AD). In violation..."


 * Yazid the successor
 * Mu'awiyah had planned to assign his son, Yazid, as his successor and he did this by "persuading several leading companions to swear loyalty to Yazid." (a)
 * by appointing his son, Yazid I, as his successor, (a)
 * who had just been appointed as Umayyad caliph by Muawiyah, (b)
 * Muawiyah I appointed his son Yazid as his successor, (d)


 * Treaty
 * Mu'awiyah broke the conditions of the agreement (a)
 * and considered the request as a breach of the Hasan–Muawiya treaty. (b)
 * According to the Hasan-Muawiya treaty, Muawiyah wouldn't name a successor during his reign and would let the Islamic world choose his successor. (b)
 * In violation of Islamic tradition and his own written agreement with Hasan ibn Ali, (d)


 * The caliphate becomes a monarchy
 * and began the Umayyad dynasty, with its capital in Damascus. (a)
 * According to Fitzpatrick et al. Yazid succession, which was considered as an "anomaly in Islamic history", transformed the government from a "consultative" from to a "kingship". (a)
 * converting the caliphate into a dynasty. (d)
 * Few notables of the Islamic community were crucial to lending some legitimacy to this conversion of the caliphate into a dynasty, (d)


 * Disagreement with the succession
 * The legitimacy of Yazid's succession as well as his "worthiness" for this position was questioned at the time. (a)
 * Husayn ibn Ali did not accept the request of Muawiyah for the succession of his son, Yazid, (b)
 * Husayn ibn Ali along with with the sons of several other well known companions of Muhammad namely, Abd Allah ibn Umar, and Abd Allah ibn Zubayr rejected the caliphate of Yazid, (b)
 * `Abd Allah ibn `Abbas and Abdullah ibn Umar did not want to start another civil war and wanted to wait. Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr challenged them and went to Mecca with Hussein. (c)
 * even people like Said ibn Uthman and Ahnaf ibn Qais denounced his caliphate. (d)
 * Husayn refused it and said that "Anyone akin to me will never accept anyone akin to Yazid as a ruler." (d)


 * Yazid and the Umayyads are bad
 * because he considered the Umayyads an oppressive and religiously misguided regime. (b)
 * Some people claim that Hussein ibn Ali rejected the appointment of Yazid as the heir of the Caliphate as he was a tyrant and would destroy Islam. (c)


 * Husayn's bloodline as his claim to power
 * He insisted on his legitimacy based on his own special position as a direct descendant of Muhammad and his legitimate legatees. (b)
 * Mu'awiyah warned Yazid specifically about Husayn ibn Ali, since he was the only blood relative of Muhammad. (c)
 * Husayn ibn Ali was the most significant threat to this dynastic rule, since he was the only living grandson of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. (d)


 * Husayn migrates
 * As a consequence, he left Medina, his home town, to take refuge in Mecca in 60 AH. (b)
 * Husayn departed Medina on Rajab 28, 60 AH (680 AD), two days after Walid's attempt to force him to submit to Yazid I's rule. He stayed in Mecca from the beginnings of the month of Sha'aban and all of the months of Ramadan, Shawwal, as well as Dhu al-Qi'dah. (d)


 * Unsortable
 * The Battle of Karbala took place within the crisis environment resulting from the succession of Yazid I. (a)
 * In his written instructions to Yazid, Muawiyah suggested specific strategies for each one of them. Therefore, he resolved to confront Yazid. (c)
 * Muawiyah I died on Rajab 22, 60 AH (680 AD). Yazid instructed his Governor Walid in Medina to force Husayn ibn Ali to pledge allegiance to Yazid. (d)

As you can see, much of these paragraphs overlap with each other and should therefore be merged into one coherent piece of text. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:46, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for putting time on this precise collection of sentences. We can now do some trimmings. However, I think you just failed to distinguish between "related details" and repeated sentences. For example, in your "treaty" subsection, we should have the first three and say goodbye to the forth, while in the "Yazid the successor" we may remove more sentences. Anyway, that does not make us ignore the milestone of Yazid's succession to his father. -- M h hossein   talk 12:50, 26 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Up to now, MezzoMezzo, Seyyed and me were in favor of having a subsection regarding Yazid's succession to Mu'awiyah. What do you think? You can see more details in previous comments. -- M h hossein   talk 05:55, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
 * As Yazid's succession to Mu'awiyah is what caused Battle of Karbala, it should have detailed explanation of it in relation to the Battle of Karbala. Definitely a subsection regarding Yazid's succession to Mu'awiyah will be best way to do it.-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 12:35, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

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POV
How is this the Shia view? Not disagreeing, I just want you to give the information to help make the article neutral. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 14:44, 25 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you. Separation of the discussions help to focus on them.-- Seyyed(t-c) 00:22, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? Do you think the article is biased towards the Shia view? Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 13:45, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think that Seyyed meant article is biased in any way but he was thanking you for separating out POV discussion from current discussion in preceding section.-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 10:37, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I understand that, but was the thanks sarcastic or genuine. This could be an example of Poe's law. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 10:55, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * although I should not be talking on behalf of Seyyed but I don't think it was sarcasm, that is not one his strong points.-- Sayed Mohammad Faiz Haider t c s 12:37, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I think it is good idea to provide opportunity for and everyone else to discuss about their concerns.-- Seyyed(t-c) 03:10, 28 September 2016 (UTC)


 * I have restored the POV check banner, because was the one who added this before the renewed discussion about the section header (see section below), so it seems that there are other neutrality concerns. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:32, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

POV section header
Really? "The crisis of..."? You could not just go for a simple, concise and NPOV "Succession to Mu'awiyah"? --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:33, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The concept is induced by reliable sources already cited (e.g. see Elbadri, Rachid (March 2009)). The word "crisis" brings no POV with it self, rather it shows how the succession upheavled the political atmosphere of the time. However let's see how others think about it. -- M h hossein   talk 04:44, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That is a Masters thesis without any shown scholarly impact, and is thus not a reliable source (WP:SCHOLARSHIP: "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only if they can be shown to have had significant scholarly influence."). "Crisis" is only there to give it extra sensationalism and is completely unnecessary, nor supported by reliable sources. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:59, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The reliability of the thesis can be addressed at WP:RSN and I'll take care of that. -- M h hossein   talk 06:48, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You have still not addressed my "conciseness" concern. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:45, 7 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Gathering more views to decide whether we should use the phrase "The crisis of..." at the beginning of the header; . -- M h hossein   talk 17:24, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps "Muawiyah succession crisis". To me it is concise and clear. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 17:31, 2 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: The succession led the to second fitna. To prove my claim I would like to refer to this reliable source from Encyclopaedia of Islam which says:"Yazīd’s caliphate marked the beginning of the crisis, commonly referred to as fitna," reassuring that the word "Crisis" best fits the event.--  M h hossein   talk 06:57, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, is THAT what you mean by "crisis". Obviously, if it is "commony referred to as fitna", we should use "fitna" and not "crisis". --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:21, 4 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: I suggested "Crisis" as a synonym for Second Fitna. I think it is more neutral than Fitna. However, I agree to use Fitna if you think it is a better term.-- Seyyed(t-c) 06:35, 4 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The POV check tag can be removed if the only problem is "crisis". None of these terms, ie. "Crisis" and "Fitna", affect the neutrality.-- Seyyed(t-c) 02:56, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree. I think the "Fitna" consists a collection of events and is not restricted to the battle of Karbala. So, the word crisis matches better, as the sources suggest. -- M h hossein   talk 03:42, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Is it correct that both the terms "crisis" and "fitna" are used by reliable sources? And if so, does one predominate over the other? Predominance might not necessarily indicate preferability, but it could be of benefit. MezzoMezzo (talk) 03:27, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * MezzoMezzo: Thanks for the comment. Yes, both is used. However, per Encyclopedia of Islam, "Fitna" was a "crisis" consisted of a chain of events and is not restricted to the battle of Karbala. So, using "crisis" seems better. -- M h hossein   talk 06:13, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
 * So you want to use "crisis" to describe the succession, which is not the same as the Encyclopedia's use of "crisis" to describe the whole Fitna. In other words, the source still does not support your intended use of "crisis". What is so wrong with "Succession to Mu'awiyah" that you do not want to use it? --HyperGaruda (talk) 05:08, 7 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I removed the title and the POV check tag. Let's solve the problem here, then add it to the article.-- Seyyed(t-c) 05:17, 7 October 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm going to close this discussion. But I need your views on this before doing anything. Thanks. -- M h hossein   talk 14:39, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

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Discuss your points
thanks for editing the page, but I see you tend to engage in edit wars with users holding different POVs as yours (take this message as a warning against Edit warring). Can you please use talk page for showing your objection? -- M h hossein   talk 12:28, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * user:Snowsky Mountain is the second user, after me, whose edits you repeatedly reverted. No idea on this? -- M h hossein   talk 12:30, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 September 2019
In the first paragraph there is a link to "Age of Ignorance" that clearly links the wrong wikipage. This is the one that should be linked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahiliyyah Ethanokoshi (talk) 16:55, 9 September 2019 (UTC)


 * , good catch. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 01:38, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Recent changes in the article
@AhmadLX: Your edits in this article is highly appreciated but there are some points you need to consider. The records shows that you unilaterally changed/removed well sourced longstanding materials which were in the article since 2016 and was a result of back and forth between multiple editors (see Talk:Battle of Karbala). When you do a bold edit and you're then reverted by others, you're advised to engage in discussion, rather keeping on making reverts (see BOLD, revert, discuss cycle).

As for your recent revert, the edit summary includes the following items:

1- "Hasan-muawiya treaty's terms are uncertain and many are fabricated"

2- "Madelung is biased source"

3- "See EI2 for the treaty"

4- "please don't add bogus sources like Nawadir al-Makhtutat and Al-Imamah wal-Siyasah"

Thanks for elaborating on the edit, but your revert had to be done after enough discussions on them. However, find my response to your points:

1- This is not our job to dismiss sourced materials based on our original researches. Three reliable sources (, and ) say act of Muawiyah was a breach of the treaty, and YOU're just removing it based on an original research. If there's a source having another viewpoint, then add it there, but don' remove the well sourced portion of the article.

2- That "Madelung is biased source" does not make it unreliable. Please note that, per WP:BIASED, "reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject."

3- I don't remember what EI2 says regarding the treaty, but if it's saying something else, you're welcomed to add it here.

4- On what basis do you think 'Nawadir al-Makhtutat and Al-Imamah wal-Siyasah' are "bogus". Can you elaborate on that please?

Moreover, with your recent revert, you removed many other well sourced materials, such as "The legitimacy of Yazid's succession as well as his "worthiness" for this position[12] was questioned at the time,[16][17][18]", "Husayn ibn Ali rejected the caliphate of Yazid,[12] because he considered the Umayyads an oppressive and religiously-misguided regime. He insisted on his legitimacy based on his own special position as a direct descendant of Muhammad and his legitimate legatees" and etc. Please note that I'm ready to discuss every single concern raised by you. -- M h hossein   talk 12:20, 26 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I know the discussion, that you claim had reached consensus. There was nothing like consensus; the participants left in face of your persistence. Of the three RS you link, two are from Madelung (on whom see below), so it is one source not two. The other presents what Shia think of Hasan's treaty, and you are using it in the article to assert it as historical fact. Regarding Madelung, yes he is biased source as evidenced by the reviews of his Succession by Kennedy, Morony, Newman and others. Per policy, that you quoted and which I was unaware of, it at most can be presented as view of Madelung, not as historical fact. EI2, if you can't remember just see article on Hasan in vol 3. It says what I said in the edit summary. Nawadir al-Makhtutat and Al-Imamah wal-Siyasah are bogus as they are not third party scholarly sources published by reputable publishers but written by religious writers with intention of promoting their religious viewpoints. Why do we have to use these when we have scholarly works of academic historians like Wellhausen, Vaglieri, Kennedy, Hawting, Lewis and many others (just see bibliography)? Why do we have to use sources like Luhuf, Ibn Athir, Mukarram, Twelvershia.net, al-islam.org? AhmadLX-(Wikiposta ) 13:38, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Look more carefully, I was not alone in that discussion so please modify the point. Anyway, this is a clear indication of an edit war on your part. As for the biased source, the policy says "Sometimes" those sources are better to be used in their own voice, not 'always'. You said "The other presents what Shia think of Hasan's treaty, and you are using it in the article to assert it as historical fact," which is completely wrong; the source clearly says "But Muawiyah broke his promise by appointing his son Yazid to succede him..." You also did not say why you removed, without explanation, portions such as "The legitimacy of Yazid's succession as well as his "worthiness" for this position[12] was questioned at the time,[16][17][18]", "Husayn ibn Ali rejected the caliphate of Yazid,[12] because he considered the Umayyads an oppressive and religiously-misguided regime. He insisted on his legitimacy based on his own special position as a direct descendant of Muhammad and his legitimate legatees" which all had reliable sources supporting them. You'll be reverted if you don't have logical response to my objections (note that you're edit warring to remove some sentences which were here since 2016). -- M h hossein   talk 12:58, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * As for sources like Nawadir al-Makhtutat and Al-Imamah wal-Siyasah, now I have no objection against their removal, though I believe they should be taken to RSN to have a stronger consensus over it. -- M h hossein   talk 13:06, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, you weren't alone, else it won't have been a discussion ;) But the fact is that the people opposing your viewpoint left without there being any consensus, and then someone showed up who shared your viewpoint and thus you reached that "consensus". Although it is not edit warring, but if, for a moment, I accept your accusation that it is "clear indication of edit war" on my part, then you better know that I responded to your edit war: you removed my contributions and restored yours, twice. It doesn't matter if it was done through "undo"/"rollback" or manually, effect is the same. I hope you know what parable means? The author calls it a parable. In that parable he also says "imams...having access to the divine meaning of the revelation"; now don't tell me that the author believes in the doctrine of Imamate. You say I didn't explain removal of:
 * "The legitimacy of Yazid's succession as well as his "worthiness" for this position[21] was questioned at the time,[24][27][28]"
 * Would you mind checking what I replaced it with? My version presents the rejection of his nomination by all the prominent guys, and with better sources. Your [27][28] as discussed above are bogus, [24] is on a tangentially related topic, and it says nothing unusual that my sources don't. And since its main focus is not this topic, it omits various important details; for example it omits doubts cast by modern historians on story of Husayn's decision to turn back after knowing of Ibn Aqil's execution. If we go by your way thinking and use such sources, we will have to present material presented by this author as fact. When writing article, always best sources written by scholars working in the field are used. Same goes for [21]. In fact, vast number of sources, including Wellhausen, Donner, Kennedy, and Hawting, explicitly state that Husayn and Ibn al-Zubayr had their own ambitions. Nevertheless, opposition to Muawiya's nomination was principally because of hereditary succession, as the article presently describes.


 * Husayn ibn Ali rejected the caliphate of Yazid,[12] because he considered the Umayyads an oppressive and religiously-misguided regime. He insisted on his legitimacy based on his own special position as a direct descendant of Muhammad and his legitimate legatees". Vast majority of sources state that he told Walid to pay allegiance in public and then went to Mecca without paying allegiance. It is only Dakake, AFAIK, which sates that his rebellion was motivated by his satus as Muhammd's grandson. As sated above, most RS state he was motivated by his ambition for the caliphate. It is rather strange that you insist on that these be ignored and view of Dakake be presented. The religious sources don't constitute RS and if you want community input on them, it is your responsibility to take them to RSN, not mine. Something there being since 2016 is no guaranty for it to be correct. We better revert to verisions of article from 2001 then? Also, please threaten and give your ultimatums to somebody else! AhmadLX-(Wikiposta ) 15:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Your comment in a nutshell; you think the True version should be implemented and the rest should be removed, which is against WP:NOTEVERYTHING: "Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful." One more thing,SILENCE always implies consent. So, you have acted against a long standing consensus (since 2016), for changing which you needed to make a new consensus. You are then advised to avoid making more reverts unless a new consensus is built. Let me clarify your points; the author of this source never calls Muawiyah's breaking his promise as being "parable" and he clearly says "But Muawiyah broke his promise by appointing his son Yazid to succede him..." In other parts, though, he uses "parable" to narrate a hadith (which is irrelevant to our discussion). As for questioning sources 12 and 16 in this version, your explanation seems good, but I don't think it justifies removal of these reliable sources. Though you're free to add various other POVs according to their weights. I read your comment word by word, and you repeatedly say "vast majority" of the sources say something else without trying to draft them here. We never remove a well sourced viewpoint solely because there's a counter-viewpoint for that. As the policy says, NPOV means "representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic". There's no ultimatums. I don't say we should keep the material just because it's old, I say the material is the result of an older consensus so there should be a newer consensus for changing it. -- M h hossein   talk 05:04, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Consensus? I left the discussion because of the walls of text that went nowhere. It's exhausting to have to discuss every grain of sand, you know... Oh and you are misinterpreting WP:NOTEVERYTHING completely opposite to what it tries to explain, namely that there are limits to the scope of Wikipedia, which is explained in its next line that you conveniently did not mention: "A Wikipedia article should not be a complete exposition of all possible details, but a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject." --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:48, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Hey HyperGaruda, for whatever reason you left, your SILENCE implied the consensus (actually this was not solely your silence with others commenting in the favor of my suggestion). Anyway, thanks to your elaborating on WP:NOTEVERYTHING, I essentially meant the article had to be "...a summary of accepted knowledge regarding its subject". -- M h hossein   talk 12:07, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

True? When did I say anything about truth and usefulness? I said nothing of the sort. I see it is not only sources, but even my comments whom you are twisting. I talked of RS and proper representation of them. Silence is consent? Absurdity of this is astronomical. So you mean if some vandal (I'm not referring to you as vandal; it is a general statement) vandalizes an article and it remains so for three years, it shouldn't be corrected because it was there for three years? As said before, there wasn't any consensus, and one of the participants has just explicitly said it. I am amazed at how you read sources. He starts with "According to Shia accounts" and then in the very next para calls it a parable structure. Why exactly do we need tangentially related sources when we have sources specifically on the topic? And then you removed sfn and re-added already defined sources in ref tags? Why? And again, you changed to Madelung's view to fact? As for opinions, I have added all the significant opinions in a separate section. Please stop portraying opinions as facts. AhmadLX-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 15:20, 31 August 2019 (UTC)
 * VANDALs are exceptions which are acted against in a totally different manner. Also, SILENCE is an explanatory supplement to one of our policies, so if you have problems with that policy, it is not a suitable venue for expressing that. Instead you can take your voice to the related talk page. As for this source, it is explicitly saying "But Muawiyah broke his promise by appointing his son Yazid to succede him..." The "according to shia accounts" is totally irrelevant here and your interpretation of the source is not accurate enough. Same goes for "parable" which is regarding the next paragraph and is not affecting anything here. Please stop transforming facts into opinions. -- M h hossein   talk 13:44, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Vandals are no exception, things are to be seen in view of all the policies of Wikipedia. If something, whether from a vandal or from a discussion, is conflicting with policies of NPOV, RS, Verifiability, it will be challenged and corrected. Also, please do not misquote policies. The policy page you are referring to explicitly denies what you are saying here: "As far as the difference between dissent and silence is concerned, if you voice dissent, failure to make your dissent heated and continuous does not constitute silence and therefore does not constitute consent. Withdrawing from communication with a tendentious or quarrelsome editor does not give that editor consent to do what they like." I am not transforming facts into opinions. What I am saying is that this is not even an "opinion" of the author. You say "But Muawiyah broke his promise by appointing his son Yazid to succede him..." is the author's view. I am saying it is not his view, he is reporting Shia view. Some examples of why is it so: In the same tone, he says (1) "Hasan was important rawi... of the hadith... reflecting role of the imams in having access to the divine meaning of the revelation", (2) "Hasan was too weak politically to challenge Mua'wiya [who] attempted to have him assassinated", (3) "Mua'wiya promised that leadership would revert to the family of the Prophet", (4) [Mua'awiya] convinced Ja'ada, Hasan's wife, to poison the imam". If the author is not reporting Shia view, then he is accepting the Imamate doctrine, that Hasan abdicated because of his political weakness(and not because he was unwilling to continue the war), that at al-Madain Muawiya, and not Kharijites, attempted to assassinate him, and that Hasan died from poisoning from Ja'da. These are Shi'i viewpoints. Historically, some of these are disputed, and some are flat wrong. It is common in scholarly writing to present someone's views in own voice without explicitly mentioning every time "according to so and so". I am changing facts into opinions? What are facts? Something unanimously held by the experts. This is not the case. Refer to note that I have added to the article. This is not a "fact" that such a clause existed in the treaty. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 15:40, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

CE
Thank you for picking this up. You can skip sections 6.2, 7.2 and 7.3, as they are still to be rewritten. Thanks. -- <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-<i style="color:turquoise">)¯\_(ツ)_/¯)</i> 21:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)


 * No problem. Thanks. We have worked well together before, so I know that you won't be shy in letting me know if I get anything wrong, or you don't understand why I've done it. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:40, 19 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes sure. -- <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-<i style="color:turquoise">)¯\_(ツ)_/¯)</i> 21:53, 19 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi . I am not sure what is meant by: "Although he was able to defeat Mukhtar, Umayyad Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan, who assumed power in Syria in 685, eventually defeated and killed him in 692." Could you have a look at it for me please? Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:23, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * There is a mix of "ibn" and Ibn"; ideally this should be standardised. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:25, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I think done . Per sources, in starting it should be "Ibn", when in middle of them name, it should be "ibn". <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 16:27, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi . I have finished my first run through. As requested, I have not looked at "Shia writings", "Politics" nor "Literature". I would be grateful if you could run through the changes and flag up anything you are puzzled by, where I have lost the nuance you intended, or where I am now not accurately representing the source. I will then start my second run through. Thanks.
 * Obviously, when you have completed rewriting 6.2, 7.2 and 7.3 give me a ping and I will look at those for you. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:18, 21 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Doing, will ping you when finished reading. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 21:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

1)He publicly announced that he considered himself bound by the peace treaty between Hasan and Muawiyah as long as the latter was alive." These meeting were secret and Husayn didn't say that in public, although Mu'awiya did get information of this anyway.

2)I don't know of any MOS policy on this, but in accordance the sources, I prefer to write "caliphate" instead of "Caliphate".


 * For most uses you could probably argue that that is reasonable. I'll have a look.
 * OK. IMO when you write "Umayyad Caliphate" it should be uppercase. For other uses it could be lower case. I have left it like that, but feel free to change the former. And see if your GAN assessor feels that it is a proper noun.

3)Hurr ignored the letters... Since Hussayn wanted to imply that the Kufans, implying men from Hurr's army too, wrote these letter, Hurr and his men denied to have written the letters. So "ignored" is not proper here, I think.
 * OK. See what you think of this version? "He then showed them letters he claimed he had received from Kufans, including some in Hurr's force. Hurr denied that this was the case and …"
 * I modified it a bit. Husayn had received letters, it is not just a claim. Although it is uncertain if people in Hurr's army had written any. Hurr denied any involvement with them anyway.

4)and that to compel him Husayn and his companions be denied access to the Euphrates river. Seems some sort of mix up here
 * Better?
 * I modified this as well ;)

5)claimed that Husayn had only suggested that he be left alone. Original formatting was not good, I admit, but this one misses the point. The slave claimed that Husayn demanded to be left alone so he would move from here to there until the situation changes (perhaps in his favor). Here is what a source says "to depart and travel the land until the affairs of the people would clarify."
 * Tweaked.

6)to attack, kill and disfigure him if he was to refuse, as "a rebel,...he was to do no further harm after his death". Perhaps "as he was"?
 * That wouldn't really go with the start of the sentence; if that is left you could have "as he would then have proved himself to be", but that is getting a bit complicated. I like it how it is. But, obviously, feel free to amend.

7)Husayn told his men that they were all free to leave under the cover of night "they can take his family with them" is significant here, since either it would have made sure the opponents wouldn't pursue them out of respect for the women or it would have made Husayn feel secure about his family.
 * Added.
 * modified this as well ;)

8)Zuhayr ibn Qayn attempted to dissuade Ibn Sa'ad from killing Husayn Speech was directed at the opposing army in general.
 * Done.

9)Shemr wanted to burn that one too, but was prevented by his own commanders. Shemr's companions/comrades dissuaded him.
 * Done.

10)The Umayyads were hesitant to attack Husayn directly Umayyad army/Umayyad soldiers/Kufans? No Umayyad was present at the scene.
 * Made it "The Umayyad soldiers".

11)Shemr advanced with a group of foot soldiers towards Husayn who was now almost alone. Husayn didn't start fighting as long as people were fighting on his side and sat in front of his tent. I avoided stating that directly to prevent potential edit war ;) But removal of now prepared to attack as few others were left on his side. carries away even this undertone ;)
 * Very nuanced. Does "Shemr advanced with a group of foot soldiers towards Husayn, who was now prepared to fight as he was almost alone." work for you?
 * Modified a bit.

12)The Umayyads then rushed Husayn. As number 10.
 * Same change.

13)There were eighty-eight dead in Ibn Sa'ad's army. The removed fragment–whom he buried–was to imply, without stating outright (as the sources do), that he didn't bury Husayn and his companions.
 * I am a bit baffled as to why you don't want to state that about Hasayn and his companions; it is sourced and it is obvious from the following text. Tricky to imply that but I have had a go.
 * Well, if we write that, someone may complain "where is it stated?"

14)Ibn al-Zubayr started secretly recruiting supporters in Mecca... It wasn't really recruiting; he accepted pledge of anyone who came to him.
 * Er, that sounds like a dictionary definition of "recruiting". Is there an issue?
 * Fine, no big deal.

15)After the death of Yazid in November 683, the people of Iraq drove out the Umayyad governor, Ibn Ziyad and Tawwabin called on the people to avenge Husayn's death This gives wrong impression that Ibn Ziyad and Tawwabin both called for revenge. I think a comma after Ibn Ziyad would remove confusion.
 * Whoops. Sorry. I have gone for a semi colon.

16)[Abu Mikhnaf's] reports are considered to be balanced accounts. This is not entirely correct. The informants were biased. Abu Mikhnaf himself didn't invent much.
 * OK. I have explicitly said that.
 * I changed this a bit. I think Wikipedia should not make any suggestions.

17)Shi'a Muslims consider the tomb of Husayn to be a source of divine blessings and rewards. Pilgrimage to.
 * Tweaked.

The rest is really good. Thank you very much. And yes, after completing these 3 sections, I will inform you. Thank you. -- <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 22:34, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * IMO this is an important article and you need to get it right. So feel free to come back at me with anything where you feel that I am missing nuances that you wish to convey. It is looking coherent and solidly sourced. Nearly ready for GAN I think. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:47, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you . Have just to re-write the remaining two sections. Should be ready then. Thanks. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 12:35, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I should be able to wrap those up later this evening. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:20, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I have finished remaining sections, and if you can find some time and copy-edit these, it will be great. Thank you. -- <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 22:16, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Update: The section numbering has changed; now they are 8.2 and 8.3 (Politics, Literature). <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 22:22, 1 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Hi . I have copy edited both sections. I have been a little bolder than usual, so could you check my edits - as usual. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for completing the CE. I found a couple typos and fixed them. The rest is, as always, helpful. Thanks again, and I have nominated it for GAN now :) -- <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 12:50, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Muhammad a prophet?
WP has a neutral voice. WP does not sanction one religion over another. The status of Muhammad as a prophet is enjoyed solely by those of the Muslim faith, unbelievers, which include Peoples of the Book, polytheists,agnostics and atheists do not agree. I can only ponder why, the creator of this article did not also include the mandatory pbuh or saaw, behind mention of his name. Recommend that the word prophet be struck as it is not neutral.Oldperson (talk) 22:02, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * See WP:PBUH. --HyperGaruda (talk) 04:32, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I can't see where is he stated to be a prophet in wikipedia's voice :-/ Providing an example would be more helpful than mere rhetoric. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 12:03, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * {{u|AhmedLX}HyperGaruda}} You should read the article that you are so concerned about. From the lede: "he Battle of Karbala was fought on 10 October 680 (10 Muharram in the year 61 AH of the Islamic calendar) between the army of the second Umayyad caliph Yazid I and a small army led by Husayn ibn Ali, the grandson of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, at Karbala Iraq." I see a quibble coming, none the less Muhammad is referred to  as a prophet.Oldperson (talk) 14:19, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Then you should first check the link provided by HyperGeruda. Desribing him as Islamic prophet Muhammad is what is recommended by MOS. And Islamic prophet is what he is. What do you mean by "so concerned about"? I see it is not any bias on my or HyperGrruda's part. It is that you need to see WP:CIR. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 14:36, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Copy that understood.Oldperson (talk) 15:34, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * It's cool. My apologies on being rude. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 15:44, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
 * My apologies to you as well if I offended. FYI, although a kufr I am Islamic friendly (within limits). However I can smell taqiyyah a mile away and have no patience for it. Not accusing you, just giving a little insight.Oldperson (talk) 16:28, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Baquir Majilisis
In reference to your latest edit. Are you saying that a cleric cannot be a historian? That being the case then a prophet cannot be a historian, and for that matter if you are correct, then Muslims should not pay any attention to the sunnah and seerah (sira), well at least the sunnah, not sure if Ibn Ishaq was a cleric .. For my edification could you clarify exactly what was wrong or in dispute with the paragraph as regards numbers on each side, and even better why you dispute the information. I have no investment in either side of this (Sunni vs Shia) dispute, given that I am kufr. although well studied in the Q'uran and hadith. However I am simply curious.ThanksOldperson (talk) 17:53, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I am not concerned with Sunna of the prophet, and if you are concerned with it, its your job, don't tell me that please. Clerics and historians are not the same thing for your info. Baqir Majlisi was a religious cleric and wrote according to his personal religious viewpoint. Other examples like him are ibn Taimiyya, Bukhari, etc. You being well-versed in Quran etc has no bearing on this. In fact, when someone brings in their credentials, it is inherent indication that they realize their point is weak. Again, please keep your kufr stuff to yourself, I have 0 interest in knowing what you believe. -- <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 18:05, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * As for the number of troops, all the historical sources, including Tabari, Baladhuri, Encyclopedia of Islam, Wellhausen and other reputable sources on the subject, mention the number to be 4,000. A credible source on this topic is what is needed to support 3,0000 claim, which is half of entire Iraqi muqatila. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 18:12, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * {{u|AhmadLX). Thanks for clarifying the numbers and your source. I actually have no interest in the Sunnah, that you don't and are Muslim tells me you are Shi'a and as such you have your own POV. As regards kufr. This kufr has no beliefs, opinions aplenty, but not beliefs. Beliefs are beyond reason, they require faith. And as such constitute a part of a persons identity and color their world view. You can't shed beliefs so easily, and those that do, often pick up a new belief and the faithful become extremist converts. Opinions on the other hand are either acquired or arrived at. Acquired opinions require no critical thought, no thinking, simply adopting an opinion from a source that is either feared or exalted. Opinions arrived at require thought, consideration, examination, exposition and are easily set aside when evidence invalidates the opinion. I, hopefully, arrive at my opinions, as I constantly change, if I had beliefs it would not be so easy a task.
 * In my humble opinion, any source of information on the Sunni-Shia, Arab-Persian conflict is, of necessity, tainted as there is no dispassionate outside witness, so we have endless conflict and possibly edit waring. As I said I really don't care, I was simply interested in what colored your POV. CheersOldperson (talk) 18:35, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I have no interest in any editor's belief/disbelief, theological or rational positions. This is an encyclopedia and is supposed to present information as presented by reliable source (you can check what RS are and other related stuff if you want). Anyone with any belief can edit the encyclopedia but when someone attempts to distort facts, synthesize what sources say, use the encyclopedia as propaganda tool, push their beliefs and viewpoints, it conflicts with the mission of this project and is not welcome. This topic area does not attract much attention from unbiased editors who intend to improve the coverage of Islam on this encyclopedia, in last year or so I have been able to identify 8 such editors. As long as I am active on this encyclopedia, I will resist attempts at degrading the the quality of Islam related articles, whether from religious people or from atheist, anti-theist or whatever. We use secondary sources published by modern experts on the subject, who are better equipped to separate fact from fiction and analyze primary sources. My POV is what is POV of the scholarship on the subject. Hope that helps. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 18:52, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * You might notice that I have not edited the article, nor do I intend to. I actually have no interest in the debate and various versions. What does interest me is the bias and POV of the editors. And you do have a POV which is not strictly RS. For information sake, although I hold Saudi Arabia and Iran in disdain, for their forms of injustice, beheading, stoning and hanging from cranes, (FYI also critical of the USA for it's criminial injustice system, and it's legalization of  slavery (the 13thAmendment legalizes slavery for  those convicted of a crime, which as resulted in the re-enslavement of millons of blacks), for their bloodlust and executing innocents  In when it comes to the Saudi-Iran conflict. I am in the Iranian corner. I can't foget that on 9-11, the Iranians showed up in the street waving American flags and standing with America, and that the majority of  the hijackers were Saudi's and that the Saudi hijackers and Usamah bin Ladin were financed by members of the Saudi Royal family.Oldperson (talk) 19:17, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I did not say anything on whether you edited this article. It would be great if you would clarify how my POV is not RS-based. Again, please restrict this to improving articles. You being in Iranian or Saudi camp doesn't interest me, and your insistence on showing yourself to be a rational ideologue only raises suspicion that you are using it as defense. I have come across people who pretend this type of position in order to strengthen their views. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 19:26, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * As I have mentioned previously, multiple sources mention the 30,000 figure for the size of the Umayyad army, so it's not a "fringe view" as has been implied. If Baqir Majlisi's claim is reported by multiple sources, then there is no harm in including it in addition to the 4,000 figure already on this page. Many battle pages on Wikipedia have multiple views for army sizes -- see Battle of Gettysburg or Battle of Thermopylae, for example. Therefore, there is a Wikipedian basis for including both army sizes. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 19:31, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Battle of Thermopylae is a bad example to use, it shouldn't even be GA, as it mainly relies on the works of a historian with Greek sympathies who lived in 5th-century BC. As a rule of thumb, ancient historians and especially priestly writers (such as Baqir Majlisi) work should be taken with a grain of salt, as bias is usually apparent. This is what modern sources (by academic scholars who actually specialize in the field) are for. --HistoryofIran (talk) 19:39, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * In your opinion it shouldn't be GA. But it is, and it has multiple figures for army sizes. And those aren't the only examples. Other battles with multiple reported army sizes include:

Would you like me to go on? Snowsky Mountain (talk) 20:33, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Battle of the Little Bighorn
 * Battle of Fort Sumter
 * First Battle of Bull Run
 * Siege of Boston
 * Battle of Agincourt
 * Battle of Ashdown
 * That the child who died on Husayn's lap was Ali Asghar is a wrong assertion. His name was Abd Allah, and his age I could not find in any RS. EI2 states that according to Yaqubi it was a newly born child, without giving further detail. Tabari doesn't give age of the child, just that it was a young child. According to Iranica, he was a child, although no age is given. As for Akbar, this is a perfect example of synthesis of sources. Akbar is not reporting history, but is discussing beliefs prevalent in the religious families of Hyderabad India (pp. 14-15). We report what is asserted by best scholarship. WP:UNDUE states "Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views.". Tabari, Encyclopedia of Islam, Wellhausen, Hawting, Donner, Kennedy, Daftary, Rotter, Halm, Lammens, Lewis in their works assert the number to be 4,000. If some author writing on a completely different topic takes 30,000 (which is half of the strength of Iraq's fighting force at that time) from a religious source, it be given besides a tonne of scholarly sources? This isn't even fringe. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 20:08, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * There are multiple sources that mention his age as six months old, such as the book from Oxford University Press that you removed from the article. Snowsky Mountain (talk) 20:28, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I did not remove the source from the article, it is in bibliography. I removed the claim that the child was "Ali Asghar" and that he was "6 months old". As I mentioned above, that that source (Akbar) does not discuss history, but discusses religious rituals and beliefs of the Hyderabadi Muslim community. These beliefs may or may not be historical, but Akbar doesn't make judgement on that. And an indicator that that belief is not historical is that the child is called "Ali Asghar", while the name of the child was Abd Allah (See Iranica, EI2, Tabari). You say why I used Tabari despite him being Sunni; Tabari was not a cleric, he was a hitorian, he wrote to report history not what he believed to suit his beliefs. and for your information, Tabari's source on Karbala is Abu Mikhnaf, who was a Shiite but unlike Majlisi, Abu Mikhnaf reported history. See primary sources section. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 20:44, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, I've just realized, isn't Baqir Maljisi the same 17th-century Shia cleric and writer that mass persecuted non-Shia inhabitants in Safavid Iran to the extent that it was ripped apart by revolts? If so, then thats even a bigger no go. HistoryofIran (talk)
 * It is exactly that Muhammad Baqir Majlisi. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 21:25, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Yeah I thought so. Although a little error on my behalf: he wasn't directly behind the revolts (at least the major ones), as he had already died a few years before that, but he was certainly the main instigator behind this persecution/discrimination system that even for Safavid standards were quite overwhelming (for people who are doubting me, see "The Sword of Persia" by Axworthy and the article of Soltan Hosayn in Iranica). Anyhow, guess we can safely move on from this topic. HistoryofIran (talk)

Umayyad Army's strength was 30,000 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alamdar04 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

Good sources to reach FA article

 * Karbala and Husayn ibn Ali in The Princeton Encyclopedia of Islamic Political Thought-- Seyyed(t-c) 03:52, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks . These contain some useful info on traditional as well as revolutionary interpretation by the Shiites. Any source which would discuss the general Sunni position on Husayn's motivation? Thank you. <i style="color:turquoise">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:teal">Wikiposta</i> ) 11:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
 * No. Both of them have focused on Shia's interpretations and remembrance rituals. I have not found a good source for Sunni views yet.-- Seyyed(t-c) 12:18, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2020
The number of the Umayyad Caliphate belligerent was at least 10,000 and many traditions say 50,000. Not 4,000 to 5,000.

The number of losses of the Umayyad Caliphate belligerent was at least 500. Many traditions state it was up to a 1,000. You have 88? It is stated that Al-Abbas and Hussein killed 80 plus by themselves.

These numbers in the table must be changed. Alibaker111 (talk) 18:09, 23 August 2020 (UTC)
 * We try to reflect reliable secondary sources (scholarly sources are ideal), if you could point to some better sources than we're currently using that'd be good. – Thjarkur (talk) 18:17, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Propaganda and bias
In its current form, the article is nothing more than anti-Shia propaganda and its clearly written based on the Sunni point of view backed by some Western sources that reaffirm it because it is “the opinion of majority.” The article tries to suggest that before 680, Shias did not exist and only from the on “Shia Islam arose from a political movement”, which is not true at all. Shias can claim that Sunni Islam also never existed and arose from the rule of the Umayyad Caliphs who ruled I opposition to the Prophet’s family. This is a Sunni propagated view to strip Shias of any legitimacy as being “non orthodox” and “political rather religious movement.” More propaganda includes notion that Hussein had an “army”, while Karbala was an ambush massacre of Prophet’s grandson and the people that accompanied him. Hussein didn’t stand up to Sunni Umayyads because of politics and lust for power, but from religious convictions and moral justice etc. The current article is clearly bias and one sided with thinly veiled Sunni point of view on things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2406:E003:835:201:D979:5249:4EC8:8C54 (talk) 01:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The Talk Pages are not for the discussion of the topics, but for the use of Reliable Sources being addressed for the betterment of the articles. Your rant is in clear violation of WP:FORUM 50.111.19.2 (talk) 01:09, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Dispute Resolution
First, I didn't speak well to AhmadLX, and he didn't well treat whit me either.

During this two-day opportunity, after speaking with my friend, I have a suggestion to end this discussion.

In all articles, written alongside each minimum numbers write maximum numbers. The number of 30,000 people in the book Hussaini Encyclopedia (wrote by Mohammad Reyshahry in 10 years,16 books, has 138 unit. Finished in 22 years ago),writer is approved by the Encyclopaedia Islamica(one of my friend say this is wrote in this but I don't see.). nafas almahmom (Its source is 18 first-hand sources like lohof and tabari.author has removed the unsubstantiated and fake narrations by comparing the sources.).

Reflection on the Ashura movement (by Rasul Jafarian)﴾an analytical history of Shia and Sunni resources.﴿

The Price of Freedom: The Unfinished Diary, Volume 1(by Hasan Muhammad Tiro) Your Questions Answered volume VIIBy (by Sayyid Saeed Akhtar Rizvi) Know and Follow the Straight Path: Finding Common Ground Between Sunnis and Shi’As (By Tallal Alie Turfe p 364. 2015) also write this number.

The Comprehensive an Persian academic website has an article on this subject http://ensani.ir/fa/article/46129/%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A7-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%A2%DB%8C%D9%86%D9%87-%D8%A2%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%88-%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%85, The author reviews various historical resources. which also mentions this number.

Next to the number 88 people, number 250 people should be added, which is the maximum amount. I see more but I think this is true.

(If after this you still say it just for shia the minority of the individuals is also written in all articles.)

This can slove the difference between ar & ur & fa (of course fa wrote 8000~30000) Wikipedia With en Wikipedia.(I think this is bad.)

Like this happend in bn & hi & ru Wikipedia.

thanks 🙏. M.Nadian (talk) 19:40, 22 August 2021 (UTC)


 * It is good that you are willing to discuss. Now, scholarly value of a source is not determined by how many years it took the author to complete it and how many volumes it contains. You clearly haven't read WP:RS, or haven't been paying close attention. So please read it, also read WP:Primary, and WP:OR. A nutshell is given here: Wikipedia uses neutral, third-party, reliable sources, published by reputable publishers. The sources you cited above are neither neutral nor third-party. Know that all religions and sects have their books, written by their "scholars", who justify their POVs. If we use these, we will end up in a mess. Because they don't agree with each other, that's why they are different. That's why we require publications by third party (that means non-involved) authors, who are not out there to prove their beliefs and POVs. The sources of highest RS category have been now added to infobox. You are encouraged to check them out. Note that they are not all. There are more, but 5 should suffice as a sample. The journal article that you link, although seemingly neutral, does not appear so after close inspection, as it looks at the subjects with reverence. Even if we consider it RS, it is a single exception against an overwhelming consensus, and would fall under WP:Fringe.


 * Arabic and Persian Wikipedias are not a reference standard for English Wikipedia. Every Wikipedia version has its own guidelines and policies. Arabics Wikipedia's articles on Early Islamic Period are often atrocious. Their article on Kharijites is a polemic, whereas their Battle of Karbala article was promoted to FA status, according to its own talk page, without a review. What other Wikipedias do is of no relevance at all. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 14:32, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

My source aren't just these, I find these, Number of source don't necessarily indicate superiority.I'm not say delete 4000, I say add 30000, and for this I just need comes good source.

All of this book are secondary source and true in WP:SECONDARY and they WP:NOR.

The author of Nafs al-Mahmom is mostly a religious scholar, and isn't WP:RS also Rizvi.

But

Rasul Jafarian is history researcher. He is now a professor history of Tehran University, head of the Specialist Library of Islam and Iran, and head of the Central Library of Tehran University. In the year 1397, Rasoul Jafarian one of members of the General Assembly of Sciences, and joint conference of IRI Cultural Association. He is know teaching in Tehran University. He is book is WP:RS and between secondary and Tertiary sources.

Muhammad Tiro aren't shia and I think he is researcher not religious scholar. I think He is book is WP:RS.

I think Tallal Alie Turfe also aren't shia and religious scholar but I'm not certainly. I think He is book is WP:RS but I'm not certainly.

Reyshahry is a religious scholar but also researcher. Can WP:RS because he aren't alone in writing this book.

Of course, it doesn't matter whether they are Shia or not, Seyyed Hussein Nasr is Shia, but because he has international prestige, has written for Britannica, his prestige goes beyond the religious point of view.

This website is Tertiary sources, with discount can give WP:RS.

I didn't main en Wikipedia follow other languages, I mean, it was better to resolve the dispute.

I think this is enough, true? Thanks 🙏. M.Nadian (talk) 16:39, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

In the passage after {where a larger Umayyad army of 4,000 arrived soon afterwards.}

Add (According to other source, in this 8 days some arms came to Karbala. (A total of 30,000 people.))

and after

{On the following day, a 4,000-strong Kufan army arrived under the command of Umar ibn Sa'd. He had been appointed governor of Rayy to suppress a local rebellion, but then recalled to confront Husayn. Initially, he was unwilling to fight Husayn, but complied following Ibn Ziyad's threat to revoke his governorship.}

Add under picture File:Battle of Karbala (Without written version).jpg ( According to other source in this 8 day 10 arms total 30000 troops come.)

Because that written once in above, I think it's better to come in the corner with pic.

My wording isn't good, better be add with better wording. Thanks 🙏. M.Nadian (talk) 14:44, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * So I looked into Jafarian's book today. Although I don't consider it an RS, Jafarian does not state that the army was 22,000. He only writes that Ibn Atham Kufi has reported 22,000. Now, I know what Ibn Atham has written. Please refer to I.K.A Howard's commentary on primary sources on Karbala event (see Bibliography: I.K.A Howard: Commentary on the accounts of Martyrdom in Arabic sources). Ibn Atham's is the most exaggerated account of all the primary sources. Baladhuri, who was a great historian by the standard of his time, has also reported some large number, I don't remember how high, but we didn't include even that, for as I have mentioned a number of times before, secondary RS all talk about 4000 people. On the other sources, I have already said good deal above. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 15:34, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

1. He's book is completely RS.

2. He is researcher, He in 4 page of this book says about Atham and his books and after all accept Atham.

3. You don't read the book completely, he wrote three different numbers and for it from three books, you just saw once. between 22000 to 28000 and Last number is between 28000 to 35000.

4. I say another sources (except 2 or 3 of them) I say, are accept all of wiki law (secondary and RS and NOR), but this book is better other ones.

5. Your sources says (1000 hur and 4000 omar = at least 5000)

6. I comes 3 or 5 source have all of wiki law, for adding in this article, I just need one source, Because I don't want delete your source I want add another things and you aren't see this.

I think this is enough for adding. Thanks 🙏. M.Nadian (talk) 19:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
 * 1.Where does he state that they were 22,000 or 28,000 or 35,000? He attributes them to Ibn Atham, and he himself adds that many of them would have escaped on the way.
 * 2. Jafarian himself states that embellishments of Ibn Atham lower the value of his book, and considers reliable material that is corroborated by other sources. You have been misrepresenting him.
 * 3. He is not RS because he is a cleric, and writes from a religious point of view. He refers to Muhammad as PBUH, Husayn as AS, Umayyads as Cunning people, Some of the Sunnis as Fanatics, and so on. What parts of RS page you don't understand? A source from a academic historian, not a cleric like Jafarian who was trained in the Qum Seminary as Hujjat ul Islam wal-Muslimeen, published by an academic publisher is needed. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 20:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I say today to one of my friend search for another source have all wiki law if he can I give you.

His book is an analytical and examines various narratives. He analys 7 sources about ashura and 2 source about arbaeen and after that write stoty of Ashura.

I said that he has 2 another sources for numbers, (I think he him self believe 22000, for this website he wrote: https://www.khabaronline.ir/amp/389672/ )

He critique to Ibn Atham, but he doesn't rule out him and confirms at total, and say: atham has good and new between another but his sources should comparison and extract by another source. When he says in p 96 (in Persian book, 2007) atham, wrote more accurate others number of yazid troops.

he teaches at the university. He said, he learn a little history by hoze, he learn more him self by reading and searching and university accept him and his books. His good for his academic, not religious scholar. Reyshahry and sheikh abas qumi are religious scholar and haven't academic and haven't RS but jafarian have.

What about that website? It can give RS with discount. (If you think website can give, add with this source)

Tallal Alie Turfe isn't religious scholar, I see him on one website. (On that pic he stand with an sunni religious scholar.) This website says he is dr.Tallal Alie Turfe.

An magazine (The Minaret: The Islamic Magazine, Volume 24 by Islamic Center of Southern California., 2002) I think writer is sunni but not certainly.

Thanks 🙏. M.Nadian (talk) 14:17, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

For better getting solution, I ask Seyyed to help us in this talk.M.Nadian (talk) 07:48, 26 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes it would be better if would advance your position (if he agrees with it) as he knows the policies and guidelines. Thanks. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 09:55, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

I think sa.vakilian aren't come. I want to summarize my contents, I find some new source.

1. Henry Munson{Ph.D., Social/Cultural Anthropology, University of Chicago, 1980},Islam and revolution in the Middle East publisher Yale University Press.

2. writer of that website {PhD Student History}.

3. Reflection on the Ashura movement Rasul Jafarian(2800)

4. Jalal Moughania Husayn: The Saga of Hope.

5. Tallal Alie Turfe{president of Premier Health Group LLC and a professor of management and religious studies at several universities} Know and Follow the Straight Path: Finding Common Ground Between Sunnis and Shi’As.

at least 4 of them is true, and for adding one of them is enough. thanksM.Nadian (talk) 11:24, 5 September 2021 (UTC) Its ok? can I add? M.Nadian (talk) 13:07, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi, sorry for the delay. I have been quite busy lately. Give me a couple days to find and check these sources. If you have soft copies, or links, please share. Thanks. -- <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 05:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, no problem. 1.page23 https://books.google.com/books?id=K50_EAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Islam+and+revolution+in+the+Middle+East&hl=fa&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAg_Te_fjyAhUd_rsIHTBZDT8Q6AF6BAgJEAM#v=onepage&q=thirty%20thousand&f=false 2.http://ensani.ir/fa/article/46129/%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%B4%D9%88%D8%B1%D8%A7-%D8%AF%D8%B1-%D8%A2%DB%8C%D9%86%D9%87-%D8%A2%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%B1-%D9%88-%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%85 3.his finally view in this website https://www.khabaronline.ir/amp/389672/ 4.https://books.google.com/books/about/Husayn.html?id=mo6UzgEACAAJ 5.https://books.google.com/books?id=3zr9CAAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Know+and+Follow+the+Straight+Path:+Finding+Common+Ground+Between+Sunnis+and+Shi%E2%80%99As&hl=fa&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi54_ng__jyAhXJgP0HHVWFAPAQ6AF6BAgDEAM#v=onepage&q=30000&f=false

Thanks 🙏. M.Nadian (talk) 08:20, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I looked into the books. Munson's work is certainly RS of high standard. The others are non-RS. Now, Munson expressly states (cf. pp.7, 17) that he is reporting the believers' perspective. Nonetheless, I am willing to compromise on this, as the source is high quality, and also to put the issue to rest. You should add this as "30,000 according to the Shi'a sources.[Reference of Munson here]" Make sure to follow the citation style: source in the bibliography section using appropriate template (i.e. cite book), and as inline citation. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 19:06, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. Can I add 30000 next to 5000 in the infobox? realy my tring is for this. In my opinion, at least Jafarian and Ph.D. student also has RS.M.Nadian (talk) 10:14, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

thanks. but Why you add 30000 in the note in top of it(in text), many people aren't see that.

Please Change it.M.Nadian (talk) 07:48, 26 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Because lead section is for giving an overview of the most important points of the topic. See MOS:INTRO and MOS:LEADREL. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 14:46, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok I agree. Thanks 🙏. M.Nadian (talk) 20:05, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Peace treaty
Was it only Madelung saying Yazid's nomination by his father was violation of the peace treaty? The current wording of the article ("a move labelled by...") conveys this impression which I think is wrong. More sources can be found: "But Mu'awiya broke his promise by appointing his son Yazid to succeed him, and convinced Ja'da, Hasan’s wife, to poison the imam." I would like to hear from others. and others. -- M h hossein   talk 04:28, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree. of course, Mu'awiyah violated more conditions. M.Nadian (talk) 06:48, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


 * This suggests that Muawiya did not abide by the succession by shura requirement of the peace treaty: Albertatiran (talk) 08:32, 14 December 2021 (UTC)


 * and friends. What exactly do you want to achieve? I see constant insistence on tiny and trivial issues here on this article. You want to emphasize that Muhammad's family members were innocent and cheated by Mu'awiya? Or what else? There was long campaign on 30,000 as if 4,000 weren't seemingly enough to slaughter 70 men. Now this. If Madelung and Jaffri, of the works of these two see what their peers have said, say that Mu'awiya violated the treaty, there are others who say no term existed in the treaty. Still others who emphasize that Mu'awiya's nomination of Yazid was in view of the stability of the empire etc. Unless you wish to make this article into debating mess of Hasan's treaty with Mu'awiya, just drop the stick. Also, you reinserted the unfounded claim that Husayn's son was one month old--see the pattern? Insistence on innocence, again. The article already mentioned that a young son of his was killed in an arrow shot. Where do you get that he was 1 month. I'm undoing your edit. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 13:18, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
 * @AhmadLX: Here we discuss solely based on the reliable sources, so I'd like to ask you avoid other irrelevant topics like "trivial", "pattern" and etc. This is a GA article so let's avoid inaccuracies, AMAP. The current wording is not in anyway accurate because even you agree it is not only Madelung mentioning the violation. Do you have any suggestions as to how this issue may be resolved with the knowledge that we don't have much room for maneuver? -- M h hossein   talk 04:57, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, but when discussing a controversial issue, all viewpoints from RS are evaluated impartially. Now, doing this in this article would require adding Lewis, Hinds, Shaban, Kennedy, Vaglieri, and Marsham (and perhaps more) in addition to Madelung and Jafri; which is not needed in this article. This is not an article about Hasan, nor about Hasan-Mu'awiya treaty. In its current state, the article mentions briefly Madelung's view and in the relevant footnote discusses Vaglieri's and Jafri's position on the terms of the treaty; which is enough for this article. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 19:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Ali Asghar's death
If I am reverted only because I mentioned was 6 months (where did I say 1 month???), then I don't insist on this figure. We can just say he was an infant or so. According to Vaglieri "...it had just been born", or this book published by the New York University press just says on P.110 that he was an infant. Why not referring to ––? There are other sources like this saying he was a baby. -- M h hossein   talk 04:57, 15 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sorry fo "1 month"; I misread it. But that's beside the point. The thing is that there is no credible evidence that the boy was an infant. Infact, his name was not even Ali, but more likely Abd Allah, hence Husayn's Kuniya Abu Abd Allah. Vaglieri doesn't say the child had just been born. She says that Yaqubi claims as such. Hyder's EI3 article I don't have access to. If you could quote him, that would be great. The other source is non-RS-- title: "For the Love of Husayn (AS)". The other point is that the current article doesn't say he was not a child. The article does specifically state he was a young child of Husayn. It just doesn't state exact age, as there is no good evidence for it. If an RS or two of the standard used in the article state that (by stating I mean the author giving his/her personal analysis, and not plain statement of what believers think), we can sure add that. Third: not in the lead; lead is for a brief overview of the most important points of the article. This is not one of the most important points of article. Hope that explains my position. <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 19:18, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I am trying to understand your real issue with adding the child of death to the lead. First you mention the age, and now after seeing the sources, you say we don't know if he was an infant and that the lead is for a brief overview. As you have already said, be it an infant or a child, death of his youngest child has been mentioned in numerous sources, proving it's significance. Najm Haider writes as such in EI3" "The sources report the deaths of important individuals, particularly members of al-Ḥusayn’s household, including his eldest son (ʿAlī b. al-Ḥusayn al-Akbar), his infant son (ʿAbdallāh b. al-Ḥusayn), ...". The fact that his infant/child was killed by the enemy is of course of the most important points of this incident. In almost every such incidents, it's a very common practice to report women and children causalities. -- M h hossein   talk 05:49, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My real issue is—I mentioned it above as well, maybe you didn't read it carefully—that you want to emphasize that Muhammad's family was persecuted by their enemies. What part of MOS:Lead you don't understand? It was a battle, and a boy died in the battle. So what? It might be a serious atrocity in your view, but it has little for a non-partisan person, certainly not enough to warrant a place in lead. The fact that his infant/child was killed by the enemy is of course of the most important points of this incident. Who says so? Of course it is most important for you. Are we going to write Wikipedia from your perspective then? <i style="color:teal">AhmadLX</i>-(<i style="color:brown">Wikiposta</i>) 13:38, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 March 2022
109.171.133.190 (talk) 10:01, 24 March 2022 (UTC) Their are some incorrect information in this page such as The ummuyad army having 4,000–5,000 solders while they had 30,000 and The ummuyad army had loses are unknown and it wasn't 88 and this is a fact which is agreed upon In general Muslims..............
 * Try reading Tabari's history. It would give you a more accurate idea about what happened than you have now.  There are books with fantasy versions of the battle, in which Husayn's retinue kill thousands of people.  If you compare the battle to say the Battle of Rorke's Drift (156 defenders killed 351) or the Battle of Omdurman (20,000 defenders killed 12,000), you can see how silly the fantasy versions are.  (By the way, the defenders at Rorke's Drift and Omdurman had better weapons than the attackers.  That was not the case for Husayn's retinue.) -- Toddy1 (talk) 10:22, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

No title
There are two important things in this battle which defines Yazeed's mindset. (1) The child named Alian Asghar son of Husyan age of only six months was killed for political purpose. (2) Daughter of Husyan named Sakina age of four years was also arrested along with family of Husyan. These acts were anti Humanity. On the other hand if we study history of Islam since birth of Husyan grandson of Muhammad it was instructed by the Prophet Muhammad to sport Husyan. That's why a large number of people believe in Islamic ideologies protest against this act and still trying to notify that they are not with Yazeed's ideologies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Azhargullkhan (talk • contribs) 12:48, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring
Please do not throw random accusations of 'vandalism' just because I don't agree with your edit. You are disrupting a GA article by adding the citation needed bracket, even though the statement is well sourced, just like any other place in the article. Hence why it's GA (Good articles). Curiously enough, you only added the bracket for the lost numbers of the Umayyads. If you do not revert yourself and reach WP:CONSENSUS, I will report you to WP:ANI for WP:TENDENTIOUS. I would highly advise you to read the Wiki guidelines, including ASPERSIONS, MOS:LEAD and WP:CITE. EDIT: The fact that you write 'Husain(R)' really says it all. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:18, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

An edit war that you started and yourself continuing for no reason. You're removing my fully reasonable edits, that is vandalism. Now you removed my added discussion(the 2nd one) from your page as well without any excuse, maybe even without reading it? So here's the copy of it: "Honestly, I really wanted to read a source about the war that gives an actual reliable figure of casuality of the forces fighting against Hussain(R), no better way to find it then putting a tag on the article itself. You know very well that what I asked for is well within Wikipedia rulebook. But instead you chose to start an unconstructive edit war that leads to nothing. What is your issue with a citation requirement tag anyway?" Ishan87 (talk) 16:27, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, per the rules you have to reach WP:CONSENSUS if your edit(s) gets reverted. My talk page is not a place for you to write about this topic. And what rulebook is that? Why was the article made GA then? And why did you only add it on the Umayyad bit in the infobox? --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:29, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Did I say anything about feelings? Are you here for a discussion or drama? If you're unable to have a decent conversation then keep your immature behavior to yourself. Literally every Wikipedia article has some citations in the boxes, so don't act like you've no idea. Asking for sources is allowed everywhere in Wikipedia, so get over it. Ishan87 (talk) 16:35, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:36, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I did, but you didn't answer mine. Ishan87 (talk) 16:48, 25 December 2021 (UTC) guys can you tell me if my edits were right or are they against WP:CONSENSUS like he's claiming?
 * Why are you asking them? Why not read the guideline yourself? This seems like a clear lack of WP:CIR to me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 16:57, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Ishan87, the information is also in the body of the article and a citation is provided for it there. -- Toddy1 (talk) 12:03, 26 December 2021 (UTC)


 * By they way, warning messages on your talk page serve to alert people that you might need help. So removing them is self-defeating. -- Toddy1 (talk) 12:07, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay I noticed it now. That's all I wanted in tge first place bro. There was no need of that edit fight. But instead of pointing it out he kept removing all my edits. Anyway thank u Toddy1 Ishan87 (talk) 01:42, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran I have no hard feelings for you. Hope we can have a better understanding next time Ishan87 (talk) 01:46, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Why did you resume your edit warring right after your block? Even it's 80% of it . If you continue this pattern, I will report you to WP:ANI. Also, if you think that I am socking then please do file a sockpuppet report. --HistoryofIran (talk) 01:58, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm not wearing with u dude. I'm just doing my own thing. It's got nothing to do with you or anybody. Instead of mentioning terms can you elaborate and explain these terms and stuff in easy language so that I understand what exactly is the problem with my other edits? I'm still not familiar with all these WP terms and reading them doesn't explain much. Ishan87 (talk) 02:06, 28 December 2021 (UTC)


 * "Instead of mentioning terms can you elaborate and explain these terms and stuff in easy language so that I understand what exactly is the problem with my other edits?"
 * I can not speak for HistoryofIran, but you added Qasim ibn Hasan who is not mentioned and clearly not sourced in this article. And instead of explaining your edit and why it should be changed you continue to edit war. --Kansas Bear (talk) 02:48, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Qasim is mentioned in Tabari which's already linked Ishan87 (talk) 03:28, 28 December 2021 (UTC)


 * But not in the article, which is why you should be discussing this not edit warring.--Kansas Bear (talk) 04:16, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I also wrote a discussion about that. they are just Anti-Shia Editors! Haider1111321321123 (talk) 20:11, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

Number of Yazid troops, number of killed from Yazid corps
According to historical documents 30000 person شیخ صدوق، الامالی، مجلس ۲۴، ص۱۷۷، ح ۳ و مجلس ۷۰، ص۵۴۷، ح ۱۰. سید ابن طاووس، اللهوف، ص۷۰ 22000 person ابن اعثم، همان، ج۵، ص۸۴ ـ ۹۰ و ص۱۰۱، خوارزمی، همان، ج۱، ص۳۴۱ـ ۳۴۵. ابن عماد حنبلی، شذرات الذهب، ج۱، ص۶۷، مجلسی، همان، ج ۴۴، ص۳۸۶ عمدة الطالب فی أنساب آل ابی طالب، ص31000۱۹۲ خصیبی،الهداية الكبری،51000۲۰۲ Which is an average of 30,000 people. No strong historical document has given the exact number of casualties of Yazid Corps.

If anyone has a document to the contrary, leave it here Thanks M.Nadian (talk) 20:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello, you have been sufficiently notified that you are edit warring and this could result in you being blocked from editing. It is not Wikipedia policy to go by primary sources (i.e. the "historical documents") when there appears to be plenty of high quality, academic secondary sources available about the subject. The burden is on you to reach a consensus by discussion or drop the stick. Al Ameer (talk) 03:57, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I discuss in the context of Wikipedia. You have no documents. I brought secondary documents and primary documents. This is a war with the truth! Please bring your documents and not undo whiout source. M.Nadian (talk) 12:07, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Exactly! Haider1111321321123 (talk) 20:12, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

False Information
Ummayad forces were 30,000 References: شیخ صدوق، الامالی، مجلس ۲۴، ص۱۷۷، ح ۳ و مجلس ۷۰، ص۵۴۷، ح ۱۰. سید ابن طاووس، اللهوف، ص۷۰ Sadooq, Al-Amali, Majlis 24,Page 24 & Vol. 3, Majlis 70,Page 547 Ibn-Taoos,Al-Lahoof, Page 70

And the real strength of Imam hussain was 70! Why? Because, others were women and children.

And the Ummayad Casulaties were 1950! Reference: ابن شهر آشوب، مناقب، ج۴، ص۱۱۰. Ibn-Shahr-e-Ashoob, Manaqib, Vol. 4,Page 110

I request authorized editors to edit it🙏 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haider1111321321123 (talk • contribs) 20:08, 8 August 2022 (UTC)


 * the sources you name and used here (al-Shaykh al-Saduq and Ibn Shahr Ashub) are primary sources. Such sources are not considered reliable for the type of information you would like to add: please see WP:PSTS. We need a reliable, secondary source (see WP:RS and WP:SCHOLARSHIP). Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma  ( talk  ☉) 20:53, 8 August 2022 (UTC)