Talk:Battle of Kosovo

RfC Should Muzaka and Jonima be included in the infobox?
Teodor II Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima are listed in the infobox section "Commanders and leaders". Should they be listed there? --Azor (talk). 19:24, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Exclude. Per Template:Infobox military conflict, . A wide range of sources explain the army to be led by Lazar; with Brankovic and Vukovic leading the respective right- and left wing. Malcom (p 64-65) writes: Lazar commanded the centre; Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general." ie. Vlatko Vuković. It appears that Muzaka and Jonima are included solely based on the fact that certain sources mention their involvement, rather than because they played a leading role. Having the article's body go more in depth about the participants, like it already does, seems like the proper solution. --Azor (talk). 19:49, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Muzaka and Jonima are already included in the infobox, hence the question isn't correct. The question should be Should Muzaka and Jonima be excluded from the infobox?--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:11, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * They were never included as a result of consensus among editors, hence why I asked if they should stay there. --Azor (talk). 06:34, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose exclusion A figure is not included in the infobox because he was a "leader" in the battle, but because reliable sources include them in the list of notable figures who commanded troops in the battle. This is the case for Muzaka who is mentioned in many sources.--Maleschreiber (talk) 22:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The infobox field "Leaders and Commanders" is exclusively for...leaders and commanders. Muzaka at best led a minor contingent, Jonima is not even confirmed. Khirurg (talk) 04:52, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose exclusion: Muzaka has been in the box for over two years, and various attempts have been made to remove those Albanians from an important Serbian battle. Modern politics do not get to determine what content is to be included or to be removed. One can just look at the history of this talk page, I think it gets pretty clear what is going on here. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:22, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Not a single source, or policy-based argument I see. "Over two years" means nothing when it was rammed in by brute-force edit-warring. You are correct though that "modern politics do not get to determine what content is to be included or to be removed". Sources do, and in this case there is very little to suggest these were "Leasers" or "Commanders" in the battle. What is a "Strong" oppose btw, does that count as 2 votes or something? Khirurg (talk) 04:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Since when is it up to you to judge whether a nobleman is a minor figure? ([1 ]) And who gives you the right to tell me how to formulate? AlexBachmann (talk) 18:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Comment Muzaka and Jonima are not descrbied as much as the Serbian leaders. The infobox is supposed to highlight important parts of the article. You could make the argument that Albanian aristocrats should be mentioned as a group, not individually. Senorangel (talk) 01:41, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose Exclusion: Aside from the fact that this has been heavily discussed for months now with the same result, there are many sources which describe Jonima and Muzaka as leaders of the Albanian forces that they brought to the battle as part of the coalition. If WP:RS bibliography (and not just Albanian historiography) considers it important enough that they be mentioned as leaders in the Battle of Kosovo, then the article must reflect that, as RS bibliography dictates what is written in sources. Botushali (talk) 02:02, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Exclusion There are no sources that describe Jonima and Muzaka as "Commanders" or "Leaders" in the battle, hence they have no place in the "Leaders and Commanders" field in the infobox. Jonima's participation in the battle is not even confirmed. But even for Muzaka, there are multiple sources that clearly contradict the assertion that he was a commander in the battle. For instance, even Noel Malcolm in Kosovo: A short history, p. 64-65 states: Lazar commanded the centre; "Vuk Brankovic was on the right and all the foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under the Bosnian general.". No mention of Muzaka or anyone else as a commander or leader. Then there is Dejan Djokić, A Concise History of Serbia, Cambridge University Press, 2023, "It is unlikely, as is sometimes suggested, that Lazar commanded a broad coalition that, in addition to his and Vuk Branković’s armies and reinforcements from Bosnia, included Albanians, Bulgarians, Czechs, Hungarians, Germans and Vlachs.". Khirurg (talk) 04:46, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Dejan Djokic denies the presence of other groups in general - that is a WP:FRINGE theory and therefore a very poor excerpt to try and use as evidence. On the other hand, Xhufi, Veremes, Elsie, Iseni and Petritsch, for example, all describe these Albanian lords as having been leaders of the Albanian forces they brought to the battle. Their quotes are already cited in the article. Perhaps they did not command the main battle lines, but they did lead the Albanian forces. That's a fact according to WP:RS bibliography and the general scholarly consensus. Botushali (talk) 06:03, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Dejan Djokic is a top notch scholarly source, one of the best in the area, and far better than any of the names you drop. Besides, I don't see a single quote in the article describing these two figures as leaders or commanders. . Khirurg (talk) 06:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That's great, kudos to Djokic, but the scholarly consensus is not overturned by what a single author says. Sure, maybe it's a top notch source, but the excerpt used denies the presence of, and that is a fringe theory because we know Serbs were not the only Christians present.
 * Here are just some of the quotes (not all, other quotes can be found cited in the article too):
 * Noel Malcolm, Kosovo: A Short History (1998). Muzaka is not an ordinary fighter here, he brought troops as a lord.
 * from the original chronicle of John Muzaka in 1515
 * Veremes, Thanos; Kophos, Euangelos, Kosovo: avoiding another Balkan war (1998).
 * Robert Elsie, Historical dictionary of Kosova (2004).
 * Genc Myftiu, Albania: a Patrimony of European Values Guide of Albanian History and Culture Heritage (2000)
 * Bashkim Iseni, La question nationale en Europe du sud-est: genèse, émergence et développement de l'identité nationale albanaise au Kosovo et en Macédoine (2008)
 * So, these men were leaders of principalities and brought their own forces to the battle. If WP:RS bibliography thinks its important enough to describe these men as leaders of the Albanians, then the article should reflect that. Botushali (talk) 06:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Only Muzaka has scholarly consensus of participating. Nobles such as Balsha has been explicitly denied to participate; (Malcolm, p.61, 1998). I respectfully request that editors refrain from selectively choosing sources and instead form their opinions on the basis of overall RS on this battle.  --Azor (talk). 07:12, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * That’s precisely why Balsha is not mentioned in the article. Nobody, not even Malcolm, has denied Muzaka or Jonima. Botushali (talk) 07:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * By studying the first source you used by Malcolm, that quote you used is not Malcolm's own words. He is simply quoting without necessarily agreeing with it. What Malcolm actually says is: . As I have said, leave cherry picking out of this. This is not how you win support for your view.  --Azor (talk). 09:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, Malcolm discusses Muzaka’s chronicle, which he says is most likely true. Now, how does the quote you pulled have anything to do with Muzaka and Jonima not being present and not being leaders of the Albanian forces? Nobody is saying that Muzaka and Jonima were as instrumental in the army composition as Lazar, Vuk or Vlatko - but RS bibliography still considers them to be noteworthy enough to be mentioned as leaders, as shown above. They are not ordinary participants, they were the leaders of principalities who gathered a number of men to join the Christian forces. Botushali (talk) 09:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Given your understanding of the primary groups being Lazar, Vuk, and Vlatko, I recommend that you review the quote from the Military conflict infobox. It may provide insight into why Wikipedia refrain from including each and every alleged leader in the infobox. --Azor (talk). 09:55, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Thing is, these leaders are not alleged. As Maleschreiber stated above:
 * Also, as per Template:Infobox military conflict: Botushali (talk) 11:45, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * None of the sources you have presented back the claim that they were commanders. They mention participation, but that's a totally different thing from being a commander. Being the head of a "large band" does not make one a "commander" of the battle. Thank you for confirming what I thought all along, that you don't have sources describing these individuals as commanders. Khirurg (talk) 16:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, as per Template:Infobox military conflict: Botushali (talk) 22:59, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, not a single source describing these individuals as "commanders" or even "leaders". Khirurg (talk) 00:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Exclusion It has already been mentioned that an infobox should contain three or four major groups on each side of the conflict. In addition to Malcom, Angelov also only mentions Lazar, Vuk and Vlatko as commanders and leaders. Muzaka and Jonima were leaders of their own units, but an absence of them being widely referred to as commanders or leaders would suggest that they didn't hold major leadership positions or were not seen as equal to Vuk or Vlatko. In modern terms, Lazar would be considered a Field marshal, Vuk and Vlatko would be considered General officers and Muzaka and Jonima considered Brigadiers. Given that Muzaka and Jonima aren't mentioned as significant leaders and given the limitations set out in the military conflict infobox, they should be removed from the infobox. ElderZamzam (talk) 11:47, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * An overview of some RS already cited in the article:
 * (Humphreys, 2013, p.64) Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
 * (Cox, 2002, p.29) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic (later)
 * (Emmert, 1991, p.3). Mentions: Lazar, Vlatko, Brankovic.
 * (Budak, 2001, 287) Mentions indirectly Lazar and Brankovic (Serbian army) and Vlatko. Including Ban John.
 * (Malcolm, 1998, p. 64-65). Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Vukovic. Nonetheless, Muzaka is also mentioned, but in contrast to the others, is given no military authority.
 * (Duijzings, 2000, p.185) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic
 * (Matthias, 1987, p.12) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic, Trvtko
 * (Fine, 1994, p.410) (p.409) Mentions: Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic. :--Azor (talk). 22:36, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * None of these quotes prove that either Muzaka or Jonima were not leaders of the Albanian forces. They were independent rulers of principalities who mustered a number of men and joined the coalition. They weren't regular officers or footmen. Botushali (talk) 22:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * This multitude of sources shows that the only commanders of the battle on the Serbian side were Lazar, Brankovic, and Vukovic. That's it. Khirurg (talk) 00:27, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The last quote deliberately says the army was split in three contingents under command of three leaders (Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic). There were no more than three leaders in that battle. This is so obvious to be a case of WP:IDHT.  --Azor (talk). 08:07, 9 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose Exclusion They are confirmed to have played a role in the battle. There are plenty of battles with many commanders listed. This does not have to be an exception. Lazar is already listed a level above them, so there is really no reason whatsoever to remove them. Çerçok (talk) 00:52, 9 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Support Exclusion While there is factual information that the Christian coalition was made up of three main contingents led by Lazar, Branković and Vuković, the scarcity of primary sources contemporary with the battle and the little information provided by later sources have never enabled historians to assert that Muzaka or Jonima had a leading role within this coalition. Nor is there any certainty that the latter was even present.
 * As I said in the previous RfC, while other allied contingents, including mercenaries or troops from other neighbouring kingdoms and principalities, were involved, there is no evidence that any Albanian or Hungarian lord headed his troops at the same level as the Serbian and Bosnian princes. Muzaka and Jonima (if the latter was indeed present) were most likely led by Lazar, as stated in the French book L'Europe et l’Islam : Quinze siècles d’histoire, from Laurens, Tolan and Veinstein (2009), page 134:
 * Le côté serbe était représenté par trois éléments au moins : le contingent du knez Lazar Hrebeljanović qui régnait alors sur la Serbie centrale et une partie du Kosovo oriental et dont l’armée incluait des éléments hongrois et albanais ; celui de Vuk Branković qui contrôlait la plus grande partie du Kosovo ; enfin, comme à Bileća, les troupes bosniaques de Tvertko étaient commandées par Vlatko Vuković.
 * Which translates to:
 * The Serbian side was represented by at least three elements: the contingent of the knez Lazar Hrebeljanović, who ruled central Serbia and part of eastern Kosovo at the time, and whose army included Hungarian and Albanian elements; that of Vuk Branković, who controlled most of Kosovo; finally, like in Bileća, Tvertko's Bosnian troops were commanded by Vlatko Vuković.
 * With this in mind, and considering the information from Template:Infobox military conflict which states that "When there is a large number of participants, it may be better to list only the three or four major groups on each side of the conflict", it seems pretty clear that Muzaka and Jonima should not appear in the infobox. Krisitor (talk) 09:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Exclude. Most sources, if not all, depict Lazar joining the battle alongside his allies Branković and Vuković from the Kingdom of Bosnia. While there is limited information on participants like Muzaka in Lazar's army, it is evident that they were not explicitly considered leaders in the battle. Although they were nobles, it appears they operated under the command of either Branković or Vuković. Notably, the infobox does not exclude them; they are already listed in the "Allied contingents" note along with other suggested ethnic groups participating. To address this, a potential solution could involve incorporating them into the note, like for example: "Albanians (such as Muzaka and Jonima), Bulgarians (...)." Ranko Nikolić (talk) 21:56, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I believe that's an excellent middle ground. This way, their names will be featured in the infobox, though in a separate section from Lazar, Brankovic, and Vukovic. In the future, if editors deem it necessary to provide more visibility to nobles from the seven other ethnic groups in Lazar's army, the current "Allied contingent" note can serve as a suitable space for their inclusion without the risk of disrupting the overall functionality of the infobox.
 * Sorry for the ping @Senorangel, but you were one of the few to provide a solution in this entire discussion, do you mind sharing your opinion on this one? --Azor (talk). 11:14, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ideally the article itself should describe how important Muzaka and Jonima were to the Albanian contingent. And how important Albanian and other ethnic armies were to the entire coalition effort. From there, it would form a basis for what the infobox mentions. I did not see that many details written about Muzaka and Jonima in the article, although there are many references indicated. A footnote for whatever ends up in the infobox could be the appropriate tool, depending on what more, if any, can be said about Muzaka, Jonima, and other allies in the body of the article. Senorangel (talk) 03:08, 11 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Exclude. Minor commanders should not be mentioned alongside three undisputed army leaders. 109.245.33.229 (talk) 13:30, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * An IP showing up of nowhere. Interesting. AlexBachmann (talk) 13:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose exclusion. there are various RS which state they were apart of the battle. Considering the significance of this battle for the life of the medieval prince and ruler Teodor Muzaka, in the fact that he was slain here, it is not just that he is excluded. Durraz0 (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

A (short-term) solution: As previously suggested, the approach of allowing their inclusion within the infobox while designating a separate location from the Commander section appears to be a fair solution. The footnote can serve as a temporary place for participants with limited information, allowing for their potential incorporation into the commander section as additional details gradually improve in the article over time. Per WP:DISCUSSCONSENSUS;. This approach extends to all participants, like for example Ban John, whose role as a "squadron leader" in Lazar's army is currently only found in a single source. --Azor (talk). 16:29, 12 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Ban John cannot be compared to Muzaka or Jonima (but especially Muzaka) who are discussed as leaders of the Albanian forces. They're not petty nobles, they are rulers of their own principalities. Botushali (talk) 00:16, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your passion in this discussion, but assuming that Muzaka is more fitting for that section than John is not something to automatically conclude. Presently, the best information we have on those two includes:
 * Malcolm has verified Muzaka's participation, stating that he likely brought men with him. However, this verification doesn't attribute any military authority to Muzaka in the battle or provide any other explanation of his role in the battle.
 * As for John of Palisna, there is a solitary source mentioning him leading a squadron in the battle. While this source attributes military authority to him, it is currently the only one mentioning this individual.
 * This is precisely why the temporary solution aims to provide us with the time needed to gradually enhance the article's details, as it's possible that there are additional sources available for Muzaka, Jonima, John, or other participants. That’s also why this RfC should keep going, regardless of the temporary movement within the infobox. --Azor (talk). 16:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * There are no "temporary solutions" here. You have initiated an RfC regarding the matter, so await the result and then changes can be made.
 * In regards to your first point, I have not "automatically concluded" that Muzaka is more fitting than John, that matter was concluded by WP:RS sources. I do not know if you are ignoring the dozen sources regarding Muzaka and Jonima on purpose or if you are legitimately that unaware of information that is currently on the article, but there are 12 sources on the article that mention Muzaka and Jonima as participants, many of them describing them as leaders of the Albanians. Malcolm is not on his own. The single source that mentions John of Palisna is indeed solitary and is the only one describing him as a leader compared to the 12 for Muzaka and Jonima collectively.
 * Muzaka and Jonima are listed under the "Leaders" subsection of the "Commanders and Leaders" part of the infobox. It's fitting, WP:RS sources describe them as leaders of the Albanian forces. Perhaps they did not command the main battle lines, but they are still considered leaders, which satisfies this section of Template:infobox military conflict (the same template which you have referred to multiple times to support your point): Botushali (talk) 23:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose exclusion: no Wikipedia policies and guidelines, nor reliable sources have been porvided to justify the removal of those figures from the infobox, so far I can only see unfounded personal opinions. Teodor II Muzaka and Dhimitër Jonima ruled over independent Albanian Principalities, and Albanian forces of the Christian army were led by them in this battle. They were among the major historical figures of the battle, and Teodor II Muzaka even died fighting there. Those are historical facts documentend in medieval sources, and supported in modern scholarship. Editors should provide reasonable arguments based on reliable sources for that removal. – Βατο (talk) 12:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Exclusion I am confused on why we exclusively highlight these Albanian nobles in the context of this battle, overlooking mentions of figures like Ban John, who is said to have brought men from Croatian lands to join Lazar. What about the nobles from the seven other ethnic groups said to participate in Lazar’s army? Where do we draw the line to whom we consider «leaders»? The infobox is designed for quick fact-checking, and I propose we draw the line at Lazar, Brankovic and Vukovic - just like overall RS do. Soundwaweserb (talk) 20:18, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Exclusion Only three Commanders and Leaders are mentioned by every single source: Lazar, Vuk Branković and Vlatko Vuković. If Jonima and Muzaka were present they were under Vuković with the other foreign contingents. “The foreign contingents were gathered on the left, under Vlatko Vuković.” (Malcolm 64-65) The fact that their presence is disputed, or not even mentioned, should exclude them from the Commanders and Leaders section of the infobox. Aeengath (talk) 14:49, 27 November 2023 (UTC) edited Aeengath (talk) 17:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Oppose Exclusion: There are enough reliable sources to keep them in the infobox.HokutoKen (talk) 15:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Support Exclusion: A preponderous of reliable sources are required to retain this (evidently quite controversial) assertion, and the quantity of said sources is clearly not sufficient to warrant making such a claim (in WP:WIKIVOICE, no less). Amanuensis Balkanicus (talk) 03:19, 5 January 2024 (UTC)


 * I've requested closure for this at Closure requests. --Azor (talk) 22:19, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Belligerents
As the previous RfC highlighted; infoboxes are designed for quick fact-checking. Thus, the inclusion of the belligerents itself bear the same exact issue by violating MOS:INFOBOX: keep in mind the purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article. This issue centers around: the Knights Hospitaller, Principality of Muzaka, and Jonima Family, which all has considerably low scholarly consensus, as reflected in the article's lack of overall coverage on their involvement.

The belligerents' inclusion to the infobox stemmed from the incorporation of their leader, a decision which the latest RfC demonstrated to be a mistake. Edit history shows that neither the inclusions of the belligerents nor their leaders were backed by overall RS/consensus among editors. Additionally, conflicting information from RS adds to their lack of credibility: ''Lazar sought aid from his neighbors Tvtrko and Vuk Brankovic. Trtvko sendt a large contigent under the command of Vlatko Vukovic. Vuk Brankovic came himself, leading his own men. Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these three leaders, none of whom was then a Turkish vassal. (John V. A. Fine, p. 409).'' I trust that the previous RfC provided valuable insights into relevant guidelines for all involved editors, with the hope of preventing yet another RfC about the article's infobox. --Azor (talk). 21:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The RfC was about the commanders section, not the belligerents section. You can file a discussion at RfC about changes to the current version.--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:10, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 April 2024
There is no source or evidence that Principality of Muzaka and Jonima Family participated in the Battle. Nikolaass31 (talk) 19:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Hi, @Nikolaass31. That statement is not entirely accurate. The article does include sources that mention member(s) of the Muzaka and Jonima families participating. However, these sources constitute only a small portion of the overall reliable sources cited in the article. It is therefore understandable that you question their verifiability. Whether that is enough to have them removed from the infobox is up for debate. --Azor (talk). 20:17, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * You make it appear that there’s sources disputing the presence of all Albanian lords, which are - surprisingly - nonexistent.
 * It is therefore understandable that you question their verifiability is not what he said, and you know that. Maleschreiber said everything that needs to be said. The request for change will naturally be overruled because #1, the request itself is a false statement; #2, sources haven’t been presented but rather disregarded; #3, the request is vaguely formulated.
 * Hope that helps. AlexBachmann (talk) 20:48, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The request for change is denied as no objections or further statements have been heard from participating users. Even if further arguments are made, those ought to be reviewed in an RFC, as it has been done in previous instances. AlexBachmann (talk) 23:52, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The historians
The "inconclusive" part's sources are all christian european borned historians'.The best Ottoman historian, Halil İnalcık says its a pirus win of Ottomans just because the after events. Also, the killed in action is not true, it is assasination by Milos Obilic in most of the sources. Also, Prince Jacob(Shahzade Yakup, the Çelebi) choked because of the new reign and risk of the civil war. Furkanberk52 (talk) 11:57, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

RfC Should Jonima family and Principality of Muzaka be included in the infobox?
Jonima family and Principality of Muzaka are listed in the infobox section "Belligerents". Should they continue to stay there?

--Azor (talk). 19:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * 1) Keep both
 * 2) Keep X, exclude Y
 * 3) Exclude both.

3. Exclude both.The inclusion of "Jonima family" and "Principality of Muzaka" in the infobox raise several issues.

1. Limited presentation

All sources in the article consistently identify Moravian Serbia (under Lazar), supported by the District of Branković (Vuk Branković) and the Kingdom of Bosnia (Vlatko Vuković, sent by King Tvrtko) as the primary belligerents. Most of the sources focus solely on these belligerents, as evident in the following examples


 * "Lazar commanded the Serbs (p.409). The Bosnians fought as well, as did Vuk Brankovic. At the end of the battle, (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar and Brankovic) and Bosnian (Vukovic) troops withdrew. (p.410) Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders. (p.409)"


 * "On 28 June 1389 the combined Serbian forces from the territories governed by Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad and his army on the field of Kosovo"


 * "Upon recieving news of his [Murad's] approach, Prince Lazar, Vuk Brankovic, on whose land the battle was fought, and King Tvrtko, who sent a large unit under the command of Vlatko Vukovic, joined forces."

These sources do not mention any other belligerents or possible ethnic groups in Lazar's army. Additional examples can be provided if necessary during the RfC.

2. Doubts Regarding Credibility and Verification


 * In this source, using non-Ottoman primary sources (see the Comment below), the author Malcolm is theorizing about other ethnic groups in Lazar's army; Albanians: "An early-sixteenth-century family history of an Albanian noble family, the Muzaka (or 'Musachi'), records that Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with ‘other Albanian lords’, and that he was killed in the battle. Many of the other details in this memoir are verifiably accurate, so this claim may well be trustworthy too " and Hungarians; "The participation of Hungarians seems especially likely, given that Lazar had long had close relations with his northern neighbours and had married one of his daughters to a Hungarian nobleman." While the author provides some information about the involvement of Albanians and Hungarians in Lazar's army, there is uncertainty and speculation surrounding their participation. For instance, the claim that Teodor Muzaka brought a large band of Albanians to join Lazar's army lacks verifiability, as stated by the author himself. Additionally, the source fails to inform the reader whether the principality itself participated in the war or if the Albanians originated from Muzaka's domain. As a result, selectively identifying specific belligerents from this information would constitute original research. The author presecedes to end the paragraph with "But the main components of his [Lazar] force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.".

3. Breaches of infobox guidelines

The inclusion of the two Albanian belligerents in the infobox lacks necessary context, scholarly consensus, credibility, and affirmation. While the author Malcolm speculates about Muzaka's participation, there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that the entire principality participated. Furthermore, none other belligerents, except those of Lazar, Branković, and Vuković, provide concrete information about their actual involvement in the battle or the aftermath of their participation. The inclusion of Jonima family and the Principality of Muzaka in the infobox is clearly original research and does not enhance understanding and raises more questions than answers for the readers of the article. Overall, this breaches the infobox military conflict guidelines:


 * Information in the infobox should not be "controversial". Refer the reader to an appropriate section in the article or leave the parameter blank rather than make an unsubstantiated or doubtful claim


 * (..) in smaller ones [belligerents] (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding.

Comment: Several sources referenced in this article draw from Ottoman primary sources. However, scholars like Malcolm and John Fine within this work have raised doubts about the reliability of such sources:


 * Malcolm : "The earliest Ottoman accounts, written in the fifteenth century, do refer to Albanians in Lazar's army; they also list many other ethnic components. One refers to mercenaries from Serbia, Albania, Bosnia and Hungary; another adds to that list soldiers from Wallachia, and Bulgarians, Czechs and 'Franks'" "But on the other hand the Ottoman writers were evidently eager to build up the size and significance of Lazar's army, which they described as vastly outnumbering Murat's, in order to add to the glory of the Turkish victory. (..)  Albanian history books claim that Balsha also took part and this is almost certainly false. The only basis for this claim is the account of the early Ottoman historian Nesri (..) These Ottoman claims are not to be trusted." John Fine : "This account by Mehmed Nesri, however, would become the major resource for subsequent descriptions of the battle, not only in the Ottoman world but in Western Europe as well. (..) He clearly intended to describe a significant Ottoman victory at Kosovo and thus exaggerated much of his narrative in order to magnify the success of the Turks." p.10'.


 * This becomes an issue when these belligerents are included in the infobox solely due to misinformation:" Based on Ottoman sources, attributes to the Albanian leaders Balsha, Jonima and Muzaka an organized Albanian contingent as numerous as one-forth of the entire Balkan coalition" . Please retain from using sources which might be based on these disputable Ottoman sources. --Azor(talk) 21:31, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: The RfC uses a question which doesn't have a functional meaning. The question should be Should Jonima/Muzaka be excluded from the infobox?' because they are already part of the infobox and the RfC was filed in order to change the current status of the article. Discussion can't start if the RfC question is malformed.--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:58, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
 * "Should" appropriately indicates a question of necessity or appropriateness; it does not deny something's existence. This wording is similar to the previous RfC because its inclusion is also the result of edit warring among editors. Therefore, the question asks if it should continue to be included. --Azor (talk). 20:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Draw in military terms..
Battle is considered draw in military terms but it drained Serbia, more than Ottomans, politically for long time. -LjupceLubek 37.223.156.232 (talk) 17:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)