Talk:Battle of Mikatagahara

Merging
I moved Battle of Mikata ga Hara to this page to match the naming conventions used in the spelling of other places and battles (eg. Battle of Sekigahara). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Douggers (talk • contribs) 01:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

A Question
on the other sites it says that the battle of mikatagahara was fought on january 6th, and I'm sure that it was written here too but now suddenly it is january 25th. :S —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.100.106 (talk) 22:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Defeat?
So according to this article Tokugawa was outnumbered three to one, and he was facing one of the most powerful warlords of the era. Then, in less than one day, he was able to drive out the attacking force and hold the castle they had come to take. How exactly is this a defeat for Tokugawa? I have noticed a tendency to downplay the life and abilities of Tokugawa in post Meiji Restoration histories, I think this article might also be suffering from that bias. Colincbn (talk) 03:08, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

The army he had with him was anhillated. Many of his generals and top staff were killed. He very narrowly avoided his own death. He began the battle with thousands of troops, yet made it back to the caste with just five men. After the battle, he survived mostly due to luck. He gambled on attempting to bluff that he had more strength then he did. If the Takeda forces had attempted to take the castle, they would have met minimal resistance and captured or killed Ieyasu. Ieyasu and his forces were clever in keeping the castle open and then harassing the pursuing Takeda. They lacked the strength to do real damage or resist a Takeda attack, but the Takeda forces were cautious to a fault and decided to retreat rather than press on in their pursuit. Ieyasu was very lucky the Takeda were so wary and not eager to press their advantage and continue fighting.

This battle is widely considered the worst defeat of Ieyasu's military career. He was able to recover from it, but he survived by the skin of his teeth. It was almost the end of his career and his life. It was a great influence on him, and he later absorbed many Takeda ideas and personnel into his organizations.

It was definitely not a victory for Ieyasu. This is not to say Ieyasu wasn't great and wildly successful. He was the biggest winner in Japanese history. But even the great ones make missteps, and in battle one can quickly lose everything. This was also a major victory for Takeda Shingen. At least for his reputation, as it didn't drastically change the standing of his clan and he died very shortly afterward. But there's little shame in being defeated by arguably the most experienced and skilled daimyo in Japan, with arguably the strongest army and by reputation the best cavalry. He had much more experience, and it was experience at the most sophisticated and highest level of samurai warfare.

It's relevant to note that Takeda Shingen's great rival Uesugi Kenshin also triumphed over Oda forces at the battle of Tedorigawa, also indecisively. The record suggests that through their complex, repeated, and militarily brilliant battles at Kawanakajima and elsewhere, the Takeda and Uesugi forces had become very highly skilled in comparison to most of their competition. Few daimyo were a grave threat to the Oda, but under Shingen and Kenshin the Takeda and Uesugi seemed more challenged by one another than anyone else, as they handily defeated strong Oda and Tokugawa armies under highly successful generals. The deaths of Shingen and Kenshin removed the only daimyo who appeared to have the strength to defeat Oda and his allies, and statements from them acknowledge this. Had Shingen and Kenshin not died their untimely deaths, it's not difficult to imagine a Takeda or Uesugi daimyo could have become regent or shogun.

So Ieyasu was great, but he was not yet at the height of his power and he learned some key humility from his great defeat at the hands of a more experienced and powerful daimyo at the summit of samurai leadership ability. It's not anti-Tokugawa bias to note that Tokugawa Ieyasu suffered a defeat that eliminated an entire army and was almost utterly catastrophic. This was the only such defeat of Ieyasu in a lifetime filled with major battles. He's human and his weaknesses and blinders shouldn't be ignored. This major defeat played a major role in making him great. He rebounded from it and took the right lessons to heart, and didn't let himself get so outmatched again. Ieyasu had been lucky to survive. There were several occasions after the battle of Mikatagahara turned against him where Ieyasu was about to lose his life, and probably would have if not for exceptional service rendered to him by his men who repeatedly rescued him from disaster. He almost charged back into the battle in what would have very likely been a suicidal attack, before being convinced to try to flee. He lost close vassals in the retreat.

When your entire army of thousands of men is killed or routed, and you barely survive in an almost undefended castle merely by ploys and luck that the enemy isn't inclined to attack, knowing they could easily take the castle at any moment, it's a resounding defeat. Ieyasu was left helpless and with no way to escape. His army was gone and all he could do was pray. The Takeda absolutely won the battle. Ieyasu himself certainly knew the score. 2603:7000:903C:FF00:B909:1737:AF5C:6776 (talk) 14:55, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Major update needed
I have been doing a fairly large amount of research into this time period (for work related reasons) and specifically into Tokugawa's life. During this process I have found several articles like this that seem to leave out (or even contradict) many important points that are brought up in the peer reviewed histories I have been using. As such I plan on adding these sections to several articles, adding the references of course, and removing unreferenced contradictory claims. I would love to get help from anyone with a deeper knowledge of the events. Cheers, Colincbn (talk) 02:05, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Background doesn't cover much ...
The political situation between opposing daimyo should have a pre-quel type summary here. Instead, the section just jumps into the military aims of the generals. HammerFilmFan (talk) 04:41, 25 January 2020 (UTC)