Talk:Battle of Mogadishu (1993)/Archive 6

Extraction
While all US action is presented in high detail I wonder why the same is not possible for the extraction. While the names of the US casulties are given there's only a "Malaysian forces lost one soldier" without any further details. It's almost as if these troops didn't participate in the "real" fight. I wonder if they had the same impression. I think their rescue action deserves the same level of accuracy and respect as the strangly unprofessional (IMHO) original assault. 84.186.159.164 (talk) 14:46, 18 December 2012 (UTC) JB.

Howard E. Wasdin's role.
why does this article doesn't have anything on Wasdin's role. user:Roguewarrior23 —Preceding undated comment added 02:38, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

"Casualties" misuse in intro section.
FYI, I changed "casualties" to "killed" in the following sentence fragment in the intro: "SNA forces claim only 315 casualties, with 812 wounded." This is obviously mistaken, since the number of casualties (which means aggregate of KOA, wounded, POWs and MIA) cannot be less than the number of wounded. The body of the article stated 315 killed, so I simply changed it in the intro to a) make sense and b) make it consistent with the rest of the article.

Ciao Isoruku (talk) 20:37, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

As a matter of style ...
Hi,

The wording in the lede "The battle resulted in 18 deaths, 80 wounded /..../ American sources estimate between 1,500 and 3,000 Somali casualties..." reads like there is a difference between deaths (US) and casualties (Somali). Doesn't a battle result in X casualties, of which Y are from Party 1 and Z from Party 2? OR ... "The battle resulted in 18 US deaths..." etc.? Just to avoid the impression that "US deaths are deaths per se; the rest is story color". Just saying.

T 83.109.182.29 (talk) 00:33, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Links
>> us sends military advisors back to somalia(Lihaas (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)).

Another documentary
I added the Black Ops documentary, but ask me about finding a reference. I'm actually watching it right now on my DVR. I couldn't find even a mention at the official site, but I did find a Google cached page of the TV schedule the week it aired. I don't know how long that cached page will be available, but I used that. It's not a fancy perfect reference like all the others that were painstakingly crafted and look beautiful, but it's your standard URL, so... I just left it an ugly URL. Sorry about that but there was no fancying that up. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 05:31, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

What happened to the 533rd Transportation drivers driving the trucks?????
Irritated that the 533d Transportation Company out of Benning is never mentioned. They are the ones driving the trucks during this operation. Oddly enough Rangers don't do trucks.
 * If you're irritated, then write it up. Keep in mind that drivers don't get glory. It's the ones that fought in the battle that are credited. I know in this instance the drivers were essential, but that's just the way it is. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 05:32, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Tactical U.S victory
The article does not explain how the U.S won a 'tactical' victory. In fact, I would say that tactically the U.S lost to the SNA as well, unless the tactic was to strengthen Al-Qaida and be attacked on their own soil a few years later.

Unless someone can explain in the article how the U.S won a 'tactical' victory in Somalia, I think we should be a little more honest and remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.246.232.41 (talk) 20:03, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
 * We took the men we went in for. MagnoliaSouth (talk) 05:34, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Lost Convoy
In the listed casualties there are five mentions of "the lost convoy" but nowhere in the page can any elaboration be found which section of the U.N. forces are considered as such. 2001:982:E598:1:C10D:5256:E47F:6BD4 (talk) 07:54, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Army Aviation Fights at Night
"Repeated attempts by the Somalis to mass forces and overrun the American positions in a series of firefights near the first crash site were neutralized by aggressive small arms fire and by strafing runs and rocket attacks from AH-6J Little Bird helicopter gunships of the Nightstalkers, the only air unit equipped and trained for night fighting."

This paragraph implies that TF-160 (NightStalkers) are the only Army Aviation unit trained and equipped to fight at night. The NightStalkers are not the only Army Aviation unit trained and equipped to fight at night. EVERY Army Aviation combat and combat support unit is trained and equipped (either with NVG or NVS) to fight at night. In fact, that is the preferred time of day to conduct operations, no matter whether it's TF160 or any other combat aviation unit.

I suggest you delete the last phrase of that sentence. Even if it is technically correct assuming they were the only unit present capable of night operations, it's irrelevant and misleading, because night fighting is the norm, not the exception for Army Aviation.

I don't intend to marginalize what TF-160 does. They are the best of the best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.195.0.115 (talk) 03:51, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

president is incorrect
This article claims that George H W Bush was president during black hawk down but it was Clinton. 72.201.48.246 (talk) 01:04, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
 * You misunderstood. Read again. Rob1bureau (talk) 19:54, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Casulties and loses
1500-2000 deaths..where you got this numbers???

Whenever US soldiers are involved in some shooting we have always same problem. Somebody form american side shout "3000 enemy deaths" or "10,000 deaths"...and suddenly that number become official.

I honestly think that those claims don't have any reability and all and need to be removed.

Question: Why is Matt Rierson listed as a casualty of 3/75, when he was in C Squadron, 1st SFOD-D at time? Somebody please correct this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.55.232.10 (talk) 17:34, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

Confusing terminology
In the section titled: "Policy changes and political implications" the events of the battle are described multiple times as "black hawk down". This is not in line with the terminology used in the rest of the article and seems to be inspired by the movie of the same name. Oh, and there is still no reference to the lost convoy as mentioned earlier. 80.101.39.252 (talk) 21:09, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Ranger McCabdulahi12 (talk) 17:51, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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Lost Convoy
The [U.S. casualty section] refers to the "Lost Convoy" but the term is never used in the rest of the article. Is this the ground-extraction convoy commanded by McKnight? I was going to add an explanatory edit to the effect of "because the convoy got lost, it has been nicknamed "the Lost Convoy." But this article never says it was lost, only delayed. The description in [] mentions a wrong turn at 16:35, but that fact is not reflected in this article. The [Plan] section mentions the convoy was delayed, but shouldn't the sections titled First Black Hawk Shot Down or Second Black Hawk Shot Down mention that the convoy was attacked? Mdmcginn (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Broken infobox
It looks like the infobox is broken for this page. I personally don't know how to edit these. It looks like it's missing a end bracket somewhere — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2603:900A:706:D300:30DA:12E7:7715:7DE6 (talk) 19:03, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 December 2021
Darkflame471 (talk) 08:54, 10 December 2021 (UTC) Israel lost
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ◢  Ganbaruby!   (talk) 09:23, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Pyrrhic
What part of the MOS says we can't use "pyrrhic" in infoboxes? CaptainEek Edits Ho Cap'n!⚓ 19:14, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Template:Infobox military conflict - "Do not introduce non-standard terms like "decisive", "marginal" or "tactical", or contradictory statements like "decisive tactical victory but strategic defeat". Omit this parameter altogether rather than engage in speculation about which side won or by how much." Loafiewa (talk) 19:43, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

How come multiple pages I have seen on Wikipedia use those terms? For example, the page on the Tet Offensive has a infobox result that says it was a "South Vietnamese-American tactical victory, North Vietnamese/Viet Cong propaganda, political and strategic victory" DiSantis19  15:17, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2022
This was the first time M-1 Abrams tanks were delivered by air, using the C-5 Galaxies, which delivered 18 M-1 tanks and 44 Bradley infantry vehicles,[87] while the balance of Task Force Rogues equipment and vehicles were delivered via a roll-on/roll-off ship sent from Fort Stewart (Garden City), Georgia, to Mogadishu to provide armored support for U.S. forces.

Fort Stewart is located near the metropolitan area of Hinesville, Georgia, not Garden City, Georgia. Garden City should be charged to Hinesville. ANS6966 (talk) 23:51, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅. Heartmusic678 (talk) 12:40, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Bloody Sunday attack
Hello, I added the information on what in Somalia is known as the Bloody Sunday attack. The information was properly sourced. The bulk of it was then removed rather than edited. I reverted it back. In the interests of avoiding an edit war, I would like to discuss the section here. Thank you. AmplifyWiki (talk) 19:03, 25 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Thank you. The Battle of Mogadishu cannot be understood without including the Bloody Sunday attack. However, the information is incomplete, as it says nothing about the motive for the attack. Mark Bowden's account states that the attack was instigated by the United Nations leadership. True? Tfdavisatsnetnet (talk) 21:25, 8 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Yes and no. It was UNOSOM II leadership, which the U.S. was a major part of (and all troops involved in the raid were American). Also the raid was authorized by the White House, the Pentagon and even the U.N. Sectary General himself if I remember correctly (by the way Bloody Monday not Sunday). Whoopsawa (talk) 17:28, 20 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Does a dailybeast article from 27 years after the original incident that intonates an ongoing war crime cover-up based on claims of a anonymous source constitute reasonable facts with respect to a highly politicized event? I would think there would be sufficient evidence after 27 years from credible sources that do not use stock photography as their main image. Similarly, a war reporter who wrote a book 17 years after the even constitutes fact or evidence? While I do not claim to know any material facts about this raid, I find most of the citations on this article to be questionable and provide an indication of potential bias and not truth. I guess that's on par with wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.163.137.104 (talk) 11:32, 27 May 2020 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what book that's made "17 years after" you are referring to. A significant source for the raid from, "Me Against My Brother" by American war correspondent Scott Peterson, was published in 2000, 7 years later. He is a first hand account who was directly on the scene of the attack. Not to mention he then interviewed many Somali's immediately after and years later when he returned to Mogadishu in 1998. If you are referring to Mark Bowden, his work was only 5 years after the raid. The raid has it's own page now with other sources. Whoopsawa (talk) 22:40, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 April 2022
"Hunt for Aidid begins

Aidids political organization, the S.N.A, had begun to broadcast anti-U.N. propaganda on Radio Mogadishu after coming to the belief that the U.N, and its Sectary General Boutrous Ghali"

Change Sectary to Secretary LeofinAnaras (talk) 14:59, 5 April 2022 (UTC)


 * ✅. Loafiewa (talk) 15:03, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Armed civilians?
It's like you're not trying to even be taken seriously anymore. 208.98.223.80 (talk) 14:32, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

al-Qaeda Presence
The article now says: “Rumors suggest that al-Qaeda fighters in Somalia included the organization's military chief, Mohammed Atef, who was later killed by U.S. forces in Afghanistan.”

The sources indicate that al-Qaeda fighers were at least present during the battle (I don't know what Cabdishakur Mire Aadan is writing though).

And Mohammed Atef/Abu Hafs seems to have been there as well (even though not participating in the battle).

p. 279:

And Ali Soufan is writing they were directly involved (but seems to be the only one but as a former FBI agent has some weight).

p. 345:

See also

So I would suggest to change it like following:

“Al-Qaeda fighters including the organization's military chief Mohammed Atef were present during the battle but it is unlikely they actively participated. Former FBI agent Ali Soufan claimed al-Qaeda operative Zachariah al-Tunisi fired an RPG that downed a Black Hawk helicopter. Both were later killed in an airstrike in Afghanistan in November 2001. This claim has been firmly disputed by both independent and Aidid affiliated Somali accounts.”

Another sources saying it's unlikely that al-Qaeda directly particpated in the battle are Jason Burke and Jonathan Randal.

And more arguments on pages 148–150.

--Jo1971 (talk) 12:56, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

White supremacist edits
"They inflicted heavy casualties on the approaching Somali mob."

This is un-cited. It's also absolutely racist.

The Somali combatants had legitimate political interests to fight for, they knew eachother, and they knew their enemy. This is not a "mob"

Unless the racist commentary is meant to imply that the US military men were killing civilians preemptively. Which I don't think is the point, considering the terrible POV conflict.

Seriously, this reads like a debunked Pentagon briefing. Pages like this make me want to learn a different language, so I'm not stuck with all this anglo-propaganda.

Americans shouldn't even be in Africa. But this is a play-by-play for the Rambo aficionados. Absolutely disgusting culture. 2601:5C4:200:5C40:DCCB:2867:3108:2B71 (talk) 22:40, 26 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The section has been rectified. Whoopsawa (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2022 (UTC)
 * This reads like a Somali angry someone he knew died 2601:545:8001:8FE0:2D74:6758:D6EA:30E4 (talk) 00:00, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The combat was not platoon on platoon or company on company. The militia was not organized into a way that clear chain of command, roles, or obligations. Oxford's definition of a mob is "a large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence." The group picked up more fighters and people as they moved towards broad areas where Americans were thought to be without falling into any chain of command as on can see in videos taken by the Somalis. Mob is a correct definition of this grouping. One can know people, have a reason for doing what they do, and know who they wish to fight and be in a mob. You are implying some kind of racists connotation. Not anyone else. 192.223.236.250 (talk) 14:24, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Fort Rucker is now Fort Novosel
The article mentions that a fully restored Super Six Eight is on display at Fort Rucker, but as of April 10, 2023 the name has officially been changed to Fort Novosel. https://www.wtvy.com/2023/04/10/fort-rucker-officially-renamed-fort-novosel/ 69.73.84.101 (talk) 23:37, 21 October 2023 (UTC)