Talk:Battle of Mohács (1687)

The "Real" strength
I have been studying this battle for months, through many European and Turkish history books, I have also asked experienced people. It was very hard to come with a 100% reliable conclusion, but now I finally finished it. The Ottomans tried with a supreme stradegy, but the mercenaries were unmotivated and unexperienced. Suleyman Pasha and his 800 Turkish Elite managed to damage the centre of the army, but that didn´t make any advantage for them, since the army at it´s whole was unstable. Read the whole article, if you want to know the real fact.

Factual errors and highly biased tone and style
This article had many important real factual errors. It contains a funny sort of non-real reality! One such an absurd and laughablen factual error is the appearance of Mamelukes, who were supposed to be in Egypt!!! Another non-factual howler was that Sari Suleyman Pasa was killed in this battle. Instead of being a factual and non-neutral reporting of actually what happened, there is a highly charged crusader style of expression, with infidel Turks being defeated by Christian knights and men-on-horseback||. It was an example of how any real history should NOT be written, let alone a non-neutral Wiki style history!! No wonder the word "Real" above is in quotation marks. Noyder (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Someone needs to get a copy of Chandler's, A Guide to the Battlefields of Europe, and find out if even half the information in this article is even sourced by that book. The 2 references I have, give little information concerning troop amounts or any in depth information concerning the battle, except that "the Turks were decisively defeated". I removed the error of Suleyman Pasa begin killed in the battle. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Mamelukes are found in Egypt not in Ottoman army!! If you would tick on the word mameluke you will see clearly and indubitably that this term is grossly erroneous. If Chandler had use that term, then his reference is wrong and unreliable. Ottoman army was never ever divided into Mamelukes, Balkan Mercenaries and Ottoman Turks. I have deleted this wrong reference and will correct such a gross error in the future. This error is only made in Hungarian, Romanian, Portugese and English Vikipedia articles on this topic and the others do not make that error. Noyder (talk) 13:06, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The bias runs both ways. Consider this from the article: "There was a systematic ethnic cleansing (killings, forced expulsions, etc.) of the very large number of Muslims who had lived peacefully with neighbours in Hungary, Transylvania and Slovenia." If indeed Muslims were living peacefully there, it is because they were in a position of power, having previously, in history, ethnically cleansed Christians, who were, in fact, there first. Am I mistaken? Cutugno (talk) 01:13, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Expansion of the article
I have changed and expanded this article using the article in German Wikipedia as the basis and I have added some parts from a history of Ottoman Empire. I feel that the previous version, using what I suspect Hungarian-Romanian Wikipedia as basis, having very biased wording (such as Christians stopping the Turks, mameluk Ottoman army etc.) with many factual errors (Mameluks, funny classification of Ottoman army parts,  Suleyman Pasa being killed, unbelievable numbers of causalities etc.) and having little detail especially of the background and the aftermath,  was inadequate. The German version (being the language of one of the sides) and with additions from the reputable Ottoman history sources make this article richer, more informative and neutral in tone and content. Noyder (talk) 19:34, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Battle Location?!?!?!?
The article gives the location of the battle as: "15 miles south-west of Mohács, on the River Danube, modern day Hungary". This is geographically impossible, even if the course of the Danube changed dramatically via meandering over the past 324 years. The Danube runs (upstream) north-northeast from Mohács and (downstream) south-southeast from Mohács. 15 miles south-west of Mohacs would be closer to the River Drava, but still arguably 10 miles north-east that watercourse.

After the seeming impasse at Osijek, Grand Vizier Sari Süleyman Paşa maneuvered or skillfully forced Charles' army "downriver to the locality of Mohács towards the Ottoman fortified position". For the first half of the description we have, again, a geographical impossibility, as downriver from Osijek (to the south-east, ~12 miles) is the confluence with the Danube, from which it is another 33 miles (as the crow flies) or 40+ miles in the river valley proper upstream to Mohács. As for the second half of the description ("towards the Ottoman fortified position"), what fortified poistion? The article throws in Darda as being another fortified Ottoman position, but that is completely in the wrong direction. Darda is roughly 4.5 miles almost due north of Osijek and in no way downstream of Osijek. So where was this "fortified Ottoman position" that Pasa forced Charles toward?

The one possibility that I can offer on this point is that Darda is clearly within the meander plain (Google Earth) of the Drava, and it is possible that in 1687 the river's course was such that it flowed downstream from Osijek to Drava before turning back to the southeast to merge with the Danube 12 miles away. It is even possible that, bearing in mind the meander plain of the Danube (again via Google Earth), the confluence of the two rivers could have been a mere 6 miles southeast of Darda and ~5.5 miles east-northeast of Osijek.

The article continues, "... the Duke of Lorraine decided to move to Siklós...", 37 miles northwest of the current confluence of the Danube and Drava and 28 miles from the my suggested locale for the possible confluence in 1687. The question remains, from where did he move his army? Somewhere down the Drava, or cross-country from the Danube south of Mohács?

The only real clue the article gives is that, during the battle, "The Ottoman cavalry riders could not outflank because the terrain was difficult for their horses." This usually means one of two things. Either the terrain was so wet and muddy, the horses sunk deeply in the mud, meaning wetland or lowland country, or the terrain was rocky, mountainous or laden with talus. If the former (the lowlands theory), then the battle site is likely in the Drava meander plain somewhere between Darda and Siklós or in the Danube meander plain somewhere between Darda and Mohács (neither could be construed to be 15 miles south-west of Mohács). The old map included as part of the German Wikipedia article suggests a near-water locale. If the latter (highlands theory), the only place where there appears to be such terrain is in the Villány Mountains, which are almost spot-on with the description of being 15 miles south-west of Mohács. However, the Villány Mountains are roughly 15 miles at its nearest point of the Danube meander plain.

The German Wikipedia article also gives the locale as "Harsány nahe Mohács in Ungarn" (Harsány near Mohács in Hungary). English Wikipedia does not give a Lat/Long for Harsány, but the German site gives 47.96972222 N, 44.34055556 E. This places us 50 miles south of Volgograd, Russia. Don't think so. Google earth gives on its own two possibilities: Harsány, Bácsbokod and Villányi-hegység, Siklós. The first is a non-location (no city, no village, just a "mountain icon" with no rise in topography - great) located at 46.166667° N,  19.166667° E.  This is 26 miles northeast of Mohács (and 10 miles east of its nearest larger municipality, Baja), and there is nothing to suggest this site as meeting the prerequisite of difficulty for cavalry horses. The second choice has no suggestion of Harsány in the name, but the Siklos part sounds promising. It, also a "mountain icon" is located at 45.883333° N,  18.333333° E, a mere 2.75 miles north-northeast of Siklos, and 18 miles southwest of Mohács, and smack in the middle of the south slopes of the Villány Mountains.

It is worth noting that, based on the old meander plain of the Drava, Siklos could have been on the banks of the Drava in 1687. This would coincide with the apparent water shown onthe old map on the German Wikipedia site.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.


 * The current version of the article says the Ottoman cavalry had to dismount because the terrain was steep. This might give us some idea of the location. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.127.214 (talk) 15:10, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The site of the 1526 battle is better known. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.127.214 (talk) 15:14, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * A dense forest is mentioned. It might not still be there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.127.214 (talk) 15:20, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Nagyharsany is about 20 kilometers from Mohacs — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.175.127.214 (talk) 15:29, 20 July 2018 (UTC)