Talk:Battle of New Carthage

Mago Barca
In this article it says Opposing him were the three Carthaginian generals (Hasdrubal Barca, Mago and Hasdrubal Gisco), who were on bad terms with each other, geographically scattered (Hasdrubal Barca in central Spain, Mago near Gibraltar and Hasdrubal near the mouth of the Tagus river), and at least 10 days away from New Carthage. However in Livy 26.44 it reads: When Mago, the Carthaginian commander, saw that an attack was being prepared both by land and sea, he made the following disposition of his forces. From Livy's description it sounds to me as if Mago is in the city of New Carthage defending it - not some 10 days away! Am I misinterpreting one description or the other? Was Mago Barca at New Carthage or 10 days away near Gibraltar?--Doug Coldwell talk 12:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

In Livy 26.46 it goes on to say: From this point Scipio saw the enemy retreating in two directions; one body was making for a hill to the east of the city, which was being held by a detachment of 500 men; the others were going to the citadel where Mago, together with the men who had been driven from the walls, had taken refuge.--Doug Coldwell talk 12:35, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Polybius says in Book 10.12 ''Mago, who was in command of the place, divided his regiment of a thousand men into two, leaving half of them on the citadel and stationing the others on the eastern hill. '' So, it appears to me that Mago was in fact at New Carthage and was in charge - not some 10 days away.--Doug Coldwell talk 19:44, 23 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Polybius says in Book 10.7.4&5 concerning Scipio Africanus's arrival to Spain: For on his arrival in Spain he set everyone on the alert and inquired from everyone about the circumstances of the enemy, and thus learnt that the Carthaginian forces were divided into three bodies. Mago, he heard, was posted on this side of the pillars of Hercules in the country of the people called Conii; Hasdrubal, son of Gesco, was in Lusitania near the mouth of the Tagus; and the other Hasdrubal was besieging a city in the territory of the Carpetani: none of them being within less than ten days' march from New Carthage. However Polybius later says in Book 10.12.2 when Scipio circled New Carthage: Mago, who was in command of the place, divided his regiment of a thousand men into two, leaving half of them on the citadel and stationing the others on the eastern hill. How did Mago make it back to New Carthage if Scipio had it surrounded?--Doug Coldwell talk 12:02, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Reading Livy and Polybius, it seems that neither Scipio nor Mago were near Cartagena when Scipio decided to attack it, so maybe Mago had enough time to get there before Scipio did. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:15, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Good thought Adam, however this appears not to be true according to Livy 26.42 No one knew of his intended march (on New Carthage) except C. Laelius, who was sent round with his fleet and instructed to regulate the pace of his vessels so that he might enter the harbour at the same time that the army showed itself. Seven days after leaving the Ebro, the land and sea forces reached New Carthage simultaneously. A few lines before this Livy talks of the 3 Carthaginian generals being in 3 different parts of Spain - some 10 days away from New Carthage. It was a secret mission that the 3 Carthaginian generals knew nothing about. Assuming Mago found out of Scipio's secret mission and headed to New Carthage the same day Scipio started his mission, he still would have arrived at New Carthage 3 days AFTER Scipio took control.--Doug Coldwell talk 19:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Even in the article on Mago Barca it says: Publius Cornelius Scipio the Younger, exploiting the lack of coordination among the Carthaginian generals, and the scattered location of their armies, ended up taking Cartagena in a daring expedition in 209 BC. Mago and his army was 3 days march from Cartagena at that time.--Doug Coldwell talk 20:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

476 artillery pieces?
Call me picky, but what kind of "artillery" are we talking about here, given that this was quite some time before the invention/discovery of gun powder? Catapults? Ballistae? Is there a proper source for this? 62.96.234.7 (talk) 13:25, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposal to rename the article
The title of this article strikes me as a little odd. This is the English-language Wikipedia, so why are we giving articles titles in foreign languages unless there is strong support for this in the sources. So I checked all of the high quality, reliable sources of the past 40 years I could find, 19 of them. Leaving aside Lazenby 1996 who uses "Cartagena", there are 5 works which use "Carthago Nova" and 13 works, but only 11 authors, who use "New Carthage". These are listed here. I therefore propose a move to "Battle of New Carthage". I also propose removing the "(209 BC)" disambiguater as unnecessary; while there was an attempt to recapture the city in 206 BC it is little known and is currently a red link. I suspect that 100% of searchers for either battle of New Carthage or battle of Carthago Nova are looking for this article. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:06, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * I was the last person to move the page, moving from Cartagena to Carthago Nova, with the justification that the former name is anachronistic. It also isn't really used in the classical studies literature. While I've heard it more often as Carthago Nova, I've no objection to translating Carthago Nova to New Carthage. This is the main article – in the same way the Battle of Thermopylae is the one with Leonidas – I have no objection to omission of the disambiguating year in brackets. Ifly6 (talk) 19:31, 14 April 2023 (UTC)


 * And done. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:48, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Comment
I would prefer the latter, about what was seized; Richardson raises some pretty reasonable reasons why we shouldn't entirely believe the story of the city's capture. Ifly6 (talk) 19:00, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Helen of Troy
I remember something about Helen of Troy and Carthage. Could this be the key to Philadelphia in Turkey in Athens?Italic I did not know that carthage was in Spain Ujwllop8852 (talk) 18:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)


 * New Carthage. The city of Carthage was in North Africa. It is now a suburb of Tunis. Troy: you may be thinking of the myths of Dido and/or Aeneas. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)