Talk:Battle of Pavlivka

Proposal
i propose merging this with the contents of the draft for the battle of Vuhledar and maybe create a single page about both.

reason: both are close to each other, and the battle of Pavlivka is directly related to the attempt to take Vuhledar. SnoopyBird (talk) 19:02, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
 * To be honest, like i proposed in the Eastern Ukraine campaign article, we should have an article for the southeastern campaign area (Mariupol, Berdiansk, Vuhledar, Pavlivka, Orikhiv, Huliapole, Tokmak, Volnovakha, etc), this region has had enough battles (including notable ones) to get its own article, it also doesn't fit on neither the Eastern nor the Southern campaigns (its really more of a mix of both). SnoopyBird (talk) 19:59, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Absolutely agree, but sources on southeastern campaigns are sparse. Most battles lasted for a short short period of time (mostly in March and lasted only for days). Moreover, I believe the current definition of Eastern Campaign is battles in Donetsk Oblast, and Southern Campaign is battles in Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblast. It would be kind of awkward to split southern and eastern campaign. I will try to gather enough sources on specific battles to make new pages on south eastern campaign in an effort to split the 2 campaigns. :) Amnop1234 (talk) 15:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, in my opinion, the berdiansk-mariupol region is kind of where the southern and eastern theatres merge, so it should either have its own page, or we should make pages for other battles like orikhiv and vuhledar, as they indeed had some level of fighting there. SnoopyBird (talk) 17:23, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I suggest merging and creating pages into these:
 * Ongoing battles:
 * battle of Kamyans'ke - Orikhiv
 * battle of Hulyaipole
 * battle of Velkyka Novosilka
 * Vuhledar Offensive
 * Ended battles:
 * battle of Tokmak - Polohy
 * Which I think can give a clear overview of the forgotten south eastern campaign. Amnop1234 (talk) 19:57, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think we already have an article for Huliaipole, although we don't for Tokmak, Orikhiv, Vuhledar and Velyka Novosilka. SnoopyBird (talk) 22:40, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The Ukrainian article on Orikhiv is pretty small, if you want to make a entire article on it, id suggest try to get more content, i added some things to the Southern Ukraine Campaign article on Orikhiv though. SnoopyBird (talk) 23:05, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. I will slowly gather sources and expand/create the articles. :) Amnop1234 (talk) 08:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I think it would be more reasonable to remain battle of Pavlivka for now as no real battle took place in Vuhledar. However, if RuAF is able to push towards Vuhledar in the future (I think they can't lol), it would be suitable to establish a separate page / merge the two pages by then. Amnop1234 (talk) 15:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, true, but, i still think that we should merge vuhledar and pavlivka into a single page, the two battles are mostly connected to each other, and if we merge both, we can get significant coverage for a bigger article, instead of 2 small-sized ones. SnoopyBird (talk) 17:23, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * By the way, Russian forces did try to take Vuhledar, quite a few times too, it appeared as contested for a long time in maps, as the RuAF managed to reach the city's outskirts, plus reconnaissance troops entering the city a few times and the bombing of the city (including use of cluster bombs by Russian forces), i think all of this gives enough information and reason to make article about both battles (maybe called "Vuhledar Offensive" or something like that, as the battle wasnt only in Vuhledar and Pavlivka, but also affected other nearby villages).SnoopyBird (talk) 17:38, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Really good point, and RuAF launched another offensive in Pavlivka-Vuhledar area (and Mykilske) today. I will see what turns out in a week's time. If RuAf is really able to push to Vuhledar, let's merge the two pages and call it Vuhledar Offensive. :) Amnop1234 (talk) 19:52, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Also I have added a section named Vuhledar Offensive using the source from ISW. I will keep the part under this page until RuAF reached Vuhledar while constantly updating it. Amnop1234 (talk) 20:15, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Nice work y'all, although i still think we should merge both, as this isn't the first time Russia attempts a takeover of Vuhledar (like i said before, they bombed the city and attempted to take it over back in may or so last year) SnoopyBird (talk) 22:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Although geographically close, these are two different battles/operations that took place with a time difference of three months (Pavlivka - late October/mid-November; Vuhledar - late January). Also, the battle for Pavlivka was notable in itself due to the reporting at the time regarding the supposed heavy casualties suffered by the Marines. So I would leave them as separate articles. Between the two battles, there were no other notable operations that took place in the area, thus not making this one continues military operation. EkoGraf (talk) 00:09, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Super   Ψ   Dro  20:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Oppose: First, discussions had been conducted in January regarding the merging of the two pages (as above). Second, the attacks in the current Vuhledar Offensive are mainly from the Mykilske area. The famous photos of dozens of armoured vehicles destroyed by Ukrainian ATGMs and minefields comes from a few km eastwards of the town itself. RuAF did not launch major attacks from Pavlivka area, as they struggled to hold the positions accross the river. This makes the two operations completely separate and both pages has their meaning of existence. Yet I will not remove this proposal to receive more opinion. :) Amnop1234 (talk) 20:48, 12 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sorry for not responding sooner, i changed my PC's motherboard and had to do some stuff, so i got logged off and had forgotten my password, so, anyways, i dont really care much about this proposal anymore, i think someone should close it, this article has enough coverage already.
 * I still think we should make more articles about the battles in that region though.
 * SnoopyBird (talk) 17:32, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Two paragraphs is definitively not enough coverage. Since nobody seems to intend to do the merge, I will do it.
 * As for the points by Amnop1234, while attacks may have come mainly from Mykilske, they have also come from Pavlivka. Further, it is obvious capturing Pavlivka was aimed at the conquer of Vuhledar. I will remind users here Russia stormed Vuhledar several times before the renewed attacks in January. Super   Ψ   Dro  09:49, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
 * For Super Dro:
 * Thank you very much for the help. :) I will just be adding more details to the part and keep updating the page.
 * For SnoopyBird:
 * Congrats in successfully logging back on your account! Sorry for the inability in creating more pages. I was quite busy in the past months. I was focusing on cleaning existing pages. I will try my best to add more articles as soon as possible. Amnop1234 (talk) 17:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Is Battle of Pavlivka Really Over?
I have found a video on the Kaskad Battlion shelling AFU outpost in Pavlivka https://www.bitchute.com/video/nP88MlvMOXQP/ The video is posted on 9th Jan 2023 I geolocated the video as the original location in the video is wrong: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.7531295,37.2289765,140m/data=!3m1!1e3 Can anyone prove this is a old video before November 2022? Otherwise the battle should be still ongoing. Amnop1234 (talk) 20:28, 25 January 2023 (UTC)


 * If no one is able to put up prove then I will ask through the invasion of ukraine main page for permission to change the status to ongoing Amnop1234 (talk) 21:07, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I have also asked through list of engagements of the invasion of Ukraine page. Please do not remove the bracket of waiting for further confirmation quote next to Russian Victory without any probable reason. Thank you. Amnop1234 (talk) 21:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
 * As SnoopyBird said, that is not a reliable source. All current maps (including pro-Ukrainian ones) show Pavlivka under Russian control, and since yesterday various sources, including the Ukrainian military, are reporting Russian attacks on Vuhledar from the direction of Pavlivka (one example ), de-facto confirming Pavlivka to be under Russian control (as per their mode of reporting in the past). EkoGraf (talk) 00:00, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Agreed, battle of Pavlivka is indeed over, with a Russian Victory. Amnop1234 (talk) 22:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
 * but I suspect that battle really ended on 14th November Amnop1234 (talk) 22:23, 27 January 2023 (UTC)