Talk:Battle of Saragarhi/Archive 1

Photo caption?
Ummm ... shouldn't there be a caption to the photo? Was this fellow in the conflict (which is suggested by his appearance in the article) - I expect it is merely a photo of a soldier. Can someone please add an appropriate caption? Thanks, Hu Gadarn 21:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Please sign your comments
It helps us all if reviewers can see who has entered comments in the discussion pages. Just use four tildes (~) at the end of your comment and you will get an automatic name/date/time stamp. Thanks, Hu Gadarn 21:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Fresh inputs
Hello everyone, I am attempting to give fresh inputs to this article. --Bhadani 13:57, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I verified 3 sources, including the one specified in the article. Out of three, the link specified in the article indicates 22 sikhs, whereas the other 2 links states 21 - so I am changing the number to 21 in the article:
 * http://www.info-sikh.com/SSPage1.html
 * http://allaboutsikhs.com/events/saragarhi.htm
 * http://www.zafarnama.com/Pages/Saragrahi.html
 * I think 22 includes Havildar, and the 21 number is the number of men he led (?).--Duk 16:49, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

I have developed the article to some extent. --Bhadani 18:55, 9 May 2005 (UTC) --- Hello i have verified too that there were 21 sikhs including the hawaldar and found out on other pages too. And this site has almost credible information on indian army and is perhaps the only one with extensive info http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1765/Saragarhi.html

What an interesting article!

I have tidied up the English grammar a little to improve readability.

Thank you
Am new to wiki. Have changed my original question title to make more specific/reflective of question I asked.(Hope this is OK)

Thank you again for your article. Your article inspired me to read further on the subject. With anything I think worthwhile, I always check sources, and that was what lead me to ask about it.

I had hoped to enhance the article by finding the specific link to the UNESCO quote so that others might be able to appreciate and compare the scale of the event. I spent several hours, searching generally, and specifically on the site, but was not successful.

I will read all of the links you have taken the time to give.

Best wishes.

ryangeary 0845, 13 February 2007

Some useful links
Great to find you around. I welcome you and hope to see more edits from you. I thank you for your comments above as such comments add to enhance value of wikipedia by citing sources and giving references. Your insight as a new editor is really remarkable to start wiki-ing with a serious topic (or perhaps you have been already wiki-ing) - in any case, welcome friend! I think that perhaps you could not find any reference as the facts appear incredible to many and so people may not try to search sufficiently. I am giving some links, and in case you have a large library nearby, you may try to locate some books on military history to read a little more than what wikipedia tells about this Battle - several books are available on this Battle :)


 * http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/personalities/military/sargarhi.html
 * http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/rgt-sikh.htm - it may be noted that the site has good standing, and has also been positively commented upon by the Forbes:
 * http://mod.nic.in/samachar/march01-03/html/nd.htm - this is from a government of India site. Government of India should not be telling lies! BTW, one may also find several references in British archives.
 * http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1765/Saragarhi.html - BTW, Sainik Samachar (news from the armed forces) is a Government of India Publication, the largest democracy in the world and Government of India will certainly not publish something dubious.
 * http://www.mod.nic.in/samachar/nov16-04/body.html - a page from Sainik Samachar

And, still there are many other resources including books and magazine in the printed media too. In case, you are interested in the topic and if you have time and inclination, please try to locate few of them and please try to update this wikipedia page. We certainly require editors like you to make this encyclopedia still better. Regards. --Bhadani 04:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
 * A day shall come, when it shall become a FA if we get more inputs like the one under reference as it shall prompt the value editors of this page to add more value, reliable and pure. --Bhadani 04:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

NPOV?
The article seems a bit one sided (not exactly Neutral Point of View) but I've refrained from making any changes to this aspect of it. Redgrittybrick 22:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree. For example, this claim should be referenced in the article: "The world received the details of the battle of Saragarhi with awe and admiration." If the world had such a response there must be some sort of record, no? I believe that this sacrifice is worthy or proper referencing otherwise it will be discounted as bumph. Thanks, Hu Gadarn 21:29, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but your missing the point this is very big in India and the eastern world not western world. Most western media and movies are about western history and events. Most average people in the west hardly know anything about Indian history.--Peter johnson4 00:17, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Also this line, "When the heroic deeds of these valiant soldiers was recounted" hardly seems to be neutral. BTerran 14:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Based on the comments above, I feel that we should try to modify the contents to look more encyclopedic. Yes, I agree to the comments - we should remove/ modify certain information. --Bhadani 14:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree with the NPOV,though it wass truly an act of great courage,the article particulary the Standing ovation section its full of epic and subjective statements:All around were signs of the supreme sacrifice of the Sikh soldiers in Battle lines Every defender of Saragarhi had laid down his life to the last man and to the last bullet and it crearly is biased:When the heroic deeds of these valiant soldiers.So i propose a more objective description--Andres rojas22 18:25, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * There definitely is a lot of hyperbole associated with the article, part of the problem is that the battle does not even get a mention in the online resources of the British army/ battles. ( Which could be due the non "British" troops involved which usually have not got British press coverage for most campaigns). I have seen the standing ovation in British Parliament line on many India military publications ( Bharath Rakshak for instance) that it seems that parts of the article is lifted from some of these publications. Haphar 15:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think that someone should try to tone down the language to make the same look more encyclopedic. Despite its absence on the online resources, it must be a remarkable battle as almost all the soldiers got Indian Order of Merit (military) which was like Victoria Cross for non-British soldiers. --Bhadani (talk) 15:46, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Citation?
Thank you for the article. It was a truly heroic effort on the part of the defenders.

I am unable to verify the claim that: "UNESCO has described the Battle of Saragarhi as one of eight stories of collective bravery". Can this be cited?


 * These citations are just pages that describe the battle as being one of UNESCO's eight stories. None of these pages cite their facts, they may have gotten their information from this page. UNESCO has no publication listed that has anything to do with stories of collective bravery. This may have been published in one of their periodicals, and if that's the case this fact should be removed until it can be verified. robobogle 11:22, 2 November 2007


 * No thats completely wrong the references have not got any information from this wiki article look at this news report: http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040911/edit.htm#6 it is from 11 september 2004 and it mentions, "the battle of Saragarhi, which is one of the eight stories of collective bravery published by UNESCO".


 * "The battle also figures as one of the eight collective stories on bravery published by UNESCO for children" this reference is from Tuesday, May 25, 1999 http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie/daily/19990525/ige25006.html


 * This wikipedia article was only started on 20 April 2005 so these news bulletins didn't get any info from here because this article was created 6 years after them--Peter johnson4 23:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Moreover, Globalsecurity which is one of the most respected military reporting sites on the internet states,


 * "Now, September 12 is celebrated as "Saragarhi Day" by all the battalions of the elite Sikh Regiment. unesco recognises this battle as one among eight battles of the world known for collective bravery."


 * http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/rgt-sikh.htm

Similarly, is anybody able to cite at least one respected source to substantiate: "The battle has been ranked as one of very few events of such bravery and has been compared to Thermopylae, where a small Greek force faced a large and mighty Persian army of Xerxes (480 BC)."

ryangeary 10:00, 12 February 2007


 * The tribune is one of India's most respected and established news papers (over 125 years old)


 * "Compared with the battle of Thermopylae (480 BC), the British Parliament paid eloquent tributes to the Saragarhi martyrs who were posthumously awarded “India Order of Merit” (equivalent to Victoria Cross and Paramvir Chakra), two Murabbas (50 acres of land) and Jagir of Rs 500 each. Two gurdwaras were built at Ferozepur and Amritsar in their memory. Hav. Ishar Singh hails from Jhorran village in Ludhiana district. It deserves a full-fledged college which could be named as Saragarhi College."


 * http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070922/mailbag.htm


 * This is a published book that the Tribute newspaper uses (cite their facts) Till Memory Serves - Victoria Cross Winners of India (ISBN 9788129111159) By Published: 2007;


 * "a record that UNESCO names as one of the rare acts of collective bravery in the annals of world history."


 * http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070415/spectrum/book2.htm


 * Bharat Rakshak - is the consortium of India Military Websites and is one of the most established and respected news sources on the India Military and the Indian army it states,


 * "Saragarhi is the incredible story of 21 men of the 36th Sikh Regiment (currently the 4th Sikh Regiment) who gave up their lives in devotion to their duty. In keeping with the tradition of the Indian Army, they fought to the death rather than surrender. The Battle at Saragarhi is one of eight stories of collective bravery published by UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization). It has been mentioned as one of the five most significant events of its kind in the world which includes the Saga of Thermoplyae associated with the heroic stand of a small Greek force against the mighty Persian Army of Xerxes in 480 B.C."


 * http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/History/1765/Saragarhi.html


 * Finally, here is another published book source that you can purchase I have bought myself a copy of this book. It is special specific published book on the Battle of Saragarhi, get it from your local library or Amazon its an excellent read. Also, I used it to check and extra verify of the "UNESCO 8 rare acts of collective of bravery" and comparison with the battle of Thermopylae and it is correct, this battle has been given those accolades.


 * Saragarhi Battalion: Ashes to Glory (ISBN 8170620228) by Kanwaljit Singh and H.S. Ahluwalia. --Peter johnson4 00:31, 3 November 2007 (UTC)


 * So as a old time wikipedia editor I think you are barking up the wrong tree, this is the real deal this really did happen and all the references are correct. Unless you can find any references that contradict the ones used the references stay and are perfectly acceptable with wikipedia policy.--Peter johnson4 23:38, 2 November 2007 (UTC)