Talk:Battle of Sisak

Untitled
Your account of the Battle of Sisak is entirely based on Croatian sources, which are because of the border depute with Slovenia to a large extend falsified. A faire account of the events can be obtained in Johann Weichard Valvasor book: Die Ehre des Herzogtums Krain. The basic fact is that in 1593 Sisak was a part and under the command of Duchy of Carniola (Herzogtum Krain, Vojvodina Kranjska). Croatia as such after its annihilating defeat from Turks on Krbavsko polje in 1498 did not exist. In 1593 Turks wanted to capture Sisak one of the border fortresses of Krain. Krain was left pretty alone to defend it. Krain was at that time predominantly protestant and catholic Styria and the remnants of Croatia did not want to help out. So the outnumbered army of Krain under the command of Andreas von Auersperg marched in two days from Ljubljana to Sisak and engaged and defeated Turks. For the victory in this battle Krain received a thanksgiving letter from pope significantly addressed: Dem krainer Fussvolk. June 22 after that became the holyday for the city of Ljubljana, which they were forced to abandon after the establishment of Yugoslavia. Political significance for Krain of this battle is the same as of the battle of Agincourt for England and secondly this was the first decisive victory of European firearms against the Asian cavalry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AndrejUmek (talk • contribs) 10:18, 14 November 2012 (UTC)


 * You wrote "after its annihilating defeat from Turks on Krbavsko polje in 1498 did not exist."
 * You must be joking.
 * Please read a few more books. 104.158.53.149 (talk) 02:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Numbers
Fascinating how numbers can vary: Figures for the    Turks: 10,000 - 38,000   (T. A. Mursalo,In search of a better life,1981, p.21) -  40,000 ( Stormfront - postings); Turkish casualties: 2,000 (Ivo Omrčanin: Military history of Croatia‎, Bryn Mawr, Pa.: Dorrance,1984 p.90)  - 20,000 (German WP) Christians: 4,000 - 5,800 troops;  just 40 - 50 casualties

"5000 Slovenian men led by Count Andrej Turjaški defeated 40.000 strong Turk army: It is interesting to note that the deciding battle with Andrej Turjaški leading the charge lasted a mere hour in which 10.000 Turks were dead including their commander Hasan Predojevic (who was not a Turk by birth, but was made a Turk Pasha - one of the many Janichars, i.e. white children kidnapped or forcefully taken away from their parents at a young age in Ottoman occupied territories to brain wash and train them to become Turk soldiers).

This battle was a classic case of Turkish arrogance where they were so sure of their win because of their overwhelming numbers they got slaughtered instead. The Turks were pounded from the front and the flanks and could not retreat back down the bridge on Kolpa because the Slovenian cavalry of the Carniola knight Adam Ravbar who was part of the Slovenian contingent managed to carve deep through the enemy's ranks and occupy the bridge. The Turks were surrounded unable to go forward or retreat. Amidst their panic they started to jump into the river Kolpa to save themselves, but most of them were caught and slaughtered at the embankments of the river, on the bridge itself or in the water. Many drowned for lack of swimming skills as well" OR ANOTHER posting, same address: "In the year 1591 Hasan Predojevic became leader of Turks in Bosnia, he had ambitions to conquer Vojna Krajina and later Slovenia (Carniola and Styria). He counquered the fortress of Bihac near river Una in 1592 on the border of Vojna Krajina, he got only the fortress of Sisak left. If they would won there then Slovenia would fall very quickly. On 15th of June 1593 Hasan and 40.000 Turks started the siege of Sisak. 7 days later on the 22nd of June 1593 Andrej Turjaski arrived from Slovenia with Slovenian army and some Croats and Germans to help. He had an army of 4.000 - 5.000 men and was heavily outnumbered. Turks atacked over the bridge from the left side of Kolpa river, Andrej Turjaski sent his cavalry into fight and pushed the Turks back to the brigde. When he saw that the Turks are retreating he sent the rest of his army into fight. Chaos and disorder started in the Turkish army, the bridge over Kolpa river was to small for Turks to retreat. Many of them tried to swim over the river but almoust all of them drowned including their leader Hasan Predojevic. Slovenians won the battle and around 10.000 Turks were dead."[ http://www.stormfront.org /forum/showthread.php?t=166238&page=15 2 Stormfront -postings]--Marschner (talk) 11:33, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Figures and Lit.
More details and sources according to postings on Miniature Wargaming: Battle of Sisak 1593: With ref. to Rempas Yahoo group (2004) by Brian A. Hodson PhD, Purdue Univ.:

Habsburgs: Commander: Andreas v. Auersperg (= Austrian total: 3090)
 * 1) Count Don Plaggei in command of Auersperg's life guards: 300 mounted, armored arquebusiers
 * 2) Adam Rauber zu Weineck und Kreutberg (cavalry captain of the Estates of Carniola): 200 mounted arquebusiers
 * 3) Christoph v. Obrutschan zu Altenburg (cavalry captain of the Estates of Carinthia): 100 mounted arquebusiers
 * 4) Ruprecht v. Eggenberg ("imperial and royal war commissioner"): 300 men or 3 banners of German "fußknechts", i.e. infantry
 * 5) Thomas Erdödy (Ban of Croatia): 350 hussars, 900 infantry
 * 6) Melchior von Rödern auf Friedland: 500 Silesian "Schützen zu Pferd", i.e.mounted arquebusiers
 * 7) Alban Grosswein (of Zagreb cathederal): 400 foot and horse (peasant-soldiers)
 * 8) Peter Erdödy (captain of the Uskoks): 500 uskoks and Hussars
 * 9) Stefan Tachy von Stättenberg: 80 Hussars
 * 10) Martin Pietschnik zu Altenhof: 100 men
 * 11) Sigmund Paradeiser von Neuhaus and George Paradeiser: 160 Carinthian musketeers
 * 12) Ferdinand Weidner: one banner (100 men) of German knights

Ottomans: Commander: Hassan Dervis, Pasha of Bosna (= Ottoman total: 21 100)
 * 1) Hassan Dervis – 4000 foot and horse
 * 2) Ferhad beg – 1000 men
 * 3) Opardi Beg of Clissa – 3000
 * 4) Mesni Beg – 2500
 * 5) Zeffar Beg of Svornik – 700
 * 6) Mehemed Beg of Hercegovina – 3000
 * 7) Kurd Beg – 1500
 * 8) Rustan Beg of Petrina – 500
 * 9) Ibrahim Beg of Likka – 2000
 * 10) Gradiska Captain – 1000
 * 11) 2000 Siphai, unknown akindjis, 9 large cannon

Sources: --Marschner (talk) 08:30, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Alfred H. Loebl, Das Reitergefecht bei Sissek vom 22. Juni 1593. Mitteilungen des Instituts für Österreichische Geschichtsforschung IX (1915), pp. 767-787.(German)
 * Peter Radics, Die Schlacht bei Sissek, 22. Juni 1593, Ljubljana: Josef Blasnik,1861 (German)
 * R. Lopasic, Spomenici Hrvatske krajine, III, Zagreb, 1889. (Serbocroat)
 * A. Koblar, Boji na Krajinah in Zmaga pri Sisku, Izv. Muzejskog drustva za Kranjsko, III, Ljubljana, 1893 (Slovenian)
 * V. Klajic, Povjest Hrvata, III/I, Zagreb, 1901 (Serbocroat)
 * S. Basagic, Kratka uputa u proslost Bosne i Hercegovine, Zagreb 1931 (Serbocroat)
 * A. Olesnicki, Tko nosi odgovornost za poraz turske vojske kod Siska, Vjesnik hrvatskog arh. drustva, XXII-XXIII, 1941/42 (Serbocroat)
 * P. Tomac, Bitka kod Siska, Vojnoistorijski glasnik 5/1957 (Serbocroat)
 * Monumenta spectantia Slavorum meridionalum, XV, Zagreb 1884.
 * Starine, XIX, Zagreb 1887(Serbocroat)

Casualties
40-50 casualties? You are kidding me right? I am going to find some more reliable numbers.


 * History is not to only go and find some old twisted historians and believe everything they say... Sometimes you have to use your head and think about it... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arsaces (talk • contribs) 08:58, 3 February 2012 (UTC)
 * These small numbers are obviously inaccurate, and I've tagged the statement. Does anyone have a modern, secondary source interpretation of the material?  It would be nice to have source(s) in English. 50.111.44.55 (talk) 08:17, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Added another source from 2008 with the casualties reported in English. Aeengath (talk) 10:09, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

Ottoman flag
, we normally use flag and flagicon templates for these cases. The flag you added used to be a parameter of those templates, but it was removed from Template:Country data Ottoman Empire, because those flags were deemed to be fictitious and unsourced. Do you have any reason to believe that the flag you added is not a made-up one, but actually used by the Ottoman Empire during those centuries? If so, you may consider chiming in the discussion at Template talk:Country data Ottoman Empire. (And Talk:Flags of the Ottoman Empire, they were removed from that article as well).--Orwellianist (talk) 14:52, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

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Good source
Good source for a lot of details

Tko nosi odgovornost za poraz turske vojske kod Siska 20. ramazana 1001. godine (22. lipnja 1593)? Who is responsible for the defeat of the Turkish army at Sisak on the 20th of Ramadan 1001 (June 22, 1593)? https://hrcak.srce.hr/50021 104.158.53.149 (talk) 02:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)