Talk:Battle of Tskhinvali/Archive 1

Request for expansion
Please expand. Made a very "bare bones" article. Sparten (talk) 05:59, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm going to try to add information from the other article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.12.186 (talk) 06:20, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for correction by the native speakers of English!
Please keep correcting the article written mostly by non-native speakers, including the punctuation!! It's important to eliminate grammar and stylistic errors that make the article look untidy!!


 * The article demands semi-protection - at least to save results of language correction.--195.98.173.10 (talk) 06:32, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Please don't, I'm the main editor, and I'm not logged on, and I don't have time for it at the moment Been typing all night long.


 * Please don't insult others claiming you're a 'main editor' of such important Wikipedia article.FeelSunny (talk) 14:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)FeelSunny

Help expanding the stubs needed!
Can someone with an account start an article for the OSInform News Agency? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.200.215.40 (talk) 14:40, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if you can't add any specific information, just help expanding the names of agencies and spokesmen. Don't leave the dead red.

Request for Pictures!
We have to add some pictures now!! Someone please help with this! Pictures showing Tshinvali before and after the battle to demonstrate that it was a city completely destroyed by shelling are escpecially welcome. But don't just add blood and gore, we've all had enough of this already. If you can't find the uncopyrighted ones, just skrew the copyright. No one's going to sue anyone, that's a world issue, that's way too important.

The pictures of what it was like before Georgians came there: Travel Images. Georgian salvo missiles bombardments and heavy armor that were invading the South Ossetia and some pictures of the refugees: Rian 'Tskhinvali: a city which is no more': pictures taken after August, 7-8 night shelling of the city: Reuters via Rian Those medics in the basement operated in Tskhinvali city hospital basement for several days after the very building of the hospital was leveled by Georgian artillery and tanks in the first hours of the attack.FeelSunny (talk) 16:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)FeelSunny

Timeline
The division of the time line into "Timeline before Russian Army interfered" and "Timeline of Georgia - Russia phase of battle" seems artificial. Russian peacekeepers have been part of the battle from the very beginning. Now, where should that dividing line be drawn? Is it when Russian tanks crossed the border? Or is when Russian jets crossed the border? ...Can we please get rid of this confusing break? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speaking fish (talk • contribs) 21:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * IMHO such parts should be done. The dividing moment of the battle - actions of russian tanks and artillery from the evening August, 8 (real fighting contacts between Georgian and Russian regular troops) till the end. Before that moment it was fighting between georgians (the restoration of constitutional order in the region - Georgia officials' point of view; or the georgian Genocide of the Ossetians - Ossetians' point of view). After that moment - it is the war between Unated Nations states. --195.98.173.10 (talk) 23:19, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, it is not. Because the first fire contact between Georgian regular army and Russian peacekeepers took place between 7th and 8th of August Vadimkaa (talk) 22:50 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree that the division is absolutely necessary: for example, because not everyone knows that the shelling of Tskhinvali was done long before the first Russian soldier crossed the border. The President of South Ossetia also stated the first numbers of civilian casualties (1400) before Russian army crossed the border. Yes, there were peacekeepers with light weaponry all the time of the crisis, but you do not say that peacekeepers level cities and kill civilians in thousands in one night, right?FeelSunny (talk) 14:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)FeelSunny

The timeline should remain on the page and no peacekeepers who've been there for 10 years should not be considered 'Russian intervention' as it suggests something new.

Russian peacekeepers in the region have been the status quo since before the fall of the Soviet Union and while a link to the other wiki articles that document this may be called for deleting the whole timeline is no.

Map
Please give a legend for the map. So you can tell disposition of forces. Sparten (talk) 11:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Of the two current maps, the one captioned "A map of the Caucasus showing the forces disposition before the battle of Tskhinvali." is just silly--mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 05:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Peace vs. peace
So, georgian peacekeepers are fighting russian peacekeepers?Slipzen (talk) 12:52, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it seems so. Russian President Medvedev said it on the press-conference. He said that Russian peacekeepers were asked to get away from their positions when Georgian attack begun, and when they refused both Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian regular military forces opened fire. Vadimkaa (talk) 22:40 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Battle is over
In the main article about this 2008 conflict it sais Russians have taken over the capitan and also I hear that on the news. Kermanshahi (talk) 12:58, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I am now hearing via al Jazeera that, after the failure of the last major assault, Georgian forces have fallen back from Tskhinvali completely. It would appear the battle has ended in a Russian and South Ossetian victory. 71.227.162.75 (talk) 08:23, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Tere is only the winner of this war - the United States of America. How long will they pit people, nations, neighbours to USA profit?!!! Damned! --195.98.173.10 (talk) 10:36, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Uh, okay there, spaz. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.88.58.254 (talk) 14:35, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Timeline
Please, don't citate on russian mass-media, and let's make timline without qoutes firstly, then will chek up the facts --Niggle (talk) 14:28, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * To all editors! There are a lot of mistakes depends on timezone. According to the information on Tbilisi page, Georgia timezone is UTC+4 at winter, and UTC+5 at summer (DST). So Georgia has 1 hour difference to Moscow time (Moscow: UTC+3 winter; UTC+4 summer). It means, that by Tskhinvali local time was the Friday (August, 8) when Georgia started heavy shelling of the city. This information demands to be checked up and corrected in the article!!! --Niggle (talk) 19:32, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So such statement IMHO is incorrect: "23:30 Georgian troops started bombardment of Tskhinvali using heavy artillery (howitzers), 122 mm multiple-launch rocket systems "Grad", and large-caliber mortars)[17][18]". If you based on Moscow media - they use Moscow timezone. Georgian and Ossetian - their own? We exectly don't know the same minutes, but it was between 00:00 and 01:00 at local georgian time on August, 8 (it means 23:00 till 00:00 local moscow time on August, 7). --195.98.173.10 (talk) 20:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * South Ossetia uses Moscow timezone. But I agree that exact minutes in time notations give a false sense of precision.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speaking fish (talk • contribs) 21:16, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

why if any mass media is to be referenced is Russian media banned??? Kharaku (talk) 00:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Pictures
After Russian Army interfered, both sides use similar weapons - T72 in different modifications, but nobody T80. IMHO, it would be better without any pictures (at list right now). --Niggle (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Exact time of Russian tanks interference
Our tanks couldn't entered Tskhinvali 12:14 local time - they was in Russia.


 * 12:14 Russian tanks entered Tskhinvali, reported first by Russian media and later by CNN.

Such statment is wrong - it probably mistake with timzone (ordinar local in Georgia - UTC +4; summer local time there - UTC +5 and UTC). --Niggle (talk) 16:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Rename: Battle for Tskhinvali
The conflict is a struggle to capture the city. Tskhinvali isn't a random battlefield. I propose we rename this article Battle for Tskhinvali. Am I right? - SSJ ☎ 21:47, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Bold move. - SSJ ☎ 21:49, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * nonsense. all urban battle articles have Battle of... Like Battle of Berlin or Battle of N'Djamena -- TheFE ARgod (Ч) 23:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You can use "for" and "of" for both cases but it's best to leave it alone.--66.229.12.186 (talk) 10:48, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Was vs. Is Fought
Since Russia has control of the city we should update the page.--66.229.12.186 (talk) 11:12, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Please do not update to the past tense because the war is still on, and we don't know what happens next.

Comment: Russian control of Tskinvali (at least before Aug 10) is disputed. See below "Concern about the Neutrality of Sources"


 * Could you reffered to some Internet mass media (or Governmental) source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa (talk • contribs) 08:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

What happened
It seems to be that the following thing happened. Georgia is George Bush's personal protectorate. He put Saakashvili there. The Georgian people don't like Mr. S but can't do anything. Mr. S finally launched an attack on the capital of South Ossetia which is basically a Russian protectorate. The exact reason is unknown. Maybe Bush told him to, maybe he did it on his own. The attack indeed seems to be genocidal and against the civilians, because the city was attacked at night on the eve of the Olympics, when many people were sleeping or preparing to watch TV, and the nearby villages were attacked. And he shut down all Russian information channels, which points finger at him as an anti-media fighter, because no matter how much Russia is disliked in the west shutting down information channels is just kind of self-explanatory. So it looks like the plan was simply to erradicate the inhabitants of S. Ossetia by Blut und Eisen which is rather sparsely populated and backland area of the central Caucasus, and either kill them or drive them out of there. The initial onslaught killed at least 1500, whereas about 5000 more are hiding or dying in the basements of the destroyed houses. The Russian forces stood on guard at the border and quickly interfered several hours later which is just enough to get from the North Ossetia, because somehow they knew for weeks something was up, and the trouble was brewing. Now (August 10), Mr. S is calling his dogs off, because the city has been destroyed as much as they could destroy it, and the most important part of the operation is over. The Georgians are usually thought as kind by nature, the most good-natured people of Caucasus and historically friendly with Russia and other peoples, but this time they were bulldozed to engage by S.'s police at gunpoints, so it is not their fault. This seems to be the most reasobale version, presently.


 * Apparently on his own. He seems to be quite hell-bent on setling the score, and GWB needs his troops down in Iraq - not indispensabley but he's quite happy that they keep the situation in Diyala Governorate and along parts of the Iraq-Iran border from (once again) getting messy. "Somehow they knew" - well nicely put. Based on what 3was reported and Saakashvali's version of the events, Putin had gathered the troops, making it look like Russia was planning a preemptive invasion. But the aim was to test Saakashvali, push him over the brink, make him fire first. A "Russian peacekeeper" (reasonable enough) convoy was shot to pieces by Georgian artillery under orders from a panicked Saakashvali to stop the presumed "invasion" (it was almost certainly not an invasion then, but at least on paper a legitimate movement of peacekeepers. But with Moscow simply refusing to commnet on the troop deployment in N Ossetia, Saakashvali's reaction was almost predictable). Then, and reasons for this might remain forever unknown, Saakashvali or someone else, Tskhinvali was reduced to rubble by Georgian forces. Then the Russians started to waltz in.
 * Technically both sides are in gross violation of international law. But while there is really no excuse for Saakashvali to have reacted like how he did instead of e.g. toing the same thing that the Emir of Kuwait did in 1990 (stay put and call up the US and the NATO and the UN to get Medvedyev to withdraw his troops while assuring guarantees for the case he doesn't and buy time for preparations) he ordered a full-scale break of what ceasefire agreement there was. Russia on the other hand can claim that yes, it violated Gorgias territorial integrity (that has been only existing on paper for nearly two decades anyway) and tracting to the threat posed by wholesale and indiscriminate desctuction of civilian life and property and its peacekeeping forces.
 * I wonder how this one is going to be spun. In any case, if anyone orchestrated anything here, it was Putin. The have lost a lot in a week, and predictably so. You do NOT entice an ally - some would say a puppet - who's in a precarious position and mentally perhaps not very stable to any shenanigans.
 * But Georgians seem to support Saakashvali more often than not. He is certainly not as unpopular as you put it. Not exactly popular either, but I'd guess if this war hadn't happened, the people would have put up with him for some more years, depending on how quickly the opposition got its act together. They seem to prefer a fool supported by the US to a fool supported by Russia, but I guess that they just prefer a fool who plays petty dictator once in a while to one who tries to do it all the time (that's how Saakashvali came to make his bid for power in the first place, remember?). If the Russians restrain themselves, they might have planted a knife in Saakashvali's back for good; he'll fall down soon enough because it is his incompetence that brought about this war. If they do to main Georgia what the Georgian army did to SOssetia, Saakashvali's chances on getting through this one strangthened are much better. In brief, the Kremlin's stance was "we're simply trying to restore the status quo ante, and the outcome depends on how much they toe to this line. That would mean a ceasefire in the next days if not hours, and a complete disengagement. But the numbers of mercenaries fighting on both sides does not suggest that this is gonna happen without problems. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 13:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

As to history, it is difficult to assess whether South Osetia is or is not a historical Georgia's territory. South Ossetia was formed in the 1920s. It seems that Ossetians lived there for ages in spots, although it's true that their number was quickly increasing throughout the 20th century during the Soviet period. However, Georgians lived there too. At least, the Great Soviet Encyclopedia (1972) officially cites 66% of Ossetians, 28% of Georgians, whereas the 19th century polls for Tskinvali cite few or no Ossetians, and it was said to be populated mostly by Jews and Armenians (!). So there has always been comlex ethnical situation, and the population has probably alwasys been mixed, and changing for ages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.234.25.210 (talk) 16:20, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Georgians and Ossetians were mostly peasants so it's no wonder that Tskhinvali was populated mainly by Armenians and Jews at that time (Armenians formed a plurality even in Tbilisi then). Alæxis¿question? 03:50, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Mercenaries Vs volunteers
Russia across Georgia of using Mercs but Russia has Volunteers from Cossacks ethic groups —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.229.12.186 (talk) 22:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It is hard to say whether the cossacs are what you call an 'ethnic group'. First, that was just a social status - a man that was a serf in Central Russia then ran to the border region to become free. Than that was quite like proffesional status - a man that keeps enemies outside long Russian southern borders. Cossacs have the same rreligion, language and culture as other Russians.
 * The huge difference between mercenaries and volunteers is that mercenaries fight for money while volunteers fight for the idea. Some Georgian POWs, by the way, could not even speak Georgian. (talk) 05:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)FeelSunny (talk) 08:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)FeelSunny
 * Some Russian volunteers, BTW, cannnot even speak Russian
 * Met them personally, huh? Or maybe you will give some links where 'those bad Russian mercenaries' in Ossetia speak Georgian? If you knew something more about USSR, you would understand, that Russian was an international communication language in the USSR, and it is now in most post-soviet republics, like Kazakhstan, or Ukraine, or Azerbaidzhan for example. Most people speak Russian even in Georgia. Georgian and Azerbaidzhani Defence ministers talk Russian to each other. So when you say that Russian volunteers did not speak Russian - where do they come from, then? Maybe from the US or France? Total nonsence.FeelSunny (talk) 08:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)FeelSunny

Wow, this article is crap - no it is not
Needs to be REALLY cleanud-up or even rewritten almost totally. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 05:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC) Dear Captain, there are links to both sides sources, as well as independent sources. There are both sides views presented. Care to give gome examples of 'Crap' here? To me, this article looks rather neutral, maybe not that "Saakashvili-is-a-long-time-ally-and-a-real-genius" style as you usually see in the Western media.FeelSunny (talk) 08:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)FeelSunny

Concern about the Neutrality of Sources
Two comments:

1. I wonder why this page is within projects S.OSetia (understandible) and Russia (not so much so), but not Georgia (that's totally outrageous). I mean is a peacekeeper (or if you ask us, Georgians - Invader, but never mind) more important than the country in which S.Osetia is located?


 * Even BBC and CNN sources called 'Russian peacekeepers'. Just type "CNN Russian peacekeepers" in Google. Anyway, here Georgian troops called Georgian Army and not like S.Ossetains wanted to called them, as an example.

2. This is a major comment to almost all articles in Wikipedia. Russian sources seem to have announced that Russians have regained control of Tskinvali on the evening of August 8. various Russian sources report anywhere between this time, and evening of Aug 9.

I totally distrus the first time and am very sceptical to the second one. Anyhow (whatever my beliefs), This is not what Georgian forces have reported and at least "According to Russian Sources" should be added prior to any statements about the Tskinvali retake. And for the totally honest people, this is the chronology of (battle) events according to Georgian side:

night of Aug 08 - Georgia Takes (with very little resistance, from locals) 8 (this increased in the morning) villages around Tskinvali and to the north of it

morning of Aug 08 - Georgia takes most of tskinvali with all but one posts taken

afternoon of Aug 08 - 3:00 - 6:00 ceasefire is declared from Georgian side and a corridor opened to allow civilians come out.

Evening of Aug 08 - Complete control over Tskinvali is gained with no major events reported during the evening. Clashes reported North of Tskinvali, near the South of Town Java.

Aug 09 - Fighting is reported and Heavy attacks from North by Russian Forces, although The town stays in Georgian control.

Morning of Aug 10 - Heavy air attacks and a massive russian army causes Georgian army to regroup to the south of Tskinvali.

Afternoon of Aug 10 - First a ceasefire is declared by Georgian side, and then total withdrawal of forces from Tskinvali and the whole conflict region. Russian troops are reported not to allow some Georgian troops passage.

Morning of Aug 11 - (as I'm writing) Georgian side has withdrawn all the Army from the conflict region, although Russians are proceeding outside the Conflict region and attacking Georgian forces. Air bombardment of Georgia continues.


 * You free to change this article. You may add an alternative chronology. The only need is official verifiable sources in the Internet. Georgian, if you want. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.147.224.22 (talk) 07:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Russia also says Georgian forces are still near the town and groups of Georgian commandos were sent to infiktrate it. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Citation would be nice. The policy is quite simple: everything should be referred. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa (talk • contribs) 08:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * As it seems, Georgian troops withdrew from the town but not the surroundings roughly coincident with the ceasefire announcement. Shelling of Tskhinvali by Georgian troops has reputedly since resumed. The information you outline here roughly matches with the train of events as seen from in remote from Central Europe.
 * You make a an important remark. Source of information - ideally the ultimate source, since e.g. "Russian peacekeepers" is not a term CNN et al thought of themselves, they got it from somewhere - should be given ALWAYS. Because there are perhaps half a dozen people willing and able to give accurate information e.g. on what happens in the Tskhinvali region (the few reporters still there). Anything else is guesswork and political intertests commingling. Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 12:38, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The lead Russian armoured battalion almost wiped-out in an ambush - embedded Russian journalist
Very heavy losses (most of vehicles lost), Russian 58th army commander wounded (which was officially confirmed) and 2 Russian journalists wounded.

http://mk.ru/blogs/MK/2008/08/10/society/365780/ --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Here we got 1,700 peacekeepers from Russian side at the beginning of the battle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vadimkaa (talk • contribs) 08:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

The battle is being fought in a narrow river valley, it is more like WWI trench warfare. Armored assaults by both sides have been counterproductive. I suspect this will turn into artrittion type battle going on till one side is burned out. Biafra?Geo8rge (talk) 15:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

What I want to know is, if this source is being used, then why besides the part about the commander being wounded are the other casualties not really reported? If an entire armored battalion is destroyed, then why are losses so few? Either the Russians are covering up losses(As has happened in Chechnya and other events- heavy losses are onyl admitted to after the events and conflict has passed)or the Russian journalist believes moderate casualties equate to being destroyed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.131.218.57 (talk) 17:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

It was not an ambush. Georgia reveled a video tape showing a single 2S7 Pion which fired with a 203mm gun circa 250 times from Gori Artillery Base at the first russian armored column of the 58th russian army. The georgian artillery officer: "We did more than we actually were able, shooting more than 250 times at the enemy, securing our troops withdrawal from the city. We worked to the limit of a humans physical possibility", a Georgian reconnassance officer exhausted:"Phu!, I will never forget the scene of destruction" —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 07:22, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Generally blogs and other hearsay don't meet RS criteria, and tend towards sensationalism. The blog and rumors above are a example of such unusable material. Until a mainstream source is found, such incredulous claims will have to stay out.Freepsbane (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

The Campaign of the Georgian Army
August 1 through 7, 2008


 * Georgia confronts South Ossetian forces in limited military engagements in the villages of ( Avnevi; Tamarasheni; Prisi; Kurta) and villages controlled by South Ossetia (Khetagurovo ) and the outskirts of Tskhinvali.
 * Six Ossetians reported dead when the capital of South Ossetia came under fire . The evacuation of children began.
 * On the late evening of Aug 2 and the night of Aug 2-3, the Georgian forces approached Tskhinvali, bringing infantry and armored vehicles up to the conflict area.

August 7, 2008  (herein, the local time is used: the UTC daylight saving time + 5 hr, or the regular UTC + 4 hr)
 * Secretary of the Georgian National Security Council Kakha Lomaia to Reuters: "Separatists opened fire at the two Georgian villages of Prisi and Tamarasheni, and we had to return fire"
 * "Ludmila Kelekhsayeva, the Chief Doctor Deputy of the Republican Hospital in Tskhinvali, said that the first wounded began to arrive late at night (Aug 6?) from villages Avnevi, Ubiat, Khetagurovo, Satikar... Two civilians dead in the village of Khetagurovo because of massive shelling: one man hit by an explosion, and one woman burned in her house", the OSInform News Agency reported.
 * 23:30 The Georgian troops began shelling Tskhinvali using heavy artillery, such as howitzers, GRAD rocket launchers, and large-caliber mortars ; "The South Ossetian defense forces did not open fire at first, but as the enemy fire intensified, they started firing back at the aggressor. The Tskhinvali center is being shelled from the direction of Gori where 27 GRAD rocket launchers have been installed...The Commander of the Peacekeeping Forces Marat Kulakhmetov stated that the Georgian side has just informed him that they are starting the war", the OSInform News Agency reported.

August 8, 2008
 * 00:00 (?) Calls for help and military support arrived over the phone from women in a bombing shelter in Tskhinvali to the OSInform News Agency, asking the government of Russia not leave them under the enemy fire
 * 01:42 The Georgian military minister Mamuka Kurashvili stated that "an operation to finish off a criminal regime in order to restore the constitutional order in the region has just begun".
 * 02:38 The Georgian troops use MLRS and heavy artillery against the city . Tskhinvali civilians attempt to hide in the basements. It is impossible to get the wounded people to the hospital because of heavy shelling.
 * 03:08 Georgian authorities informed the Russian peacekeeping commander about the operation and asked them not to interfere.
 * 04:02 The Russian media reported that Georgia had launched a tank attack on Tskhinvali, with at least 15 civilians killed by heavy shelling.
 * 04:45 Georgian State Minister for Reintegration Temuri Yakobashvili announced that Tskhinvali was nearly surrounded by the Georgian forces
 * 05:00 (?) After hours of artillery bombardment Georgian tanks moved into the city and were heading toward the city center, where they were met with fierce resistance from South Ossetian forces. Georgian snipers were the most lethal on the battlefield killing anything that moved according to the civilians. The South Ossetian presidential palace in the city was burning as intense hand-to-hand fighting broke out across the town. Ordinary apartment blocks were pounded as the remains of Georgian tanks struck by rocket-propelled grenades stood burning in the middle of the streets. The Georgian army needed only a few hours to take the city.
 * 10:23 The Georgian media informed that Tskhinvali was captured and Georgia now controlled two-thirds of South Ossetia's territory ;
 * 12:10 The Russian Ministry of Defense reported that the Georgians had killed at least 10 Russian soldiers and wounded 30 in the first shelling of the peacekeepers base at the city ; later that number was revised to 13 killed and 70 wounded;
 * 13:54 A joint statement by the President of North Ossetia-Alania Taymuraz Mamsurov and the South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity claimed that "according to the latest information available, the city continues to resist the incursion of the Georgian troops and has still not been captured". ;
 * 14:27 Heavy street fighting was escalating in the city, and it was confirmed by a television footage that four Georgian tanks were on fire at the railroad station square with a few dead Georgian soldiers beside them on the ground ;
 * 16:06 The Russian media reported that two armored tank battalions of the 58th Army are moving toward Tskhinvali as a support for Russian peacekeepers . That fact was later confirmed by CNN.
 * 18:26 Alexander Barankevich, the Secretory of Security Counsel of South Ossetia, stated that the Georgian troops are leaving Tskhinvali, whereas a column of the Russian armored vehicles is just entering the city.  As Reuters reported with reference to the President of Georgia Mikheil Saakashvili, there are now about 150 Russian tanks and armored vehicles on the South Ossetian territory. A Interfax correspondent in Tskhinvali said, "There's now a stagnation – you can't hear any shots. The whole city is on fire, every second house seems to be burning"
 * 20:00 The legacy of the night attack was initially assessed as thousands of civilians killed according to the South Ossetian sources, and about 100 civilians killed according to the Georgian sources . Inal Pliyev, the Director of the Information Department of South Ossetia told an Interfax correspondent,"Probably thousands, because absolutely everything is destroyed. They used GRAD rockets on the living blocks, houses, a hospital. All office and plant buildings are on fire. The schools, the University, the Ministery of Culture, the Parlament building. The camp of peacekeepers is also mangled. Our defenders managed to hit three tanks that were in the city... Most of the wounded were injured by the air strikes"

After the Russian Army implication
The Russian Army units crossed the border into South Ossetia on August 8, encountering the Georgian forces near the capital of Tskhinvali. These forces were probably based on the 58th Army. Both sides (Russia and Georgia) used armoured vehicles and artillery. On August 9, Russian sources claimed that the Russian Army had regained control over the city, while Georgian sources denied this, insisting the fighting was still on. After the Russians drove the Georgians out of the outskirts of Tskhinvali, the Georgian units regrouped with armored reinforcements from Gori. On the later half of August 9, the regrouped Georgian forces launched a new offensive against South Ossetian and Russian defenders of Tskhinvali. Heavy fighting was said to be underway on the city outskirts, as at least three Georgian tanks were reported hit.

August 9, 2008


 * 07:25 "The Georgian forces shelled Tskhinvali all night intermittently for about one hour or one-and-a-half each time, stopped at times by the backfire from the defense forces... About 70% of city buildings are now destroyed. The situation is very tough", said a spokeswoman of the South Ossetia government Irina Glagolyeva to the Russian Vesti 24 News Channel.
 * 07:36 "South Ossetia still controls Tskhinvali... The artillery shelling was on and off at night, the civilians kept hiding in the basements. Many apartment blocks were on fire all night long, and the fires could not be put out because of lack of water supply. Still, the Georgian media go on claiming that the control over Tskhinvali belongs to Georgia. Last night, the broadcasting of all Russian TV channels over Georgia was discontinued", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 8:30  "Some explosions heard here and there. The bakery now works in the city. In the morning, people had a chance to come out and get some bread. The ex-neighbors regrouped, and now tend to hide in the same basements. No power in the city. The retreating Georgians took some city inhabitants hostage, whose number cannot be presently determined. The Tskhinvalians blocked and barricaded the basements doors as hard as they could, and prepared some axes to fight off any abusive action". Last night, the Georgian tanks kept firing at the few still standing apartment blocks in the city. Smashed Georgian tanks can be seen on the streets, you can also see a destroyed BMP on the southern outskirts with some dead bodies nearby", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 11:19 "Again, Tskhinvali is under heavy artillery fire coming from the direction of the Georgian villages", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 11:19 "The Georgian snipers keep firing at vehicles transporting the wounded to the hospitals of South Ossetia", said Irina Glagoleva, a spokeswoman for the South Ossetia government.
 * 11:30 "The women and children in Tskhinvali suffer from thirst. The city has not had any access to water, gas, electricity for 3 days. The cell phones are losing power. The Georgian snipers shoot anyone who tries to get out into the street", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 14:22 "An intense, massive shelling of living blocks of the city by Georgian forces using mortars, artillery, BMPs, tanks, and the GRAD rocket launchers is on. The shells are coming in bursts, the intervals between the bursts are less than a second", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 15:20 "Tskhinvali is under control of the South Ossetian forces, but the extermination of the Georgian gun-layers who coordinate the fire on the city continues", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 15:38 "Some shelling to the houses near the border. Fire and smoke everywhere... The exact number of victims is unknown to me...", reported Inal Pliyev, the director of the Information Department of South Ossetia, from Tskhinvali.
 * 15:40 The evacuation of 100 wounded persons is under way, as reported by the State Information Committee of South Ossetia to a correspondent of the REGNUM News Agency
 * 19:00 After regrouping in the suburbs of Tskhinvali, the Georgian forces launched a new bombardment of the city using heavy artillery (howitzers), GRAD rocket launchers, and large-caliber mortars.  Georgian troopers supported by tanks entered the southern outskirts of the city
 * 20:00 Yuri Morozov, the head of the government of South Ossetia, reported to the Russian Vesti News Channel, "About 5000 civilians remain in Tskhinvali, whose evacuation is not possible at the moment. The Georgian side continues to bombard the territory with all weapons available including the GRAD rocket launchers, howitzers, and tanks. The road to the city is under heavy fire. Tbilisi should provide at least a 2-3 hours corridor to evacuate the wounded."
 * 20:16 The OSInform News Agency reported that a heavy fighting with the Georgian infantry continues on the south and southwest outskirts of Tskhinvali.
 * 21:27 South Ossetia's military shotdown a Georgian attack plane. The fall of the blazing plane was videotaped and played on the Russian Vesti television channel.
 * 23:50 A five-hour artillery onslaught on the city ended. The OSInform News Agency claims that a major Georgian attack has been stopped, reporting 12 Georgian tanks destroyed and 1 Georgian bomber shot down. The fighting with the Georgian infantry on the south of Tshinvali continues. Civilians still remain in the basements with no food or water. The South Ossetian forces complain that Georgia has yet not provided a peace corridor to evacuate the civilians caught up in crossfire.

August 10, 2008


 * 07:30 "The artillery fire from both sides continued throughout the night. The Georgian troops fired at Tskhinvali from the surrounding heights. There was some battle near the town of Kvais, and an attempt to capture the village of Singur", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 08:00 "There's some stagnation at this time. Some of the people in the basements have come outside. The Ossetians continue mopping up the snipers. A group of snipers is hiding in the Emalprovod Cable Plant building. As far as you can assess it visually, there seems to be more bodies of Georgian soldiers, than the Ossetians. Some battle continues on the outskirts. The Russian tanks are in the city.... About 5000 thousand of civilians still remain in the city. Georgia has not yet provided a peace corridor for their evacuation... A raiding squad of about 30 persons has infiltrated into the village of Tbet at night (August 9-10) which is used by the civilians who try to escape from Tskhinavli. There is a broken car now standing on the road with the civilians they shot on spot. A family in one of the Tbet's homes has also been shot to death, there are children among the dead", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 09:52 The South Ossetia Secretary of State Konstantin Kochiyev told the REGNUM News Agency, "The situation in the Republic of South Ossetia has changed to a catastrophe during the past two day. The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists. The number of dead is uncountable, there seem to be thousands. How many more have been tortured to death by the Georgian aggressors is hard to imagine. This cannot be forgiven. The atrocities of the Georgian troops are beyond measure. South Ossetia will never forgive what has happened to our people. There are many dead bodies of Georgian soldiers and broken vehicles both on the outskirts of Tskhinvali and near its center. Today and last night, the Ossetian fighters continued defending the territory, but the enemy doesn't stop. Our forces are running out. We're waiting for Russia to support. It's not even about hours, it's about minutes."
 * 12:00 "The battle outside Tskhinvali continues. There is heavy firing from both sides. Self-propelled artillery vehicles, GRAD rocket launchers and aircraft can be heard. Some gunshots in the city -- the chase for the remaining Georgian snipers continues", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 13:43 "An unexploded cluster bomb of non-Russian design outlawed in 100 countries was found in one of the destroyed houses of Tskhinvali", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 14:16 "The number of the onslaught casualties is now being determined nearing 1500 persons. Military maps with plans to capture Tskhinvali are often found in the packs of dead Georgian soldiers", reports the OSInform News Agency.
 * 23:27 The city came under artilery fire again. The joined Ossetian and Russian forces are trying to surpress it by firing back. They also continue mopping up the Georgian snipers. Moreover, the extermination of snipers continues in the villages that were previously occupied by the Georgian forces. The evacuation of civilians is under way, but some people stay to defend the city or bury their relatives, friends or neighbors.

August 11, 2008


 * 00:55 The Health Minister of South Ossetia Nugzar Gabarayev said that the last group of 100 wounded has been evacuated from the Republican Hospital bombed down by the Georgian artillery.

--Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 08:54, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Also unsourced (Georgian forces)
3 infantry battalions, 2 tank battalions, 2 self-propelled artillery battalions, special forces and sniper units --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 09:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * There is a large degree of misunderstanding and under-reporting going on. While everyone is focused on Tskhinvali, they have failed to take note that the intended campaign is one of return of SO to Georgia, and in fact all Georgian troops are committed to it. Call up of reserves after the fact and withdrawal of troops from Iraq was a necessary evil of offensive planning. There are three border sectors in the front, with each one operating a brigade. The southern sector is the only one where tanks have been seen, but the eastern sector is all mountains, and the western sector is not exactly tank country either. One infantry battalion advanced west of Tskhinvali and another east, with only a company of T-72s (12?) actually seen in the city at any one time (reported), so I don't know where "two battalions" are coming from. Tanks are hideously expensive to run, and loose for Georgia. The two artillery battalions have stayed in Georgian territory al this time. Special forces? If any one saw them, they are not that special! Sniper units? There were claims of sniper fire by Russian troops, but all Georgian infantry units, as are Russian, have a number of snipers in their ranks.--mrg3105 (comms) ♠ ♥ ♦ ♣ 09:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

___________________________________________________

Listed of number of troops and equipment are false, too exegerated —Preceding unsigned comment added by ComanL (talk • contribs) 15:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

edit war
stop it.--66.229.12.186 (talk) 10:53, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian losses
Only from a Georgian statement(s) and sourced. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 10:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I remember reading (don't know were think it was an other wiki article) that OS claim 700 Georgian dead while Georgia said they suffer 300.--66.229.12.186 (talk) 11:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * You've gotta find the link (and make sure it's only about Tskhinvali - Georgians suffered human losses also outside South Ossetia). --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I thought the Georgien casualty figures (200 civilian dead as of yeasterday I read) were reliable, after all they're the only party to this war taking civilian casualties and able to count them properly. But today I read 92 dead altogether, also from Georgian soources. What gives? (They apparently deflate their military casualties while exaggerating the Russian ones#; the numbers are ludicrous. But why deflate the civilian dead your side suffers?) Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 12:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Sherlock100
Please protect this page from the newly registered users. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 11:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Moreschi (talk) (debate) 11:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh yes, help protect the page from "newly registered users" who've been editing this page for three days. Save the world from me, let the crime-dogs flourish!

Do you know what the word "obvious" mean in science? When people say this is "obvious" or "absolutely obvious" or "just evident"? It normally means they are non-scientific and don't have any arguments to support their view. They use emotional arguments and brute force to bulldoze everyone into silence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sherlock100 (talk • contribs) 11:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sherlock100 has been blocked indefinitely. Neıl   ☄   11:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Good. Now I think about it, that might have been M.V.E.i. again...Moreschi (talk) (debate) 11:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Also rangeblocked his IP for 24 hours to give everyone a rest. Neıl   ☄   13:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Nobody is telling me to do so. You are attacking people, disrupting the talk page, and generally being an annoyance.  I've blocked this IP range, too. Neıl    ☄   14:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To Neil: Why are you blocking and deleting me? I've only asked a few questions. I'm NOT defacing anything! Who's telling you to do so? I've been editing this page for three days as an honest editor...(Sherlock) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.234.21.63 (talk) 13:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To Neil: But defacing the whole page I've been collecting is much more of an annoyance. And your bans don't work anyway (I don't even know why, I'm not doing anything to avoid them). I promise not to edit anything, just stop thinking of me as a war criminal. Yes, I admit I verbally attacked that jerk Captain. But calling me a general annoyance! I've collected 80% of the material on this page (as it was until Aug 11), and it was 90%-well-sourced, but he just erased it... I promise to shut up just don't destroy the page! (Sherlock) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.234.6.173 (talk) 14:37, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

To Neil: And please take a look at that "Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog" discussion page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Captain_Obvious_and_his_crime-fighting_dog. It's full of warnings that the guy is deleting pages! As in, "Warning! Please stop. If you continue to blank out or delete portions of page content, templates or other materials from Wikipedia, as you did to Battle of Okinawa, you will be blocked from editing... " and the like! Now check out who's to blame... He's probably asleep now, because we're in Europe and he's probably in the U.S. Do something about him, because he'll come back and deface it again! Including some of the work Top Gun tried t put back.

request page lock
Caption and someone else I forgot his/hers name are having a edit war. I agree with the Cap that the page has too many unsource information and needs to be handle with but having a edit war is both immature and destroys the article which everyone is trying to make better. --66.229.12.186 (talk) 11:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Distance-bar on map please?
Can anyone put a Distance-bar on the map? Thta wd be helpful. (This is a general point: a bar on the map is much better than a scale saying e.g. 1:100000 as different screens show different sizes)
 * Johnbibby (talk) 11:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I doubt there is a public map available, try google maps, although place names seem to be few/missing. The entire battle is fought in a few river valleys very close to each other.Geo8rge (talk) 15:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Inadequate citations
Can somebody check the reference provided in this edit? The site is both in English and Russian, but I can not find this quote in the English text. Also, when furnishing references, specific links to the page in question should be given, not merely a site leaving it up to the user to locate which page on that site has the quote in question. __meco (talk)

I'v been adding this links for three days and they banned me out. I didn't have time to fix all the links. It's on one of the first 1-7 pages of the site. You should look for the same date and hour, and look for that link. It does exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.200.186.150 (talk) 19:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Problems with article, anon causing trouble
Come back if there's something from HRW or at least Memorial.

Also, stop quoting the "OSInform News Agency", whatever it is. (Oh, turns out it's the official spearatist propaganda outlet - way to go while avoiding propaganda.)

Also "black" is not "ethnicity" and "knived" is not word.

Please stop making this article crap. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:10, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:

Television footage that came out of the city showed four Georgian tanks were on fire at the railroad station square with a few dead Georgian soldiers beside them on the ground.

Interfax article from the link, which was supposed to be about this "television footage":

"There are hundreds of killed civilians in Tskhinvali. This is the third instance  of  genocide  of  the  Ossetian  people  on  the part of Georgia.  [Georgian President Mikheil] Saakashvili is the key murderer," he said to Interfax by telephone on Friday. "Resistance in  Tskhinvali  is  mounting. Four Georgian tanks have been hit in the railway station square ," he said.

What the hell is that? Come on people, this is just silly. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I'll post the "Quotations during the battle" section below whole, because it would be hard to get any more biased than this:

August 9, 2008

"The Georgian snipers keep firing at vehicles transporting the wounded to the hospitals of South Ossetia", said Irina Glagoleva, a spokeswoman for the South Ossetia government.

"The women and children in Tskhinvali suffer from thirst. The city has not had any access to water, gas, electricity for 3 days. The cell phones are losing power. The Georgian snipers shoot anyone who tries to get out into the street", reports the OSInform News Agency.

August 10, 2008 The South Ossetia Secretary of State Konstantin Kochiyev told the REGNUM News Agency, "The situation in the Republic of South Ossetia has changed to a catastrophe during the past two days. The city of Tskhinvali no longer exists. The number of dead is uncountable, there seem to be thousands. How many more have been tortured to death by the Georgian aggressors is hard to imagine. This cannot be forgiven. The atrocities of the Georgian troops are beyond measure. South Ossetia will never forgive what has happened to our people. There are many dead bodies of Georgian soldiers and broken vehicles both on the outskirts of Tskhinvali and near its center. Today and last night, the Ossetian fighters continued defending the territory, but the enemy doesn't stop. Our forces are running out. We're waiting for Russia to support. It's not even about hours, it's about minutes."'

What. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 15:28, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

You're sick, and you know it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.234.1.55 (talk) 17:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Main problem here is reliable sourcing. I think the references to reputable Western press are fine. However references to mass media controlled by the combatants (such as ITAR-TASS) should only be used if they are consistent on the both sides of the conflict, or we should provide contrasting views by the both sides. We can not accept a version that is based almost entirely on Russian media.Biophys (talk) 18:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

God, how the hell do you tell reliable sources from unreliable. The most reliable source IS THE PRIMARY SOURCE, the closest to the battle. That's the broken-phone game, relying on secondary sources.... There was also information from BBC, and he deleted it. Add some Georgian info, if you can find it. Don't deface the article! But that's all for nothing, he probably works for someone... I want him choke on his Judas' money... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.200.186.150 (talk) 18:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "how the hell"? Please read WP:Verifiability. Most reliable sources are SECONDARY sources.Biophys (talk) 19:39, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I see the point but that's an innate flaw in wiki -- putting reliability before the truth is absurd. Truth should always prevail, otherwise it's just dumb or crazy. That's non-scientific, because reliability means authority, and authority means conservatism, outdatedness, dumbness, narrowness, shallowness, bulldozing the opponents etc. BTW, I was wrong about that dog-crack. He's not working for anyone, just has low IQ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.200.255.252 (talk) 02:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Problem with you is that if we followed your idea, then nothing on Wikipedia would ever be reliable. Six people can see the same event six ways- or it can be reported in six different ways. By trusting certain sources more than others, we are able to have a more reliable system. Otherwise, if someone claims to death that little green men were spotted controlling Russian soldiers in South ossetia, that would be allowed in. Obviously, that's bullshit. Just because you think something should work one way- based mostly on rumor, it seems- does not mean that should be the way it should function. Now grow a pair and get an account so you can edit too. ;)ShaneMarsh (talk) 14:50, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Posted this already in the South-Ossetian War Talk page
However, as it is also regarding Tskhinvali, here's a short link:  Maybe the article might be of some use... OelnJa (talk) 18:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Top Gun is now stealing (copy/paste) from the media sources
For example, The Sunday Times source:

Ordinary apartment blocks were pounded as the remains of Georgian tanks struck by rocket-propelled grenades stood burning in the middle of the street.

Top Gun "writes":

Ordinary apartment blocks were pounded as the remains of Georgian tanks struck by rocket-propelled grenades stood burning in the middle of the streets.

Someone PLEASE do something about this guy. Like "go away". --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Remove it and post a uw-copyright warning on the user's page. Get four and you get a block. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 18:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I reworded it. Happy?(Top Gun)

Did you do with the rest of your additions? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 18:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Tell me what they are and I will do it. But later, because I am going out at the moment and will do it later.(Top Gun)

Done already.

But I'll tell you what you what to do. A lot of these links were wrong/outdated (and so I removed them), while much of other stuff was unsourced but I left it for now. So, do something constructive and find links for CNs. Put these links with sources and dates (like I do). Try to not re-insert any blatant propaganda and remember to use "reportedly" when in it's just one side's claim. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Why peacekeepers are "former"?
As I know they were not reorganized and as of now perform 'peace enforcement' operation.--Dojarca (talk) 21:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Becaue they are not peacekeeping during war in which they are side. They may be warkeekeepers, though, as their command/government don't agree to ceasefire and/or negotiate. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:25, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They perform their peacekeeping duties. Peace enforcement is a standard peacekeeping task.--Dojarca (talk) 21:34, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Please see the article on peacekeeping to learn the standard peacekeeping tasks. (No, not invading countries and bombing cities, while refusing to negotiate.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I agree. According that article they better should be called peacemakers.--Dojarca (talk) 22:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

False claim, but I'll show you
http://www.effedieffe.com/content/view/4120/183/

Where exactly it reads "180" Georgian soldiers died at Tskhinvali? All I see is "The official said about 200 Georgian soldiers and 37 Georgian civilians have died so far in Russia attacks." without mentioning any details.

Delete it yourself. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Allright, I see I must do it myself. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Are you:
 * ignoring me completely
 * retarded
 * doing this to anger me? --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I told you "no propaganda"
"Heavy fighting was underway on the city outskirts, as at least three Georgian tanks were reported hit."

VS the original source's

"Several Georgian tanks also managed to break through the defense of the city but the South Ossetian forces reported destroyed three of them."

Simply "reported" means reported by independent sources (well, reporters) but not confirmed. This is propaganda and only this (not mentioning these - and others - tanks "broke through", just the rebel claim of success). How long are you on Wikipedia? Learn to write, at last. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:31, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Source trags
DON'T remove tags while not sourcing. This is the last time I'm teaching you how to write on Wikipedia, Mr. Thief. (You can remove unsourced MATERIAL, though.) --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Would you please watch to intonation on your postings. You are getting very close to WP:CIVIL at times. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 21:44, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Sentence rewrite
To remove the fact tag perhaps 'primary' should be 'first'. Change: The Georgian military was based at Gori, while Tskhinvali was the primary objective of the Georgian forces. To:The Georgian military was based at Gori, while Tskhinvali was the first objective of the Georgian forces.

The theory according to the link I posted in the article was that the Georgians were trying to capture Tskhvali and then the Roki tunnel.Geo8rge (talk) 21:57, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

GOD. DAMN. Infobox "Casualties and losses" figures
http://www.effedieffe.com/content/view/4120/183/

WHERE IS THERE THE NUMBER "180"???

WHERE THE FUCK do you see ANYTHING about "180 soldiers killed at Tskhinvali" in "The official said about 200 Georgian soldiers and 37 Georgian civilians have died so far in Russia attacks."

I explained this to you (in the summaries AND here above), I even put "DON'T reinstate links that DON't say things you claim !!!!" in the article's body right there for you to see, but nothing can stop you from reverting this again and again. After POV-pushing and copy/pasting copyrighted texts and unfounded accusations towards me, now this complete idiocy. I'm just speechless. What the fuck indeed. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 22:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Captain here. The number 180 doesn't appear anywhere. If I wasn't new, I would change it back. Top Gun, man, come on. ShaneMarsh (talk) 22:58, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, why not replace it with "approx 200" and semiprotect the article, then? Sorry, didn't notice he doesn't specify they died in that battle. --Illythr (talk) 23:24, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm with Captain here as well. Can't some mod just ban TopGun or something? -- DanteRay (talk) 23:33, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

OK guys. I'll remove this for the last time now. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 23:47, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Although I don't disagree with the sentiment, I'll say it once again, be careful of civility here. Starting a sentence with "where the fuck" is not a sign of civility. --StuffOfInterest (talk) 01:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The reference (Russian, English) for the Russian casualty figures doesn't say "18 killed, 7 missing and 150 wounded" and some of the casualties it talks about are in the conflict zone rather than just this particular battle. Why get so worked up by one set of figures that aren't supported in one particular reference but ignore the fact that the other side's set of figures aren't supported in another reference. The editors that are editing this article for reasons other than the desire to produce a good article in line with Wikipedia's goals need to step away from this article for a while, or at least step away from the distracting little conflicts they're involved in. I recommend a discussion about the figures, rather than an edit war over them. 92.8.254.213 (talk) 04:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgian casualties
Discuss, with references

"about 200 Georgian soldiers and 37 Georgian civilians have died so far in Russia attacks" - the source is "military officials confirmed Sunday". The source is immediately after 3 paragraphs talking about Tskhinvali so it could be specifically about Tskhinvali but the article discusses the wider conflict so it could be a figure for all engagements at that point (EFFEDIEFFE, 10th Aug ). 92.11.162.47 (talk)

"dozens of Georgian troops had lost their lives" - Alexander Lomaia, secretary of Georgia's National Security Council. This is in a paragraph just after discussion of the wider conflict so it's possibly not specifically about Tskhinvali (EFFEDIEFFE, 10th Aug ). 92.11.162.47 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:04, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

South Ossetian casualties
Discuss, with references

"More than 1,400 people" - according to separatist leaders (Telegraph, 08 Aug evening (BST) ). 92.8.254.213 (talk)

"toll at 150 dead" - [Russian] peacekeeping forces estimate (Telegraph, 08 Aug evening (BST) ). 92.8.254.213 (talk)

"At least 2,000 civilians have died in the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali" - Russia's ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko (Reuters, Aug 9 ). 92.8.254.213 (talk)

Russian casualties
Discuss, with references

"13 Russian peacekeepers were killed and up to 70 injured in the fighting" - Russia's ambassador to Georgia, Vyacheslav Kovalenko (Reuters, Aug 9 ). 92.8.254.213 (talk)

2000 VS 150
Russian Peacekeepers said only 150 civilians die while the Rebels say 2000 die,

--66.229.12.186 (talk) 02:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That doesn't actually say "Russian Peacekeepers" and since the low numbers have been coming from the Georgian side, we could suspect that this came from the Georgian peacekeepers. Rmhermen (talk) 04:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)


 * that was one of my concerns but the only time peacekeeper is use is by Russia. But i try to find more information on it.--66.229.12.186 (talk) 06:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There were four sections of peacekeepers - Russian, Georgian, Ossetian and North Ossetian. Rmhermen (talk) 17:27, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Is objective?
Why in the right column there are no surnames of the Georgian commanders? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kachalov (talk • contribs) 07:18, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you know what their names are? Can you provide a reliable source for these names? Neıl    ☄   11:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Mamuka Kurashvili - commander of the Georgian armies in conflict zone (now is wounded) Kachalov (talk) 11:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Renaming this article
Please stop unexplained moves of this article. The present title is good and informative.Biophys (talk) 19:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Infobox
I'd like to add a "citation needed" tag to the infobox image caption - just like here but I can't because the page is semi protected. To get it changed I have to discuss it here on the talk page and reach consensus. The reasons I'd like a "citation needed" tag are....
 * I'm concerned about the blue arrows north east and south west of Tskhinvali (basically all blue arrows that aren't centered on Tskhinvali)
 * Someone has raised a doubt about the location of the red arrows
 * If the movements on the map are the correct movements of opposing forces on 8 August around Tskhinvali and are verifiable, it should be easy enough to add a source or two.
 * I'm not criticising the person that created the map, it's very useful and well drawn, I'd just like the caption to be verifiably correct.

On a slight side note, why is this page even semi protected. The protection request was made by an editor to prevent newly created accounts from editing and carried out  by an admin in order to stop "newbie problems". The semi protection policy is clear though
 * "Semi-protection should not be used as a pre-emptive measure against vandalism that has not yet occurred, nor should it be used solely to prevent editing by anonymous and newly registered users. In particular, it should not be used to settle content disputes."

92.12.21.222 (talk) 10:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The map in first section "The battle"
The map has been moved from the infobox to the first section "The battle". The claim that it shows "Movements of opposing forces around Tskhinvali" is still unsupported by any references. I'd like to add a citation needed tag to the image caption but I can't because the page is semi protected (still not sure why though). Could someone add a citation needed tag to the caption or even better, add references that show those are indeed the movements of forces around Tskhinvali. 92.11.59.194 (talk) 01:15, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Improvements things to do
I have been trying to add more info and ideally some pictures. Esp now that the battle is over, the map is misleading. We need

i) better maps. I mean a proper military map, with proper legends, disposition and movements of forces etc, (incidentally military legends are here). Examples of maps for example, here is one on Issus}, for a modern example [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Map_Soviet_1941_Winter_counteroffensive.jpg here is the Moscow battle.

ii) Pictures. There must be a few we can get, of the city, the fighting which do not have copyright issues, ones which can be displayed. The article look rather empty witout the.

iii) Per Ravi Rikyhave at orbat.com, it was about eight Russian brigades which attacked Tskhinvali. I think an Orbat might be good. A lot of the info on the Tskhinvali battle is available on the S Ossetia War page, it should be transfered here.

And please don't revert every edit. Sparten (talk) 06:42, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * "it was about eight Russian brigades which attacked Tskhinvali" - big mistake or propagation! First, at night 7-8 August, Georgian brigades with heavy arms attacked Tskhinvali and Russian peacekepers, then ~ 12 hours later, Russian brigades have reached Tskhinvali Kachalov (talk) 07:03, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you misunderstood. It was 8 Russian brigades which took part in the battle of Tskhinvali.

Sparten (talk) 08:37, 15 August 2008 (UTC)


 * May be. Attacked, set free, entered - feel a difference. Kachalov (talk) 09:36, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Osinform pic


I'm not sure about the copyright issues. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 21:04, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

The copyright information on their site is a bit vague but seems to imply that images on their site can be freely distributed but require proper attribution. I sent them an email, asking to confirm. Will delete the picture if it turns out that OSinform has a problem with it. Speaking fish 21:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speaking fish (talk • contribs)


 * Got the permission from OSinform via email. They say "use any picture from our site, just attribute"Speaking fish 15:24, 17 August 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Speaking fish (talk • contribs)

Comments by 80.80.111.240
This block of text was inserted into various other sections on this discussion page so I've moved it here instead. 92.11.59.194 (talk) 01:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Please ADD This to the main article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tskhinvali
 * 1) The name of the Lider of South Ossetia Republic of South Ossetia is Eduard Kokoiti
 * 2) The name of the Georgian Forces operation in the South Ossetia is "Clean Field"
 * source:
 * http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2008/08/war_and_peace_washington_prsty.html
 * http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/08/12/name/
 * 3) Another REAL !!! source of the battle history is Russia news portal http://en.rian.ru/trend/osset/
 * Add video link please http://go.mail.ru/search_video?q=%D0%EE%F1%F1%E8%FF%20%C3%F0%F3%E7%E8%FF%20%C2%EE%E9%ED%E0
 *  —Preceding unsigned comment(s) added by 80.80.111.240 (talk) around 08:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC) 

Military casualties
Will someone who is a registared editor change the data on military losses. An edit has been made in the infobox with a reference that says 78 Russian soldiers were killed during the battle. In that case the next sentence which is at the bottom of the article should be changed, it says:

Military losses are also unknown or unclear with the Russian claim of 25 Russian soldiers dead or missing and 150 wounded by the afternoon of August 10.

This should be changed to something like: Russian forces stated to have lost 78 soldiers with another 150 wounded during the fighting by the afternoon of August 10.

Also the Georgian military losses should be changed from Unknown to 300+ killed because here is a reference [] that says the Georgian Ministry of Defence claiming to have confirmed 160 soldiers killed and 300 missing. Assuming the 300 missing are missing in South Ossetia, which is logical. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.216.235.26 (talk) 18:18, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Georgia lost total 133 soldiers in the whole conflict, but not in Tskhinvali

Russian figures regarding Georgian attack on Tskhinvali are Wildly Exaggerated
So far all reports from the ground, including the Human Rights Watch report, show that the official figure of 2,000 who died as the result of the "unprovoked Georgian attack" is wildly exaggerated, by at least a factor of 10. So far NO Russian assurance ("There are no Russian troops in Gori..." "We will leave Gori tomorrow...."  "Why would we blow up a railway bridge..") have been pure fabrications. The Russians are clearly the aggressors in this war.Apostle12 (talk) 07:57, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not Russian official figure but an initial estimate. 133 killed SO civilians have been identified so far Alæxis¿question? 08:12, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * 2000 - it is number from Kokoity, 'separatist' S.O. leader. He gave it in the night after the BM-21("Grad") bombing of Tskhinvali. "Grad" have no gun sight, it is directing on a area by angle. 133 - identifyed bodies and graves, some left unidentifyed, number will grow.
 * occasion to Russia to lead troops in S.O. gave Saakashvilli by this attack
 * there were provocations from south-osetians, separatists, which Russia support
 * there is no civilian man in Tskhinvali, who are not children, woman or old man. it is military town, held by Kokoity's paramilitaries, person, who's buisness is smuggling
 * this battle is not first aggresion of Georgian troops. Tskhinvali was attacked in 1991. See also this
 * for more than 15 years Georgia isn't controlling this region (this means never after Soviet Union disintegration)
 * this is a kindled by US-Russia confrontation war between different ethnic groups Carn (talk) 21:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for taking the time to clarify several matters. Question:  Do you tend to believe the internal stories in the Russian press, or do you assume the reporting is purposefully slanted, as it was during Soviet days? Apostle12 (talk) 07:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There is storys on TV about Saakashvili's mental illness (almost all TV chanels with wide demographic spred area declined on-air technique long time ago), there is wide talking about Georgian illegitimate actions, and lopsided view on Russia's actions (about some of them they are not talking). In some gutter press there were messages about Saakashvili suicide attempt - but in all there is no massive falsehood as i see, just lopsided view.
 * I should say, that Soviet period make russian people do not belive state press, but population mood is anti-Georgian and American government, so they like conforming to this mood rhetoric.
 * the "Russian google" - Yandex, have 50% pro-georgian news in it's Яndex.News section the most popular liberal radio station Echo of Moscow have a programmes with dissidents (Sergei Kovalev) or just acrid journalists like Yulia Latynina and others. But it also have interview with imperialist-minded Alexander Prokhanov and else.
 * You can revise edition and use quotes: "Saakashvili is man, who wanted to solve problems, and Putin - the man, who made problems. It is very important. Think: Saakashvili can solve problems with inappropriate ways, can make a situation worst in case of problem solution, but you can't say about any of his action that he wanted to make problem. It's like Bush in Irak: he wanted to solve problem, not create it" (Yulia Latynina)

<!--READ THIS =)

Ю. ЛАТЫНИНА: Good evening. On air Julia Latynina. Phone of the air 363-36-59, SMS 985 970-45-45.

You know, I, at last, have started to dial yesterday to those my friends familiar who were at war in South Ossetia, and here with what I wish to begin. Here imagine, the person who there was from the very beginning speaks with me, sat there under "Grad". I will not name his name, he does not love advertising. The softest word concerning Saakashvili which he says, it, of course, "stinker". Here, imagine this monologue which I will say for the person, only not a soft maiden voice, and such tired man's." I, here, cannot understand, - the person speaks, - that he wanted. Well, well, it would level all city with the earth, it over open sights beat with "Grad". Beat without ceasing. If I is not the eyewitness, I would not tell it. By the morning we have receded. We were ambushed – they have adjusted a place where we went. One was lost, at us two strongly wounded, one is contused strongly, at me too a contusion good. It beat a city all night long. The next night, almost day. Besides, that ironed tanks – left, again beat artillery, again came tanks. And I do not remember to understand that he wanted, stinker. Well, how many it has beaten people ".

And, let us assume, I imagine that I will speak with Saakashvili or any other high-ranking Georgian official, and the high-ranking Georgian official to me will tell that Moscow released at all millions, and, probably, for billion dollars, on the joint South Ossetia enterprise for struggle against Georgia that therefrom there were continuous acts of terrorism: we will recollect police station explosion in Burn, we will recollect, what quantity of the Russian officers, apparently, just from South Ossetia came. How much I remember, those four Russian гэрэушника which have been detained in Georgia – well, I can confuse – they too from South Ossetia have arrived. That in reply to the announcement of cease-fire firing in Prisi and Tamarasheni was distributed. That Georgia did not have a variant, except how to be at war with this South Ossetia "Hezbollah" – the same as at Israel was a variant to be at war with Lebanon because not to be at war meant to cease to be the state. And I cannot understand, how I will explain to one person, let us assume, Saakashvili that my Osset friend is not fooled by Kokojty the insurgent. And I cannot understand, how I will explain to this Ossetin that Saakashvili not stinker, and the president of Georgia.

Here what has happened? I keep mind about two examples comparative. One comparative example occurs now, it is called Azerbaijan. It is the country which has lost 20 percent of territory – Nagornyj Karabah, and 1,5 million refugees. Probably, the big temptation to solve a problem of Nagornogo Karabaha, especially, by the way, now, and nevertheless we see that Ilham Aliev is kept from this temptation. However, it is necessary to tell, as in it because of a fence do not throw apples. I think of other precedent. This precedent has happened with Germans Czechoslovak in Sudetes. If you remember, when Hitler has started to grow, the first problem which has happened, was with судетскими Germans. They lived in Czechoslovakia, and the Czechoslovak government was ready it to offer any degree of an autonomy, but that is why during this moment when Hitler has started to grow, sudet Germans, no, they demanded only to join in Germany. Also remember, what has occurred after such history with судетскими Germans?

Actually, what has occurred for this week? Well, the first that has occurred, is Michael Saakashvili's absolute defeat because from the point of view of those purposes which it put before itself(himself) – reunion of territorial integrity of Georgia, he has lost. The second that has occurred, is Vladimir Putin's victory from the point of view of objects in view because if an object in view is the satisfaction of some personal feelings in relation to the Georgian president, and I think that it is very important role played, and personal authority strengthening both these purposes are reached. However, the West has not supported us. Yes, actually, not only the West. Us, in my opinion, anybody, except Cuba, has not supported, yes like still Venezuela. Even Armenia, which our ally and at which that Nagornyj Karabah, and that it has not supported us. Also we can see that the dollar has in this time grown, in my opinion, already for 6 or 7 percent that in transfer means here that: That the share market has not simply fallen, as it has fallen simply "Mechel" on 65 billion. After action "Mechel" began to cost cheaper. And here after history with war with Georgia foreign investors began not to sell simply the action, and they began to fix the profit, to buy on roubles dollars and to take out these dollars from the country. That is here these of 6 percent of dollar growth in relation to rouble is, accordingly, that quantity of money which are taken out from the country, and hardly is close to it will return. Well, understand, it is obvious that strengthening of the share market was not set as by the purpose of this war, therefore silly to abuse that it has fallen. As well as in a case with "Mechel", this money anywhere do not share. Here those of 65 billion to which the market when prime minister Putin has promised has fallen to send to Zyuzin the doctor, they anywhere do not share – they have turned to the power. Here in the same way that money which have left from the share market now, they too anywhere do not share – they have turned to the power, and it is the power of prime minister Putin.

Let's look now that has occurred, in details enough. Perhaps, still early and, maybe, it not so much statements will be, how many questions, but I would like to look in details as one behind another occurred, military things. I not the military expert, but how there was it in the war, and define a present configuration, because war it in general such piece when some seconds define that was then forever. Napoleon Marengo loses, and to it the general to the Misinformation to the aid comes and it appears to Marengo won. Napoleon Vaterloo, and then here wins, you see somewhere there Pears was late in wood, and instead of it Blucher has come. And all. That is war is such thing when the victory gets not owing to some laws, and owing to a combination of laws and accidents.

Really, we see that Russia long prepared for war, and this summer. And the first time, probably, this war should begin in Abkhazia. There were extensive plans of intrusion into Top Kodore which are now almost realised. And then Saakashvili has made everything that this war has not occurred. Then we see that Matthew Brajza flied to Georgia, it discussed brought down unmanned aircraft. Saakashvili has do one's damnest: it was clearly visible that what Saakashvili's plans theoretical about Abkhazia would not be, and I will remind that in the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Georgia in offices cards of the Abkhazian coast hang, as Mecca as Jerusalem, nevertheless it was clear that Saakashvili has made everything to prevent this war, and it has been prevented. In South Ossetia this time it has not made it. We now say much that was necessary correctly пиарить a situation in South Ossetia that it was necessary to start there the international journalists and to show, how it there is heated and as provokes Saakashvili the South Ossetia people. And I should tell that it is necessary to explain correctly that it is Saakashvili the first have attacked South Ossetia. I should tell that is correct пиарить this situation it was impossible, because … Well, here, come to South Ossetia, and yes, I should tell that you see there the Georgian aggression because you come on one post in one end of a city and see that there the Georgian soldier who kept guard – the car simply with civilians through a post here went – the Georgian soldier has struck on it the automatic machine, a dent on a cowl. On other post on other end of a city during the same moment of any old man Osset have beaten, yes so it is good that it has got into hospital. You come to this hospital – really, the old man beaten by the Georgian soldiers lies. By the way, it is unique hospital in a city of Tskhinvali – there did not smell as medicines when I there was. Probably, somewhere in other place money left. And here this Georgian aggression you see. And should tell that it justifies nothing, because when on a cowl of the civilian the military man beats, it means that for it the state answers. But that thus to you the South Ossetia authorities do not tell, and that, naturally, very quickly you learn itself: that on a cowl have struck because the day before in the afternoon the Georgian old man in village has gone to collect brushwood and has there and then run into any extension which was literally at it behind the house in wood, and has blown up in shreds. And when you ask the South Ossetia PR managers, madam Irina Gagloevu, the chairman of information committee, apparently, that has occurred to this Georgian old man who has blown up, she answers:" Well, how, really it is not clear? ". The sense of its answer consists that, of course, the extension was put too by Georgians, probably, to have possibility next day to strike on a cowl this unfortunate"Volga". But all is very difficult for taking out it on the screen any CNN – CNN will not believe that the extension was put by Georgians. Here a simple example who forced intensity.

In the same Abkhazia anything similar was not. Abkhazia is too region which at all does not wish to be Georgian which has defended the de facto independence in war of 1992. To Abkhazia, in Galsky area, Georgians have returned. Well, apparently, it would be very easy, that there all time any extensions too blew up and any fights flashed. But is not present, in Abkhazia it was not. There there was a share of accidents. There too, happened, something will blow up. Happened, there will plunder the car with money for peacemakers, only it will then be found out that it was made almost by Russian, whether абхазы, I do not remember who, but not Georgians have made it. And when, let us assume, on the prime minister of Abkhazia Ankvaba has been made two attempts successively, he never declared that they were made by Georgians as all Abkhazia would laugh. Анкваб respected opinion of the fellow citizens, it did not twist it something in brains.

Here, that occurs was very heavy p.r. the South Ossetia point of view. When I was in South Ossetia, just before it there was very much a bad story in Top Kodore when mister Emzar Kvitsiani, local svan, has acted on the Russian TV almost in Michael Leonteva's program, has told that he declares independence in Kodore that he will struggle against Saakashvili. And further at mister Kvitsiani it has turned out nothing, because the Georgian police in Kodore has entered and it somewhere has escaped. I do not know, now it in Abkhazia or in Moscow. But the essence of this history consists that when I have arrived to South Ossetia and began to ask them about stories with Kvitsiani, I have heard from Osset officials as the firm version that, it appears, Kvitsiani was the provoker specially employed by Saakashvili that Saakashvili had possibility to occupy Top Kodore. Should tell that such point of view that has occurred to mister Kvitsiani, I did not hear not only in Abkhazia, but also, probably, at same Mishi Leonteva who just showed mister Kvitsiani on the TV. Probably, it is very strange, if on the Russian TV, ORT and RTR, the Georgian spy has got.

And when I, for example, asked mister Kokojty, whether Russia had the right to come into the Chechen Republic, he easy answered me that had, and that that Russia has made with the Chechen Republic, in any way it is impossible to compare that Georgia has made with Ossetia because Russia did not cancel an autonomy of the Chechen Republic. Here is how in these conditions to conduct public relations of the South Ossetia point of view is as hard how to conduct public relations of the point of view of Yasser Arafat. Though, once again I repeat, it does not mean that the Palestinian will be glad, if it will be grasped by Israel, and no Palestinian cannot explain that Yasser Arafat, maybe, uses it in own interests.

What has made Saakashvili? Point the first. After Saakashvili declared unilateral cease-fire, its army during this moment has already finished fighting expansion and Saakashvili declares, as far as I understand now that it did not have other exit how to begin war, first, because there was a reciprocal bombardment of the Georgian villages, secondly, because 150 units of an armour have passed the Roksky tunnel. Frankly speaking, if 150 units of an armour really after the armistice announcement have passed the Roksky tunnel war to begin at least was silly, because it was clear that Russia will interfere. Most likely it is possible to assume that Saakashvili counted that Kokojty has bothered Russia that he is engaged trotskizm that he is engaged ad-libbing and that Saakashvili counted on long expansion of the Russian armies. I will remind, what even when Basayev has attacked Dagestan, there already after declaration of war twelve days during the Dagestan campaign our army was developed. Here it was developed very quickly.

After that Saakashvili began to iron Tskhinvali "Gradami". Georgians say that they conducted any aim fire on buildings some at least. It is important to understand that the technics available at the Georgian, that is "Grady" and guns, it did not provide any aim shooting. Here those dot, very expensive blows which applied both Americans, and Israelis, here this technics at the Georgian it was not simple. As it was found out, both Russian, and the Georgian technology of destruction of insurgents in a city, she leans against that technics which at them is, and "Hailstones" to conduct aim fire it is impossible, it shoots on the areas. What has occurred further? Actually, it is necessary to tell, here this technical problem absolutely predetermines existing relations not only the Ossetin, but also, I think, the world community to that has occurred: Because if you conduct dot fire, you have any chance to justify the operation and if you on the population shoot "Hailstones", probably, it is not so good way to convince the population that this population the dictator even if it is the truth corrects.

What has occurred further? Georgians have seized Tshinvalom, have blown up road, a post on which could take place the Russian tanks. And, actually, if the Russian management expected that Kokojty with its environment, Kokojty which have transformed Tshinval in completely militarised city where, in effect, women and children were the peace population, and the others were or directly military, either volunteers, or civil guardsmen, or something else, here if the Russian management counted that only by means of the Russian weapon and money of Kokojty can keep this city the answer was "is not present". The Georgian artillery operated against Tskhinvali where more successfully, than the Russian artillery against Grozny. And the most surprising has appeared that that mode which some years about war shouted, shouted "wolves, wolves, wolves" – здрасте, did not expect. In a city, it has appeared, not that medicines are not present – water is not present! Now, when ask, why in a city there was no water, answer that water was cut with Georgians because it went from outside the Georgian. Well, either she has blown up, or it cut, but, forgive, it that, has gone yesterday from outside the Georgian? Before it with another, whether that, the parties went? Here once again: if as surprises, it how easily Georgian army has seized a city, basically. It, probably, really came into a city, ironed it, then departed, put bombing attack, again came. But it to you not Grozny of 1995. Thus the Georgian army which as we see, has proved to be very not bad from the point of view of the reached results – I do not discuss now moral aspect, now results I discuss – it could not cut off course really all the same to the Russian armies and it could not blow up the Roksky tunnel. This heavy action. It is clear that it is very heavy to land a landing far enough in back of the enemy, and to blow up this tunnel, I think, less tons of an explosive it is impossible. Nevertheless, it is those problems which should be put, and it is not absolutely clear, why they have not been put and have not been executed.

At last, we pass to the important point. Some time, some hours, practically to three o'clock in the afternoon of Friday our Russian management, probably, really fluctuated what to do and whether to give Kokojty to its own destiny as it so has "remarkably proved. After that at three o'clock president Medvedev declared that, yes, Russia sends the army, and in two hours to us declared that tanks have entered into a city of Tskhinvali. After that to us three days told, every day told again that Tskhinvali is taken. Thus to us told that here in this taken city absolutely cleared of all armies, for some reason the Georgian snipers kill children and throw them under tanks – probably, there was nothing to be engaged to Georgians during this moment more how to hunt for children and women. Also have told that there two thousand killed peace the Ossetin. Not absolutely clearly, how many from them civil guardsmen because as I have already told, at least half of adult man's population of South Ossetia are civil guardsmen.

Ю. ЛАТЫНИНА: Good evening. On air Julia Latynina. Phone of the air 363-36-59, СМС 985 970-45-45.

I continue conversation that occurred in Tskhinvali on Friday when the Russian TV has reported that the Russian tanks have entered into it. Here Irina Kuksenkovoj's article, the correspondent of "the Moscow member of the Komsomol" which during this moment sat in a staff with peacemakers, on it Georgians shot. "At some instant, - writes Kuksenkova, - military men understand that it is everything, we are densely clamped". It is that moment when the Russian TV reports about occurrence of tanks. "Near a staff plant a fire and hastily burn down секретку. Papers blaze in a moment – over them have poured gasoline. Afterwards from ПМ shoot a black confidential suitcase, a sledge hammer breaks special transmitter". Further, in the evening already, that is on the night of Saturday, about seven evenings together with scouts, together with group of fighters of Kuksenkova tries to reach Dzhavy, there are on foot some hours, till four mornings." Over a head shells fly. In wood the most dangerous – the Georgian diversionary groups. Scouts say that the weapon at them only on an hour and a half fight ". For this article that on Friday Tshinval was not clearly whose, but, more likely, Georgian, in some days when this article left, it then have not started up in a staff, those people with whom it sat under bombardment have not started up. I do not know, what general has given this order, but it is necessary to remind that during this moment on a city still the Georgian artillery with might and main worked, that is it should have started up in a staff, it have thrown out on streets of a raked city.

What was next day? Next day, on Saturday, the column of 58th Army led by commander Hrulevym has tried to break in a city bypassing the partitioned off roads. There was very much with it of journalists. There was from "Member of the Komsomol" Alexander Kots, there was Sakirko from "the Moscow member of the Komsomol". They sat on the reservation with the commander and they were ambushed. The commander has been wounded, Sasha Kots has been wounded. Actually, Victor Sakirko describes, how it occurred. I will remind that Hrulev sat on a head armored troop-carrier, and it is very important, because the commander of 58th Army did not begin to send ahead of itself the major. He understood, where it goes. It has gone itself. He behaved not as the thick staff general, he behaved as the hero. And here they are ambushed. Сакирко understands that it is necessary to search for shelter on the earth. When he understands it, I quote:" Has seen the automatic machine of metres directed on from six almost in an emphasis and the girl in the NATO form which aimed in me. To it was years 25, this Georgian of small growth enough attractive ". Сакирко shouts to the Georgian:" I'am the journalist ". It has lowered the automatic machine and during the same instant has been cut by automatic turn which has broken it half-and-half. They run further, fire the madman, and Sasha Kots together with Sakirko will come across one more Georgian submachine gunner. Саша has shouted:" We are journalists ". In the answer has sounded:" And I'am the killer ". The Georgian shoots at them from a grenade cup discharge, gets to the next soldier, and he is killed running hardly aside by the Russian major. The column has been crushed. The battalion has simply ceased to exist.

Why I quote all it so in detail? Because during this moment to us on the TV tell that in Tskhinvali the complete control, and here only is the Georgian snipers who run, cut a throat to children and throw them under tanks. Here those who tell it, humiliate not the Georgian. They humiliate our army. They humiliate general Hruleva who has headed a column, and has correctly made, though it have crushed. To us tell during this moment that the Ossetin was lost two thousand, and soldiers-peacemakers – 70. Those who tell it, think that they tell about atrocities the Georgian. But, excuse, if peace population was lost two thousand, and the soldier – 70, means, army – reptiles. Means, their army has thrown, and could make these marauders one finger. A reality other. I do not know, how many was lost the soldier – probably, all the same it is a bit more 70. But here Tatyana Lokshina from "Human Rights Watch" says that in Tshinvalsky hospital 44 corpses, thus doctors insisted that to them brought all. Probably, it all the same not final figure. "In the majority, - writes Lokshina, - who these killed and wounded men, men in something, in the military form – however, in Tskhinvali almost all men and were in this or that power structure. They, probably, participated in fights".

Actually, once again, why I so in detail tell it? Because the Georgian army, we see, conducted long fights. It battled not bad. Not on "five", well, probably, on "four". And the Russian army conducted long fights. We were quickly developed, we have passed in Tskhinvali on very narrow mountain road which Georgians could not take under the control. And the Russian army battled much better, than it did it in the Chechen Republic. And to tell instead that any marauders have run away from us, is means to humiliate army. It very much an important point: humiliating the opponent, you always humiliate yourselves, you do not uplift yourselves. Here the remarkable certificate resulted by Vadim Rechkalovym. It results the certificate of inhabitant Tshinvala Marina Kumaritovoj which tells that occurred in Tskhinvali:" We, as silly women, sit between two armies and we listen: if shoot from outside a market, means, Georgians and if from outside stadium – means, either Ossetins, or Russian. And we see that force of hatred of the Osset people to Georgians during this moment is that that it is ready to blow up, if only together with Georgians ".

What occurred after that? After that there was that the western community named the inadequate answer. There was a Russian army in Burn. Cassette bombs, apparently, with which bombed whether reservists, whether sometimes got and to the peace population. And the most remarkable was from all event, of course, is Abkhazian army which bombed at first bombers Kodorsky gorge, and then also shot on the purposes rockets, probably, "Point". Here when I have heard about rocket attacks of the Abkhazian army, I have understood that the new superstate there was born. Forgive, and space armies at Abkhazia are not present? In completion of absurdity to us have told that the Russian commandoes did not interfere in Top Kodore, but then to us have informed that the Russian commandoes have grasped there a card of intrusion into Abkhazia. The most sad with Top Kodorem consisted in all this history, of course, that Abkhazia has no right to Top Kodore. If Abkhazia wishes to be independent if Abkhazia is de facto independent, it is very difficult to win it, that, here, the international law says that Abkhazia is a territory of Georgia; on concepts – абхазы have received, have twice won the right to independence; but from the point of view of legal Top Kodore – the part of Georgia, and from the point of view of actual is Svanetija where абхазы never lived.

Actually, really, the quantity of lies which has followed, actually, already after clearing by the Russian army of South Ossetia exceeded all conceivable limits, and I think that the history about the Abkhazian bombers was переплюнута only one: with general Nogovitsynym who explained that happens in Burn. He has told that here this criminal negligence was shown by the Georgian authorities which have escaped when with them wished to leave on contact. Well, if to consider that on contact wished to leave cassette bombs, it, as they say, "…" (a phrase in English). What me most of all резануло in this lies and in this war? You know, lies in the war happens a miscellaneous. If it is military cunning – for God's sake. If it is simple indignation on the enemy – well, besides, ряди god. Here costs, there, Plutarha of any Agesilaj or at Ksenofonta in "Anabasis" have any Agesilaj and tells about Persians of the army that barbarians by the nature slaves. Well, at present of it as – excitation national and religious break a set? And so – Ksenofont is a treasury of world thought, understand. Here is how to estimate from the point of view of political correctness the statement of any Agesilaja that "you only look at what Persians barbarians and what they not civilised, and you have enough for it of them to undress, look at their white and friable bodies, they do not go naked – means, not civilised, means, barbarians". It is first sign of the barbarian – naked do not go; ancient Greeks loved nakedness.

Actually, considerably that actually if not to speak about this lies used for encouragement of armies and use for military cunnings the overwhelming majority of time in a world history, actually, could be extolled military valour of the opponent. In "Illiada" Greeks could win Troy, but Hector describe as the valorous soldier. The Russian armies in 1812 could battle to Frenchmen, but thus nobody abused Mjurata or Neja the coward. Here from the moment of Ex-Prussian war, that is since that moment when the people, making decisions on war, face face to face the opponent ever less, becomes fashionable to represent the enemy the villain. I will pay your attention, really that it not the XX-th centuries an idea and at all the First World War. It has begun with Ex-Prussian war. But that I heard in the Russian mass-media – perhaps, surpassed even habitual history of the sample of 1941 because most of all I was amazed with the following history: there is a peacemaker Russian, and the commentator tells that at the peacemaker shot that this treachery, and that about it it is necessary to bring an action, and that for shooting the Georgian on the peacemaker should be court. Well, here already matter is not that there is a concept of jurisdiction and if will kill the Negro in the New York underground, probably, it not a question of jurisdiction of Bastrykina even if this Negro will be killed by Bush. But the matter is that if the person costs with the weapon it has two options: or to shoot at the answer, or to bring an action. To unite these two things it is impossible. These two things unites only шпана. To shoot at the answer, and then to bring an action is not psychology of the soldier, it is psychology шпаны.

I recollect, by the way, about it remarkable absolutely history. Actually, same approximately the history occurred at us in the Chechen Republic. Because – that occurred in the Chechen Republic? The Russian army was at war. The Chechen came, saw that at it the wife is killed, children are killed that the killed not born child sticks out of a belly of the killed pregnant woman of the wife, and it was called as constitutional order prompting. And when after that the Chechen took the automatic machine, it was called as the gangster. It was very much the important point. It has appeared that in this war to kill someone for the Russian soldier this prompting of a constitutional order and if in the answer start to shoot at you, that party – not the soldier, and the gangster, and that party if it managed to catch and be not to killed thus, sits till now in the Russian prisons. The same we see here because, children, or you shoot at the answer in the opponent – yes, Georgians shot at peacemakers the first, peacemakers shot at the answer – or you bring an action. It is impossible to make both that, and another. And the one who humiliates the opponent, that humiliates itself(himself). Georgians have bravely attacked, and general Hrulev bravely battled to them. To humiliate the opponent, to crush it is it the first line of outlook шпаны. If the opponent is strong, шпана it does not touch. If it is weak – it finishes it voluptuously. And the higher in this sense philosophy шпаны, is what philosophy? Correctly, it is fascism. It not simply to kill the Jew in an oven, but also to explain to everything that this Jew – a bough, the reptile, the swine, deserved that and that it on a life is not right.

It is necessary to tell that here it is philosophy of the small person, and any philosophy of small people has a second question: after you have destroyed the real opponent, the real contender, after you have exhausted it to degree of the villain which, let us assume, instead of being at war with real-life army, real-life civil guardsmen, appears, is not at war, but runs on a city and throws pregnant women and children under tanks, here after you so have destroyed it, you wish to create to yourselves a certain super-power contender against whom you battle. Here, fascists, they battled not simply against Jews, and against Masonic plot. What we now explain? That we, it appears, battled not simply against the Georgian, and against the USA. Here in what the role of the USA in attempt of Georgia to grasp Ossetia was expressed? What Condoleeza Rice has told on July, 10th Saakashvili "do not give in on provocation", and now says, what "we will send you the humanitarian help"?

Hallo, speak, you on air. Hello.

СЛУШАТЕЛЬНИЦА: Hello. My name is the NATO. At me such question. Tell, please, if Georgia attacked peace South Ossetia, in that case why they coolly observed, how within several days took out the peace population? Why they have not made it somehow suddenly?

Ю. ЛАТЫНИНА: the NATO, I here did not say that Georgia attacked peace South Ossetia. I said that Georgia in every possible way provoked. However, understand, president Saakashvili should be responsible for that it does. And, actually, for me really it is very big question that Saakashvili has attacked, and it is very big tragedy of Georgia. Understand, in what business: if there was a speech about the country which is fed with war which is fed with that creates situations that plunges the citizens into hysterics it would not be so is insulting. But Georgia represented – I do not know that it represents now – absolutely unique phenomenon on the post-Soviet territory because Saakashvili was not simply the person who reformed economy, it was the person who reformed the nation as Peter I in Russia or, say, let us assume, reformed Pinochet in Chile. It was the country where policemen did not take bribes. Yes, because in it huge salaries paid, and on pensions saved. It was the country where all was on sale really from advertised biddings. My strongest impression of Georgia is when I go on quay Batumi and prime minister Adzharii explains to me that here it is the government house, we have sold it, here it is Office of Public Prosecutor, we have sold it, here this Ministry of Internal Affairs, we have sold it, because on quay there should be a real estate in a kind "Hajatov" and "Marriottov", and the government will leave somewhere in mountains where is cheaper. And it was attempt to drag Georgia to Europe.

Actually, I think, what this absolute discrepancy of outlooks, because the existing Russian power – well how she lives was the main problem in relations of Georgia and Russia? She lives: YUKOS, "Mechel", company "Ганвор" which trades in the Russian oil. On four billion buy the luxury goods in the city of New York, and on five billions buy the luxury goods in the city of Moscow. Ponder upon these figures. It is thus clear that America lives a little bit better, than we on the average. Also there is Russia which lives so, and there is the Kremlin, which wishes to impose it some phantom problems to strengthen own power, and there is Georgia, which vein in another way. To break all it is one war – very heavy history. If you ask me why I think that it just because Georgia is located on caucasus. Because that Saakashvili has made is not nonsense, it not emotions, it at all a miscalculation. It, forgive that I now quote the words in "Gazete.ru", it is caucasus in Saakashvili's shower. These infinite Georgian понты. Because in all it brand new, with иголочки, the state which was Georgia, terry revanchism was surprising; there was that when speech came about the lost territories at once to you started to talk about Sukhumi as if it is Mecca, and about Tskhinvali as if it is Jerusalem – both those, and those it is necessary to grasp, both those, and they are our primordial territories. And it was not Europe because, excuse, Germans do not dream of return of Kenigsberga. It was at all Serbia because Serbia has refused Kosovo for the sake of an input in the European Union. Here it was reaction of the Caucasian person to a train of infinite and absolutely skilful provocations.

Me still ask about West reaction that will occur. And I think that sanctions special in relation to Russia, excuse, will not be. There will be any attempts of condemnation, to us will swing a head, to shake finger. Even if will exclude Russia from "eight" – well and that will change what Medvedev will not be in "eight"? And so now it is not appreciable that it is president Medvedev made decisions that occurred during war. Secondly, understand, actually the West has one way of reaction. Putin not Stalin, also nothing to say that Russia rises from knees, the terrible Russian bear rises from knees because unlike Stalin Kreml сейчасшний are quite such commercially focused people. If you wish to threaten these people do not threaten to exclude them from "eight", threaten to accept in the WTO, start to understand with different Swiss accounts and the different Swiss companies. Will not understand – then do not rustle. Besides, I do not think that West reaction will be very strong because Putin after all has not won Georgia. He in this sense very precisely knew when to recede. Here at Saakashvili brakes are not present, and at Putin – is.

In this sense between them one difference, and that difference that Saakashvili is a person who wished to solve problems, and Putin is a person who creates them. It is very important. Because think: Saakashvili can solve problems in the unusable ways, can make only worse in case of the problem decision, but about its one action it is impossible to tell that he wished to play a dirty trick. Here it as Bush in Iraq: Bush tried to solve a problem, instead of to create a problem. It actually difference of democracies from the countries-derelicts: democracies try to solve problems – not always correctly, not always willingly; the countries-derelicts create problems, create situations. Therefore I never will believe, excuse that in South Ossetia Russia protected our citizens. When 140 thousand Russian citizens in Turkmenia deprive of the Russian citizenship because firm with an authorised capital stock in 12 thousand the dollars, registered in the Hungarian settlement Chebdy, named "Juraltransgaz", acquires the right to prorolling of Turkmen gas on "Gazprom" pipes and when within the limits of all these contracts 140 of thousand Russian citizens are on sale in slavery of Turkmenbashi, it means that this government is not so high appreciates our Russian citizens.

When in the country semifascist ideology in relation to Caucasians when the same southern Ossetin if it arrives to Russia, will receive on the person from the first cop when beat the Hero of Russia Magomeda Tolboeva cops in the underground – do not speak to me, please, that those fascists who here shoot scenes "executions of invaders" Caucasian and hang out them in the Internet, and so they кударца which lives in South Ossetia, will protect? Кударец because he lives in South Ossetia, they will protect it, and иронец or дигорец – here it, probably, already invaders?

Here who can react and has already reacted are young democracies. Pay attention to a difference of reaction to an event. On the one hand, France or Germany which, in general, yes, покивали осуждающе heads, even have offered something. And Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland which reacted almost immediately and very sharply. Poland, between other, immediately – the first foreign policy consequence of war in Georgia – has concluded the contract from the USA. Forgive, you do not remember, why Poland could not conclude the contract from the USA about installation there the American antimissile defence? Because Poland wished to receive from the USA much more the weapon. Because Americans were ready to give only on 200 million dollars, and Poland wanted on 20 billion. That is it not Americans wished to impose to Poland the protection, and Poland wished more protection to receive from Americans. In this sense that could Saakashvili create is it could create a ring of young democracies round Russia, its absolutely isolating. To a meeting in a week.-->
 * Kovalev: I will ansver with a quote from Galich: «Citizens, Fatherland in danger. Our tanks on forein land».
 * Maxim Shevchenko: «the one, who find powers give a dare to tyranny have a right to have a freedom. The one, who have not finded powers - let them live at the heel of tyrant. "In struggle you will find your right" - this is and remain fundamental principle of democracy.»
 * «Abkhazia is seriously democratic state, there all questions solving on traditional collective gathering»
 * "Kosovo state was made by NATO occupation army, and nations of Abkhazia (abkhazian, armenian, russian, greek, jew, estonian) was establishing their own state. All the people, who were fighting in abkhazian army have made their state by themselves and claim it's sovereignty. And albanian from Kosovo have come there at the point of american's bayonet." Carn (talk) 11:42, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I see that US mainstream of press is slanted too. Talking about Gori and showing ruins in Tshinvalli, cutting the line then somebody asking Rice about equality of Iraq and this situation. Or this fake story with a girl on Fox news . Or the fact, that first was talking about big Russia invade small Georgia, and forgeting of war crime of Saakashvilli... do you feel that US media is slanted, (not Comedy Central but BBS and Fox) or not? Carn (talk) 15:41, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * What is really biased - it is the Georgian TVCarn (talk) 18:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


 * In the United States, every news outlet has its prejudices; some things are accentuated and some things are ignored. In this sense, the "slant" exists, but it is not orchestrated from "on-high"--everything is available, and anyone can say, write, or broadcast anything. To be fully informed, an American citizen must read widely in order to be able to see the real picture and discern what is really happening. Of course, even with our totally free press, few people make the effort to do that; mostly they read and watch sources that agree with their own prejudices. But at least they have the opportunity. That opportunity does not exist in nations whose freedom of the press has been compromised or destroyed--Russian and China, for example.


 * Here are my conclusions: Russia planned the invasion of Georgia for a long time. They knew they would need some pretext for invading, so they encouraged rebel forces, first in Abkhazia then in South Ossetia, to attack Georgian nationals. Saakashvilli wisely ignored the first provocation in Abkhazia, however he felt he could not ignore the second provocation in South Ossetia. Georgia went into Tskhinvali in an attempt to answer this second provocation. Russia called this a "war crime," citing enormous civilian casualties, "2,000 innocents slaughtered" along with "large parts of the city leveled." But this is not accurate, and there is little evidence that a "war crime" occured. People on the ground in Tskhinvali say that the casualties, and the major part of the destruction, occurred during fighting between Georgain forces and Russian forces after Russia ventured south. Troops and equipment were amassed at the border, ready to invade South Ossetia and Georgia proper....long before Saakashvilli's attack on Tskhinvali. Also, Russian cyberattacks began against the Georgian Internet infrastructure a full two weeks before August 7. And the Russian internal progoganda machine (freedom of the press having been eliminated during the past few years) was primed and ready to sell the story to the Russian people long before the August 7 event.


 * I believe this all was planned to eliminate Saakashvilli, one way or another. And it was planned in order to prevent Georgia, and Ukraine, from joining NATO. And it was planned to eliminate competition from Western-controlled oil and gas lines that take energy supplies from the Caspian Sea to Europe--without this competition, Russia's influence in Europe will grow, and Russia has already demonstrated her willingness to use energy as a geopolitical weapon. Apostle12 (talk) 18:48, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fyi, about 40 mln Russians have access to the Internet where they can find all kinds of information (even if we forget about the likes of Echo of Moscow, The New Times, Kommersant etc). I could write something about other points you've made but I'd like to remind you that Wikipedia is not a forum. Alæxis¿question? 19:43, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

there is no clear orders from "the top" in Russia too. anyone can say, write, or broadcast(in internet or satellite television) anything. but some afraid, some collaborate with middle-level authority (which is not so liberal as ours leaders) some just want to show that they are loyal, some are jingoists, but many people reasonably criticize authorities, i can't give a precentage, i am not demographer

"Georgia went into Tskhinvali in an attempt to answer this second provocation." preemptive strike? that was extraordinarily silly operation, they were bombing small city with "Grad" for 10-14 hours, going in and out of it, before russian forces came (6 hours delay before order, ~6 hours on march) first they should have destroy Roki tunnel

"Troops and equipment were amassed at the border, ready to invade South Ossetia and Georgia proper....long before Saakashvilli's attack on Tskhinvali." it is army, on the BBC map you can see where military base is - they are always there, soldier awake in 5min - he is ready with a weapon outside a barracks, 20-40min to set up equipment... don't think they have plans to invade, after first news there was confusing silence - our president haven't know what to say, they were there "in case" i think Putin expected something like that would happen in september

about evidences - should be investigation and prejudicial evidences "here, in 3:00am 3 people killed 1 man, whos name was .." write it all down, verify, and only then talk about something was or wasn't

about cyberattacks, provocations and propaganda - indirectly it confirm your version, but we never will know for sure

energy is not a weapon, it is commodity, you can't call oligopolyst an aggressor, it is "brutish face of capitalism", market

again, i ask you to use quotes I've translated in some article, i don't feel confident enough in language to start topic Information war around 2008 South Ossetia War, can you help me in it? Carn (talk) 23:03, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

auto-archiving
This talk page is getting very long, so I added miszabot autoarchiving. --Xeeron (talk) 14:39, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

"Formerly serving as peacekeepers"
Why do we stat in the losses section that 1,7 thousand servicemen of the Russian peacekeeping force were "formerly serving" as PK? Does the fact of the attack, of artillery shelling of their base during the first day of the Georgian Tskhinvali offence, deprives them of their PK mandate? They did not attack, only defence on August 7-8th. They are supposed to fight back if being attacked, aren't they? The wording now fits more to the Georgian soldiers of the PK force, which actually taken part in the attack on the city and their Russian counterparts' positions. If anybody knows any reasons behind the current wording, please post it here, for otherwise I am going to rephrase it. FeelSunny (talk) 12:05, 27 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I took away 'former' as Russian PK force did not violate it's mandeta in the region an so did not lose it. It was suffering heavy losses when it started to fight back. If you have sources stating otherwise, please provide.FeelSunny (talk) 20:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Whether the Russian or Georgian troops were still peacekeepers re-opens the question of "whom did what when" that has been discussed at length in the main article and should not be discussed again here. Easy solution: Do away with the whole sentence. --Xeeron (talk) 22:53, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually the article has only two mentions about the Russian peackeeper force. This means for a day they were locked in their base by overwhelming Georgian onslaught army, suffering losses. I think, it is clear the Russian peacekeeping force did not violate the mandate. I also think there were reliable sources about aimed artillery/ tank fire on their barracks, and that we should add this.FeelSunny (talk) 05:14, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) The Georgian Army entered South Ossetia, during the early hours of August 8 2008, after a prolonged artillery (BM-21 or RM-70) onslaught on the city of Tskhinvali.[19] At 12:15 a.m., General Marat Kulakhmetov, commander of Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, reported to OSCE monitors, that his unit had come under fire and that they had casualties.[20]
 * 2) At 5 a.m., on August 9, a Russian unit broke through to the camp of the besieged peacekeepers and started evacuating the wounded.[44][45]
 * What I am saying is: Both the Georgian and the Russian troops started out as peacekeepers and both ended as normal troops. So both describing the commander as "of the peacekeeping forces" and describing him as "of the former peacekeeping forces" is wrong for some point in time and describing one commander as "of the peacekeeping forces" and the other as "of the former peacekeeping forces" is biased. Therefore it would be much cleaner to drop both sentences. --Xeeron (talk) 12:31, 12 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I support calling them peacekeepers even after the beginning of the Georgian attack. No reliable source I'm aware of says that the peacekeepers lost their mandate as the Georgians began their attack, so calling them "former-peacekeepers" is wrong. Calling them peacekeepers is both right and useful, as it clearly identifies the unit in question. Offliner (talk) 00:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * So when did the Georgian troops lose their peacekeeper status? When did the Russian ones? No doubt both were peacekeepers before the war started, and no doubt both were no longer peacekeepers after Georgia had attacked Tskhinvali and Russia invaded Georgia. We could name all commanders for their position with the peacekeepers before the war, but that obfuscated the fact that they stopped being peacekeepers pretty soon afterwards. --Xeeron (talk) 15:46, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Which source says they stopped being peacekeepers after the attack? Many sources used in the article use that term even after start of the war. Offliner (talk) 12:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * By far most of the sources I remember reading did not mention peacekeepers, calling the Russians soldiers, troops, or something alike, except when relating to the situation before the war. Here is a more direct mention, with peacekeepers being set in quotation marks, thus signaling that the times does not agree with the name. --Xeeron (talk) 16:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The usage of quotation marks in the link you gave doesn't mean that Times won't agree with the term. Most likely it is just meant to say that "Russians use this term, we don't know if it's the right one." Anyway, in the two sentences mentioned by FeelSunny, the term peacekeeper is exactly what is used in the sources. For the first sentence: - "...the night Saakashvili’s troops mounted an onslaught on Tskhinvali in which scores of civilians and Russian peacekeepers died." For the second one, "peacekeepers" is used in the source (Russia Today) as well. And if they were peacekeepers before the attack, they most certainly still were after it. Ever heard of Western NATO/UN peacekeepers losing their mandate as soon as they come under fire from the "bad guys" and start fighting back? I don't see any problem here. Offliner (talk) 02:23, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * "And if they were peacekeepers before the attack, they most certainly still were after it." It might become clearer, if I start to label the Georgian soldats as peacekeepers as well. Certainly your term "bad guys" contains everything that is problematic here. Labeling one side as bad and the other as good is where the problems come from. --Xeeron (talk) 15:21, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

No, Xeeron, I disagree. Please correct me, if I am wrong, but the Georgian unit of PK force violated the UN and CIS mandate as it participated in the attack on Tskhinvali, including the attack on Russian peacekeeping force base. This was an agression. Thus one can not call this Georgian unit PK after the conflict.FeelSunny (talk) 15:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See? Feelsunny immediately gets what I am hinting at: Both sides started out as peacekeepers, but you would not call them peacekeepers after the war anymore, because neither what the Georgians did to South Ossetia, nor what the Russians did to Georgia is in line with what peacekeepers do (and definitely not in line with their mandate either). --Xeeron (talk) 15:38, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Er... To make it clear: what I understand. Dear Xeeron, again I ask you to discuss my arguments, rather then just not mention them in your answers.

P.S. You will also like that Mamuka Kurashvili, commander of the former Georgian PK force, wounded in Tskhinvali, later told Georgian Rustavi 2 "taking all responsibility" that Russian peacekeeper positions were "shelled by Russians themselves".FeelSunny (talk) 17:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) We are not talking about "what Russians did to Georgia" here. We are talking about one unit, one very specific battalion of one very specific regiment of Russian army.
 * 2) This very specific battalion, as long as one very specific Georgian batallion was given UN and CIS mandate to perform peacekeeping functions which included preventing an attack by any side on local population.
 * 3) Russian battalion was protecting the city. Georgian battalion was attacking the city, together with other units of the Georgian offencive force.
 * 4) Russians had the mandate and not violated it. They were peacekeepers during August war.
 * 5) Georgians had the mandate and violated it by taking part in the attack. They were not peacekeepers from the beginning of the war.


 * No need to waste talk page space discussing your arguements as long as I fully agree with them. I did not disagree with the 15:36, 15 December 2008 (UTC) entry in the least, so no need to discuss. I only made a point about your reaction to Offliner. Oh and I disagree with #4. Until you point out to me the part of their mandate that endorsed bombing&invading another country (including in places that where miles from South Ossetia). Not likely to happen. --Xeeron (talk) 21:40, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Until you point me out a reliable source clearly stating Nixon was not an alien invader from Mars :), I will call him that on a WP page abt him. We have a presumption of innocence. Thus, I am not going to dig deep into google again and again to prove accusations this very unit was "invading" and "bombing" are wrong. So please go on and prove that your position abt #4 is shared by any reliable sources. Anyway, to get back to the point:

Why Russian PK force still remained a PK Force: They had not violated their mandate (no single source speaks of it. Even in the first weeks after the war, when most Western media covered the conflict with a strong pro-Georgian bias). Instead most sources speak of maintaining cease-fire orders even after the Georgian onslaught started.

Why Georgian PK force lost their PK status during the first day of the war: They have played active role in shelling Tskhinval, and shoot their fellow Russian PK servicemen. This is what makes them a "Former peacekeepers". FeelSunny (talk) 12:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Number of People Killed
An August 14 Human Rights Watch reportconcluded that only forty-four people had died in the city “since the start of the fighting,” which includes several days before the Russian incursion into Georgia. While civilian deaths, and injuries, and damage to non-military targets deserve condemnation no matter their source, there is little doubt that the mostly uncritical reporting of Russia’s provocative claims led to a great deal of confusion as to the actual scale of the fighting, and unjustly accused Georgian forces of atrocities they did not commit. http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/getting_russia_v_georgia_right.php

Original source material from Human Rights Watch: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm We need more of this. Apostle12 (talk) 07:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
 * They sayin' Russian's maybe was attacking town with Grad, lol. Victim quantity underestimated. Who's payin' them? Carn (talk) 10:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Rather a crude, backhanded implication, don't you think? Human Rights Watch has an impeccable reputation for unbiased reporting.  So far NOT A SINGLE SOURCE has backed the original Russian claim of "Saakashvili's genocide and war crimes" with respect to the Georgian attack on Tskhinvali. Since the town fell under Russian control, and especially since the last Human Rights Watch report on August 14, no Western reporters have been allowed on the ground in Tskhinvali. Apostle12 (talk) 17:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You haven't ansvered. One who pays the piper calls the tune. In Russia we have culture of critical perception of media which is not comparable with Western trustful tradition.
 * Kokoity have lied, it's a true. Ours authorized persons have trusted him. Still victims have not been counted, but we see number is not 1500-2000 but 150-200+
 * You think genocide starts with a number 44, 133, 1500 killed people - i think it is caused by history, then one ethnic group wants to eliminate another.
 * The confrontation between Tbilisi and Tskhinvali roots into the past. The source of conflict was created in 192x years once the South Ossetia was forcefully added to Georgia.


 * In April 1922, the Council of Peoples’ Commissars [transl. – the communist authority] on Caucasus National-State Demarcation has created the South Ossetia autonomous region by its decree [transl. – this makes the administration easier]. However, as the historians mention, the autonomy was mainly formal. The Georgian government conducted the assimilating policy – Ossetians had to alter their nationality in the documents and geographic names were changed to Georgian.


 * In 1939, the Ossetian Latin alphabet-based written language was translated into Georgian alphabet; Georgian teaching language was introduced in the schools. At the same time, the Nothern Ossetian written language was turned to Cyrillic characters. In result, the solid Ossetian nation was artificially divided into two parts: the Northern and Southern Ossetians.


 * In the end of 1980-x, the nationalist movement, which proclaimed the elimination of the autonomies inside the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic (GSSR) [transl. – The Georgia – Abkhazia conflict is exactly similar], started to rise in Georgia. In order to defend the rights of South Ossetia and creating the constitutional rights of the autonomy, on 10th Nov 1989 Southossetian deputy have adopted the decision, which transformed the autonomous oblast (a province) into autonomous republic. [transl. – USSR was liquidated in August 1991] However, the presidium of Georgia SSR’s Supreme council has abandoned it considering unconstitutional.


 * 13 days later, on 23rd of Nov 1989, participants of the Georgian nationalistic movement, lead by Zviad Gamsakhurdia, have campaigned on the capital of South Ossetia. A column of many thousands of marchers (accounting from 30 to 60 thousands) from Tbilisi on more than 400 busses and cars has approached the Thinvali. Officially, the action was presented as a peaceful meeting; however, there were several hundred of automatic gun-armored militants among the marchers. The whole male population stood up to defense of their city. Failed to enter the city, the marchers surrounded it. The blockage has lasted for four months, 400 people wounded, 6 killed during it.


 * In 1990, the Georgia has officially repudiated to accept the fundamental legal regulations regarding its state in USSR (the norms adopted after 1921). The South Ossetia, in turn, exploited the situation and declared its sovereignty, arguing that this territory did not belong to Georgia before 1921.


 * Such a situation did not please the Georgia, where the nationalistic parties and movements have came to power in the same year. The chairman of Georgia’s Helsinki Watch Group, head of “Round Table – Free Georgia”, Zviad Gamsakhurdia, has been elected the head of Georgian SSR’s Supreme Council (the Parliament).


 * The situation has considerably deteriorated after the 9 Nov 1990 elections into Peoples’ deputy Council of South Ossetia (The Pairlament), which were organized by a decision made in Thinvali rather than in Tbilisi. On next day, 10th of Dec, the Georgia undertakes a response step: The Supreme Council of the (Georgia) republic abolishes the South Ossetian autonomic oblast by annexing it into Georgia on the general grounds.


 * On 11th Dec 1990, some clashes took place in the central streets of Thinvali, where three people have died and two have wounded. This has served a pretext to impose a state of emergency and curfew in the city and Java region.


 * On night 5th and 6th Jan 1991, the government of Georgia brought militia and national guardian units into Thinvali. The started disturbances resulted in extrusion of Georgian troops from the SouthOssetian’s capital. The confrontation has escalated up to a new level.


 * On Jan 29th 1991, the South Ossetia chairman Torez Kulumbekov was invited into Tbilisi to negotiate with Georgian administration. On arrival into the Georgia’s capital, right from the government house he has transmitted into a jail. On 1st Feb 1991, the union on independent power engineers disrupted the power supply of South Ossetia.


 * On 23rd March, the all levels of South Ossetia deputy met and turned the course back to the autonomous state. A Committee to normalize the situation in South Ossetia was formed.


 * On 4 May 1991, the meeting of deputies accepted the decision to abolish South-Ossetian Soviet Republic, which was formed after sovereignty declaration, and return to the autonomous oblast state.


 * On 26th May 1991, the Georgia conducted the president elections and Zviad Gamsakhurdia was elected president.


 * Meantime, the bloodshed has increased in the warzone. Up to 8th June 1991, the number of burned Ossetian villages has reached 70. The count of conflict victims from 6.01.91 to 1.09.91 has reached 209 people, 460 civilians were wounded and 150 more were lost. And, huge victims were among Georgian citizens who were living in the conflict zone villages and became a revenge target from the southossetian population. Many Georgian had to leave their houses and run away to Georgia territory.


 * On 1st Sept 1991, the session of South Ossetian People’s Deputy Council has abolished its 4th May 1991 decision as legally incompetent and not leading to stabilization. Additionally, it abolished the Council of Deputies of All Levels as unconstitutional and restored the Republic status, which has got a new name – the South Ossetia Republic (SOR).


 * On 19th Sept 1992, the South Ossetia has conducted the independence referendum. More than 98% of voters gave their voices for independence.


 * In Feb 1992, the Georgian artillery and panzer machines surrounding Tskhinvali started the intensive fire on civilian areas of the capital. The shooting lasted till 13th June of 1992. In result, the hundreds of civilians have dead.


 * On 8th March 1992, Eduard Shevardnadze comes back to Georgia as a chairman of State Council. The blockage and night gunfire of civilian settlements becomes tougher, at that.


 * On 20th May 1992, near ossetian settlement Zar, Georgian militants have point-blank fired a column of women, old men and children, who were marching on Tskhinvali -Jau circumurban road into North Ossetia. On the place, 36 people aged 11 to 76 were killed.


 * On 29th may 1992, the Supreme council of South Ossetia republic has accepted the state independence Act.


 * On 24th June 1992, in Sochi, a 4-side Russo-Georgio-Ossetian (North and South Ossetia) Agreement about settlement principles has been signed.


 * On 14th June 1992, the joint Russo-Georgio-Ossetian peacekeeper forces entered the South Ossetia, whereupon the period of open military confrontation has finished.


 * On 31st August 1992, a Memorandum on South Ossetia borders has been accepted.


 * On 2nd Nov 1992, a consequent session of Supreme Council has accepted the South Ossetia republic constitution. On 5th may of 1995, the state anthem has been accepted.


 * On 10th Nov 1996, the South Ossetia has conducted the first nation-wide elections of president. A rector of SO State University, a doctor of history, professor, Ludwig Chibirov becomes a president.


 * On 12th May 1999, the respublic has conducted the first parliament elections; a chairmen of Communist Party of South Ossetia becomes the speaker, Stanislav Kochiev.


 * On Apr 8th 2000, a new constitution of South Ossetia is accepted on referendum. South Ossetia becomes a presidential republic.


 * The second president elections run on 10th Nov 2001. Nation-wide election elects a trade representative minister of the SOR in Russia Eduard Kokoity.


 * On May 2004, the republican political party “Unity” gains majority during the parliament elections.


 * On 16th Nov 2006, presidential elections took place and a referendum about independence of RSO. The president Eduard Kokoity was the majority of votes. Also, the majority of voters have confirmed the course on independence, firstly determined by the peoples’ referendum in 1992.


 * Currently, the political state of the South Ossetia is undefined. The self-declared republic was not accepted by international community, but the official Tbilisi considers South Ossetia a Tskhinvali region of Georgia, yet actually does not control it. Carn (talk) 06:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

It's at least 44 (city hospital-morgue only), but includes Ossetian civilians and (para)military, with the combatants being actually majority of casualties. --Captain Obvious and his crime-fighting dog (talk) 14:51, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

- Now tell me, how many were and still are paid by Kremlin ?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.196.43.176 (talk) 07:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

--

A single artillery strike of Israel against a palistinensian City killed more than 570 people. That was only one and a half year ago. .... no single pig argued about that.