Talk:Battle of Vienna, Virginia

For the record-books
Would it be correct to say that this was the first battle involving the Confederate States Army, as such? Valetude (talk) 20:25, 10 December 2015 (UTC)


 * I can't cite a definitive source but as near as I can tell from E. B. Long's book, The Civil War Day by Day, The Battle of Big Bethel, a week earlier on June 10, 1861, seems to have been the first battle (regardless of size) unambiguously to have involved a Confederate States Army force as such (with Virginia and North Carolina troops involved).


 * The Provisional Army of the Confederate States was authorized by an Act of the Confederate Congress on February 28, 1861, but according to Eicher, Civil War High Commands, was not organized until April 27, 1861. The Regular Army of the Confederate States was never raised, only a few officers were appointed. It was to be the peace time army, just as the Regular Army of the United States is. Jefferson Davis declared on March 1, 1861 that the Confederate States were taking control of the military situation at Charleston, South Carolina and appointed P.G.T. Beauregard as a brigadier general in the PACS to take charge. The exact status of the force that shelled Fort Sumter, however, is not clear in my opinion. It seems to me that they were state troops of some sort even though Beauregard was in charge because the PACS had not been "officially organized" according to Eicher. Maybe there is some definitive declaration on the troops status somewhere but I don't know of one nor did I find one in brief research to make this comment.


 * The actions in Virginia before this battle involved Virginia state troops of the Provisional Army of Virginia, despite the fact they are generally referred to as "Confederates" because they were in "alliance" with the Confederacy. The force was formed before Virginia seceded and the secession was made official. They were not officially transferred to the Confederate States Army until June 8, 1861, again citing Eicher. So technically, the Battle of Fairfax Court House (June 1861), June 1, 1861, the Battle of Philippi (West Virginia), June 3, 1861, and any other actions in Virginia before that date would have been conducted by the Provisional Army of Virginia.


 * Similarly any small military action in Missouri up to this time would have been conducted by the pro-Confederate Missouri State Guard. That would make this the second battle in which a Confederate States Army force was engaged. There were a few other small skirmishes and property seizures in June, especially on June 17, the date of this battle. The Confederate force at the only other engagement of any significance on June 17, as near as I can tell, at Boonville, Missouri, was a Missouri State Guard force. This force was defeated as Union forces continued to enlarge their foothold in Missouri.


 * Of course, I would defer to anyone who can cite a more definitive, authoritative, reliable, verifiable source for the first battle in which Confederate States Army sources as such were engaged. Donner60 (talk) 06:43, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

First troop transport by rail?
I realise that the American Civil War saw the first movements of troops to a battlefront by rail.

But are you sure that no troops were ever moved anywhere by rail before 1861? It sounds unlikely. If they were, then I think we should re-classify Vienna as the first ‘tactical use’ of railroads for troop transport. Valetude (talk) 00:44, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The only other war in which a railway of any sort could have been used before the American Civil War was the Crimean War. The article on the Crimean War states that Russian railway lines did not extend south of Moscow so the Russians could not have used railways to get troops or supplies anywhere near the war zone. From the article on the Grand Crimean Central Railway: "The Grand Crimean Central Railway was a military railway built in 1855 during the Crimean War by Great Britain. Its purpose was to supply ammunition and provisions to Allied soldiers engaged in the siege of Sevastopol who were stationed on a plateau between Balaklava and Sevastopol. It also carried the world's first hospital train.... It began to function on the 23rd [February 1855] when horse-drawn supplies were taken from Balaclava to Kadikoi....Locomotives were used, the first one running by November 8, but this was too late to affect the outcome of the siege. The locomotives were not effective because they could not manage even the easy gradient from Balaclava to Kadikoi with more than a light load." Besides this, Poland, and any other source I may have seen on this, state that the railway (14 miles in all when a branch was completed) was only used for supplies; the troops were already at the siege. So no troops could have been moved by the Russians and the line that was built by the British was used to supply their troops already in place. Also, the weight restrictions on the line due to the use of horses and weak locomotives would have restricted and likely prevented the use of the rail line for carrying troops. Donner60 (talk) 07:30, 3 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I need to amend my comments and delete the conclusion not because there were earlier movements of troops before 1861, as far as I know, but because there were some troop movements in the American Civil War before June 17, 1861. None resulted in a battle along or adjacent to the railway. Nonetheless, it is well-known that Union troops were brought to Washington by rail in the days immediately after the surrender of Fort Sumter on April 15, 1861. The notable Baltimore riot occurred because the troops had to march through part of the city to go from one rail line that ended to the line that connected to Washington, DC. Also in April 1861, Virginia militia moved by rail from various locations to the south and east to Strasburg, Virginia, where the line ended, before moving on to capture the arsenal at Harper's Ferry. The arsenal commander tried unsuccessfully to destroy the arsenal and the garrison fled in advance of the arrival of what they understood to be a large and quickly approaching force. So to be completely accurate, it seems that one must say that the June 17 movement was the first to bring troops immediately into combat. Of course, the large Confederate movement to the Battle of First Bull Run occurred in the following month. Donner60 (talk) 08:23, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

---This is absurd. Trains were used during the Napoleonic wars to move massive amounts of supplies and likely more than a mere 250 something troops. Maybe the first time in America, but surely not the world. I'm removing that factoid. I find it comical that this "battle" has it's own full Wiki page. Was this some kind of Town of Vienna historical society that pushed for this "relevant" piece of history?108.56.193.220 (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * First I've heard of Napoleonic rail transport. No wiki-page that I can find. Could you possibly furnish us with any details? Valetude (talk) 22:30, 28 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Of course, what is actually absurd, is to claim that trains were used in the Napoleonic wars. That may be why no answer was ever given to the question. As the article History of rail transport in France states: "In 1823, a royal decree authorized the first railway company (Saint-Étienne to Andrézieux Railway) and the line was first operated in 1827, for goods, and for passengers in 1835." The History of rail transport in Germany states: "Modern rail history officially began with the opening of the steam-powered Bavarian Ludwig Railway between Nuremberg and Fürth on 7 December 1835. This had been preceded by the opening of the horse-drawn Prince William Railway on 20 September 1831." And as to the earliest railway in Europe, the History of rail transport in Great Britain states: "That design persuaded the backers of the proposed Stockton and Darlington Railway to appoint Stephenson as Engineer for the line in 1821. While traffic was originally intended to be horse-drawn, Stephenson carried out a fresh survey of the route to allow steam haulage. The Act was subsequently amended to allow the usage of steam locomotives and also to allow passengers to be carried on the railway. The 25-mile (40 km) long route opened on 27 September 1825 and, with the aid of Stephenson's Locomotion No 1, was the first locomotive-hauled public railway in the world." I am sure that User:Valetude knows this but so this comment has the appropriate conclusion, I might add that, the Napoleonic Wars ended in 1815. Donner60 (talk) 07:07, 3 May 2018 (UTC)