Talk:Battle of Wyoming

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"Massacre"
I have checked some of my references and I haven't found a mention of any widespread killing of non-combatants. BradMajors 05:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have removed the claim about the killing of non-combatants which could not be substantiated and I have replaced it with a couple of references saying there wasn't a killing of non-combatants. BradMajors 02:32, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Neutral POV
The title of the article should be changed to a neutral POV by renaming this article to "Battle of Wyoming". BradMajors 07:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Article has been renamed. BradMajors (talk) 05:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Likewise the Indians probably saw themselves as Patriots as well.78.18.194.10 (talk) 10:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)

Query re: number of casualties
I'm probably just being dense, but the opening paragraph mentions 300 Patriot casualties followed by 30-40 prisoners killed, while later in the article an estimate of 160 casualties is mentioned. Do we have a citation for the 300 casualties figure, or have I misunderstood the figures quoted? Jackollie (talk) 02:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I have added a citation for the figure of around 340 killed. I don't believe the other numbers come from a reliable source. BradMajors (talk) 05:12, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for checking that - I appreciate it. Jackollie (talk) 05:14, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Major John Butler reported 227 scalps taken, however, not all who died were scalped, especially those who died trying to escape by swimming across the Susquehanna. Major Butler also reported that Colonel Nathan Denison told him that 302 had been killed. These are the numbers used by historians Williams (2005), Mintz (1999), Graymont (1968), and Schenawolf (2021). Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 18:46, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

dates??
I may be dense, too, but the first paragraph mentions a date of July 3 for the Battle/subsequent events, and then the dates in the first paragraph of the Encounter section are June 1 and June 3. I *thought* the July date was correct, no? dkennert (talk) 16:30 EST 30 Nov 2007


 * July is the correct date and article has been fixed. Graymont in her book says "June 3" which is wrong. Note that these events happened over a few days. BradMajors 23:00, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Identity of parties
The list of "Wyoming militia companies" does not indicate which companies are affiliated with which sides. Similarly, the "Encounter" section is somewhat confusing as to what sides are taking particular actions. As a "Butler" appears on each side, reference to merely "Butler" is unclear.--Rpclod (talk) 12:15, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

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False Accusations
|Page 242: Sunday 15th. Basically the Seneca said they weren't involved in Wyoming and Brant knew a lot of families in Cherre Valle. In the reference, the diary states that 'our regiment' butchered 30 non-combatants; not Seneca Indians -- a clear distinction. I think there's something here in the Haudenosaunee culture forbids violence against non-combatants as they were close to destruction a couple of time from lack of population. In the Beaver Wars their homes were continually destroyed by the French, but allowed a 13 y/o girl to stir patriotism (Madeleine de Verchères). The Huron:

"Between 1631-1663, the Iroquois attacked the Hurons at least 73 times. More than 500 Huron people are recorded as having been killed during these raids, with an astonishing 2,000--one-fifth of their post epidemic population--captured and deported to Iroquoia. These numbers are likely low-end estimates…. [T]he number of captives taken by the Iroquois during the Beaver Wars was on average two to three times greater than the number of enemies they killed. Both scenarios illustrate that the acquisition of enemy captives to replace Iroquois population losses was the primary factor in the Beaver Wars, which were not a series of conflicts designed to impose Iroquois control over the fur trade, but rather an Iroquois fight for survival, one vast, prolonged mourning war." (74)" --- WikiLinks

What do you guys think? 208.96.66.213 (talk) 19:04, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Contradictory numbers of British (Loyalist and Native) combatants
The info box claims 110 Butler's Rangers and 464 Iroquois, but the "Aftermath" section claims 1000. One of the few linked sources https://web.archive.org/web/20030428072721/http://www.colcohist-gensoc.org/Essays/wyomingmassacre.htm actually claims even more, about 400 British and nearly 700 Natives. Meters (talk) 20:47, 9 December 2020 (UTC)


 * "110 Rangers and 464 Iroquois" is originally from "Memorandum of Indian Operations from 1778 to 1780, Made at Niagara in 1780," written by Richard Cartwright, Major Butler's civilian secretary. Cartwright's numbers are accepted as reasonably accurate by modern historians including Graymont, Tharp, Francavilla, and Watt. 19th century American historical writers tended to inflate the number to 1100 or more. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 20:28, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Disputed
The statements "360 American men, women, and children died" and 360 non-combatants massacred; many others died of starvation or exposure" are disputed.

According to numerous reliable secondary sources, few if any non-combatants were killed. The Battle of Wyoming is referred to as the Wyoming Massacre because of the large number of American soldiers who were scalped and killed as they fled the battlefield. A sensationalist and widely distributed newspaper report published a few weeks later falsely claimed that women and children were also slaughtered in the days following. This unfounded accusation reappeared in early published histories of the United States.

The following sources document how Patriot propaganda turned a lopsided defeat into a massacre:

Schenawolf, Harry. "Battle of Wyoming – American Defeat or Massacre?" Revolutionary War Journal, July 21, 2021.

Tharp, William R. “Savage and Bloody Footsteps Through the Valley: The Wyoming Massacre in the American Imagination." M.A. thesis, Virginia Commonwealth University, 2021.

Lewis, Michael J. "The Wyoming Massacre: On Stone and in Memory." Nineteenth Century: The Magazine of the Victorian Society in America, Vol. 40, No. 1 (Spring 2020) pp. 34-41.

Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 20:00, 14 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The Introduction and Infobox have been revised. The discredited claim that non-combatants were massacred has been once again been removed. None of the secondary sources cited later in the article support this claim, and information elsewhere in the article makes it clear that non-combatants were spared.
 * Still some problems with accuracy that need to be dealt with so the "factual accuracy is disputed" warning remains. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 17:56, 3 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Background has been revised. There was some confusion about the timeline. John Butler was given permission to raise a "corps of rangers" a month before Burgoyne's surrender in October 1777, and a month after the Battle of Oriskany in August 1777. Active Seneca and Cayuga participation in the war began with the Battle of Oriskany. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Corrected and revised the paragraph about Fort Pittston. The source material did not say that the fort was occupied by the British until retaken by the Americans in 1780. The fort was surrendered, abandoned, partially destroyed then reoccupied in 1780. Capt Blanchard commanded a militia company not a company of continental soldiers. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 20:04, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The Battle section has been revised using information from recognized and reliable secondary sources such as Graymont (1972), Williams (2005), Cruickshank (1893) Schenawolf (2021), Harvey (1909) and Tharp (2021). Removed disputed warning. Still some work needs to be done. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 19:29, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Moved some paragraphs from Battle to Aftermath. Arranged paragraphs in Aftermath into roughly chronological order, and added information with citations about the Hartley Expedition. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 18:25, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Aftermath - George Dorrance
The story of George Dorrance's death is one of many myths that have evolved around the Battle of Wyoming. While stories such as "Queen Esther and the Bloody Rock" and "The Fratricide" were included in the earlier accounts written by William Stone, Charles Miner, and George Peck, this story first appeared in Steuben Jenkins jingoistic speech at the 1878 commemoration of the battle. Jenkins's speech contained a number of falsehoods, insisting, for example, that Joseph Brant was present. As such he cannot be considered a reliable source. The phrase "According to one source" has been added at the beginning of the paragraph. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 21:03, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Legacy
The final sentence of this paragraph is problematic:

"A possible explanation for the difference between the number of names on the monument (178) and the reported number of scalps taken in the battle (227) is that allegedly numerous civilians (perhaps as many as 200)—instead of surrendering to Colonel Butler—elected to flee and died of exposure in a swamp known as the 'Shades of Death' after the battle.'"

The discrepancy between the number of scalps reported taken and the number of names recorded on the monument has nothing to do with those who fled the Wyoming Valley in the aftermath the battle. The names were inscribed when the monument was constructed more than 50 years later, and were collected, not from written records, but from oral histories. As a result, the names of many of the dead are missing.

While many historical writers have suggested that numerous Wyoming Valley refugees died while crossing the Poconos, the "survivor" narratives printed in Hayden (1895) and Peck (1858) do not support this. Undoubtedly some deaths did occur among the refugees but not 200 as Jenkins (1878) speculated. It was summer not winter, the path from the Wyoming Valley to Stroudsburg (Fort Penn) was familiar to many, and the journey only took a few days.

The "Shades of Death," a densely forested area east of the Wyoming Valley, appears on William Scull's 1770 Map of Pennsylvania, so could not have been named as a result of the battle and its aftermath. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 18:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Order of Battle
As originally written, this section was confusing and lacked sufficient citations. Have renamed the section "American order of battle" and am in the process of fact-checking, clarifying and adding citations. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 15:51, 18 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Finished revising order of battle. Added information about Gershom Prince, an African American killed in the battle. Deleted Bibliography since the inline citations makes it redundant. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 13:22, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Battle or Massacre?
Reverted recent edit that deleted the phrase "also known as the Wyoming Massacre" from the lead. Battle of Wyoming is the historically accurate name for the events of July 3, 1778. Wyoming Massacre may not be as historically accurate (since massacre implies the killing of non-combantants), but is still widely used. Griffin&#39;s Sword (talk) 13:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)