Talk:Battle of the Neva

Some problems
The Battle of the Neva cannot have secured the Russo-Swedish borders, as none existed yet. There was no common border, as Finland and Western Karelia were not yet conquered by Sweden. The first border treaty between Sweden and Novgorod was confirmed in 1323. Thus it is a bit uncertain if Finns participated; possibly the 14th century Russian chronicler just listed all hostile tribes in the north-west among the enemies.

I do not know happened to Birger´s eye, but at least his grave was opened and his skull examined during the 1920´s. There was no evidence of a burst eye. Of course, you might burst an eye without the skull being harmed, but this is not likely if you´re slashed on the face with a sword...and, anyway, details like that in medieval chronicles are rarely to be trusted. In fact, it is not completely certain that Birger even commanded the Swedish attack. The Swedish sources do not mention the battle (for reasons not difficult to understand), and the I think the Russian chronicle mentions only an enemy commander with a very un-Swedish name "Spiridon". He was killed. Where the knowledge of Birger´s burst eye actually comes from? Kraak 19:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Spiridon is actually a Greek name, and as such also a Russian name through religion. It has the meaning "round basket" .--Drieakko 10:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Two versions of the attack from the First Novgorod Chronicle both say that Spiridon was killed, see here. This wounding the enemy leader in the face is nowhere in the text. Feels like it was made up in later sources. --Drieakko 14:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know what source and whose translation you found on 195.148.246.230. Furthermore, the Russian text clearly identifies Birger and Spiridon as two different people. I suspect a scribe's mistake here, because Spiridon was actually Archbishop of Novgorod who blessed the Novgorodians before the battle. -- Ghirla -трёп-  16:04, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * http://195.148.246.230 is a service hosted by the National Archives of Finland. The translation is made a long time ago, judging from the oldish Swedish. If someone knows either a professional translation to English online or is willing to assist in translating it from the original Russian text (thanks to Ghirla for correcting it now), please join. Spiridon really appears as two persons in the 16th century version of the battle, but is mentioned only once in the 14th century version. Name is not Swedish. But let us not engage in original research here ;) --Drieakko 21:00, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

More problems
Does anyone have information what is the original name used for Swedes in the Russian chronicles describing the attack? Was it "nemets", the same word that they used for Germans?


 * Nope, the Swedes are svei, as usual. -- Ghirla -трёп-  16:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Nem (mute) was used also generally for person whose talk was not understanded by the Russian. Thus, nemets could be who whatever (vem som hälst) who did not spoked Slovonic language ie. Russian. Just to clear the picture the Germans were nemetski and the Finns were at firs staryij (The Olds), but later Chuds (Tshuudis). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.116.165 (talk) 09:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This whole Neva battle sounds strange because it goes too completely unnoticed in Sweden. Swedish expeditions of 1220 (defeat) and 1249 (victory) are verifiable in many ways, but the 1240 campaign is as if it never existed. Not a single high-ranking Swede is known to have died that year even though chronicles claim that enemy leaders were killed; there is no Swedish documentation whatsoever that is related to any kind of conflict in the east at that time, directly or indirectly; and there seems to have been no political aftermath whatsoever after the alleged crushing defeat. Also even more strange is the listing of Norwegians and Finns along with the attacking enemy. The traditional claim that the Russians' counterpart on Neva was an official Swedish army looks very suspicious. --Drieakko 09:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)


 * There are also no Tatar records of the Battle of Kulikovo. I advise you to do some "research" on the subject after you finish this one. -- Ghirla -трёп-  16:14, 14 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If we look at Sweden after the Battle of Lihula (1220) and before Second Swedish Crusade (1249), the Swedes were engaged in an almost continuous civil war. During 1225-1249 Sweden was also on the brink of war with Norway. Swedish historians have suspected that the Battle on the Neva was more of a private enterprise by an unknown group, not an official military expedition by their ledung which would be difficult to fit to the reality back in Sweden. --Drieakko 21:14, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Infobox Military Conflict
"Infobox Military Conflict" should in my opinion stay. Much of the information of the battle is lost, and the infobox tells that immediately to anyone having a glance on the article. To know that information is missing, is much information already. --Drieakko 17:35, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I have said many times that infoboxes in stubs, especially illustrated, are redundant: they make articles look like a mess and significantly uglify their presentation without contributing anything meaningful in the way of content. -- Ghirla -трёп-  16:15, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:RS
Drieakko, please stop replacing the article with unreliable translations of primary sources browsed in the google cachet. Wikipedia is not supposed to quote primary sources (especially impaired by translation) at such a length. If you need to use online sources, here is the authentic text of the 13th-century chronicle, here the texts of other Novgorodian chronicles, and here excerpts from the chronicle whose commentators identify the leader of Swedish forces with a certain earl Ulf Fasi. Please don't engage in original research. -- Ghirla -трёп-  18:51, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Translation is mine from a commonly and well known Swedish text that is hosted by the National Archives of Finland. Kindly correct it if needed. In this kind of case where all the information that there is about a major event fits within some twenty lines of text, quoting it in full is in my opinion proper. The chronicle is from the 14th, not 13th century. --Drieakko 20:49, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Battle of Neva 1240
Peharps this information, available in Finnish literature, shows some new light for the Neva Crusade Expedition in 1240.

Pope Gregorius IX nominated in 1221 English Dominican monk Thomas or Tomas as new Bishop to Turku. Or Latin Aboa which could freely be transliterated from Swedish Åbo or Åby (River House or River Village) located at the mouth of Aurajoki (Plough River). According to Kustavi Grotenfelt (Finland´s Science Academy 1919) Gregorius IX and Bishop Thomas had a secret plan to establish an independent new Papal State to this pagan land. Gregorius IX had remarked all Inkerikos (Ingermanlanders), Vatjas, Loppis and Karelians to the enemies of Roman Catholic Church. They were neither not willing to adopt the Real Believers Orthodox Cristianity offered from Novgorod. The third threat coming from just conquered Estonia were the German Knights who in 1221 and 1224 tried to cross the Narva River and enter to the Vatjaland. These attemps were repulsed by combined tribal troops collected by Vatjas and Ingermanlanders. The local hero was Ingermanlander tribal chief Pelguin (name uncertain) who won both battles against the German knights. Meanwhile just arrived Bishop Thomas (Tuomas) started to convert Finnish Häme (Jääm) tribes to Christianity with poor results. Also Novgorod had gathered so much strenght that it was able the first time send an expedition force led by Prince Jaroslavl to Finland against Häme tribes in 1227. The Russian folklore tells: "The prisoners were taken in many of numbers, all could not been taken to Novgorod, some were killed but some were released and sent back to their homes." This was a real opportunity for Bishop Thomas. He agitated Hämes to take a revenge against the Novgorodians. And so they did. Next summer in 1228 they equipped a fleet of 2.000 man and sailed as revenge expedition to Lake Laatokka. There appeared to have been hard fighting against the Karelians and Novgorodians on the shores of Laatokka and in Aunus (Olonetz). It was a cruel fighting. No prisoners were taken. All houses were burned and man killed. It seems that Hämes suffered during this revenge expedition also heavy losses. When they returned home they saw what kind of brutal converting methods Bishop Thomas had used with their women and children. Thomas imported more Roman Catholic monks to Finland and expanded his convering to the east and north of Hämeland. But then in 1237 the limit was reached. The Hämes turned against the Bishop Thomas and his monks and deported them from their country. At this time, at last, the Häme tribes and Karelian tribes allied against Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christiany but that was too late to resist the Novgorodian and Swedish infiltration into Finnish tribes lands. After been deported from Hämeland Bishop Thomas turned his attention toward Ingermanland and Vatjaland. He imported Norwegian Vikings who had turned in Christianity to Turku with their ships. Less than ten arrived in late spring 1240. Also some others arrived from England and Denmark. Bishop Thomas had to pay for them to take part to his own Crusade against the pagans in Ingermanland. This poorly equipped mixed society sailed from Kuusisto toward River Neva. They landed in the confluence of Inkere and Neva Rivers (according to Novgorod Chronicle on July 15, 1240). When hearing that Bishop Thomas had sailed from Kuusisto (Hämes sent a message to tribal chief Pelguin) he asked help from the Novgorodians. All what the Novgorod pajars (bojars) sent was a young Aleksandr Novgorodian and few rowships down Olhava River to Lake Laatokka. Here some inhabitants from town Laatokka joined the Novgorodian expedinture which entered to River Neva and joined the Ingermanlanders. It was Pelguin, not Aleksandr, who won "The Battle of Neva" according to Finnish sources. This battle ended Bishop Thomas dream of Independent Papal State in Far North. After the defeat Bishop Thomas returned to Kuusisto and the rest of his expedition forces, which were left of it, sailed back home. Meanwhile, some Swedes participating the Bishop Thomas Crusade had reported it the King of Sweden Erik XI. He nominated Birger from Folkungs family to sail to Turku and put end to Bishop Thomas expeditions and take Finland (Hämeland / Tavastland) in closer Swedish control. Birger in turn conquered Southern Hämeland and a Swedish castle was built to Hakoinen in 1250.

Now the bells were ringing to Bishop Thomas. New Pope (Gregorius IX had died in 1241) wanted to know to where Bishop Thomas has spend so much of church gold and when he heard of this 1240 crusade expenditure to Neva he started to pressure Bishop Thomas to resign. This he did in 1245 and sailed from Finland to Vuojonmaa (Gotland) as beaten man. There Thomas went to Visby Monastery and died there in 1248. Peharps it is now possible to search the full name of Bishop Thomas. And peharps this explain why any offical Swedish sources do not mention 1240 Battle of Neva. And at last, this confirms the Novgorodian style to create legends and place the honour of winning the Battle of Neva from Pelguin to young Aleksandr, without any war experience. See also Estonian folklore what happened on the Ice Of Peipsen Lake in April 1242.

In addition Finnish sources mentions three Novgorodian "Robbery Raids" to nearby Turku. One to Hämeland in 1311 followed by two later ones made in 1314 and 1318. All were repulsed with heavy losses, also for the Novgorodians. If "Robbery Raids" means in Russian old folklores "Being placed under Novgorod control" so these were it. Could Spiridon had been a Bask? And why Aleksandr was deported from Novgorod after the "Battle of Neva"?

JN


 * This is unfortunately in large parts fictious, like much of the Finnish history works of the early 20th century, --Drieakko 21:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Fictious Finnish history
Yes if you think so. But the facts are these.

- This Ingermanland Crusade was arranged by Bishop Thomas. ( more than 20 Finnish sources ) - It failed - Ingermanlander Tribal cheaf Pelguin was the winner. - Bishop Thomas was an Englishman - Birger Jarl did not participate

If Russian folklores are taken as serious sources why not Finnish? This is the only version what is available. For the plans for creating this Independent Papal State peharps Vatican Archives are open?

JN
 * Well, the Finnish "sources" are from the early 20th century. "Ingermanland crusade" having been organized by Thomas is all fiction. In old times, Finnish historians wanted to see it that way, but it is just speculation from the start. The many details in those stories are also made up by the same historians, who were not accustomed to separating their own hypotheses and historical sources from each other. --Drieakko 05:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Finnish "Fiction"
For the first time forever, I can see an attitude where one person claims the work of all Finnish older sources as "fiction". Thanks for that British? knowledge. However, I enclose here a chapter of Finnish "Pienitietosanakirja" Part IV 1959 Edition. This Small Encyclopedia had 23 different writers most of them in professor level.

Tuomas (k. 1248) Suomen piispa n. 1221 - 1245, syntyperältäään englantilainen dominikaanimunkki. Novgorodin ruhtinas Jaroslavin tehtyä hävitysretken Hämeeseen 1227 Tuomas tuki hämäläisten kostoretkeä Laatokalle ja Aunukseen 1228. Luultavasti yhteistoiminnassa Birger Jaarlin kanssa Tuomas teki retken Nevalle, mutta kärsi tappion Aleksanteri Nevskiä vastaan heinäkuussa 1240. Joutui eroamaan väärinkäytöstensä johdosta sekä jäätyään tappiolle kilpailussa Birger Jaarlin kanssa 1245. Visbyn luostarissa 1245 - 1248.

Tuomas (d.1248) Finland´s Bishop a.1221 - 1245, in origin English Dominican monk.When Novgorodian Prince Jaroslav made his destroying expedition to Häme in 1227, Tuomas supported Häme´s revenge expedition to Laatokka and Aunus in 1228. Presumably in coopearation with Birger Jarl made expedition to Neva, but suffered a defeat to Aleksateri Nevski in July 1240. Had to resign from his post as a result of his wrong doings and because he was defeated in competition with Birger Jarl. In Visby Monastery 1245 -1248.

From other source: Inkerin Sankarit. Helsinki 1938.

Peljätty d.1243 (in Russian Pelguin) an legendaric Ingermanlander tribal chief who repulsed the attacks made from Virumaa in 1221 and 1224 by German Kalpa Knights at Narva River. Beated also Bishop Tuomas expedinture at Neva in 1240. Died in fight against the Novgorodians three years later.

I guestionable Driakko´s knowledge in this subject.

Some other "fiction".

Lembitu, Lemmitty d. 1217. One of the oldest tribal chiefs in Sakkola Province. One of most heroic Estonian leaders in the fight against conquers in the battle of Estonian´s independence. Died in battle against the German knights.

Kauppo, d. 1217. Last notable Livonian tribal chief (King of Livonians). After being conquered by the German knights, become a vassal leader of Livonia. Leaded several Christian expeditions against the pagan Estonians.

Compare also the Russian and Mordvas history of town Obranjosh in the confluence of Oka and Raw. In general, this period 1201 - 1323 marked the end of independent Baltic - Finn tribal powers in the area. The written history usually do not exist, but the history was transfered in poems from one generation to next generation (compare Kalevala or Kalevi Poig) in national collective memory, only, in some cases, written down in 1860s and 1870s.

If we take Driakko´s attitude, these tribes had not a history at all before the Eastern Right Believer Orthodoxs and Western Catholic Christians begun to write history of their own in these areas.

JN


 * Well, I am Finnish. The reference from the "Pienitietosanakirja" Part IV 1959 Edition is a sloppy mixture of facts and nationalistic speculations, and the same goes to the information that Thomas and Peljätty would have got something to do with each other. References about Lembitu and Kauppo are a bit pompous but correct, as far as I know. All correlations of events during 1201-1323 to any Finnic legends recorded in the 19th century are pure speculations and unlikely. Related material is found in Prehistoric Finnish wars. --Drieakko 09:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Just little more research needed
Well, well, I repeat what I said. The written Orthodox Church text based to old Russian Orthodox Church sources, for example "Synaksarion: Marraskuu ISBN 951 - 8979 - 33 - 2 page 322 even gives the real name for Ingermanlander tribal chief, who is mentioned as Pelguin in Russian sources and under name "Peljätty" in old Finnish sources. He is actually Ingermanlander Pelkonen, who in fact was, according to old Russian Orthodox Church books an ally, not vassal, to Aleksandr Nevajokelainen. Aleksanteri Nevski. Please make little more research before claiming all trustable information - or is this also "fiction" - questionable.

Just for Drieakko´s knowledge, his descenders live still both in Ingermanland and in Finland.

I think this is the 100 per cent proven fact, or are you challenging Orthodox Church sources claiming their books "fiction".

JN
 * Please point the source that would link Bishop Thomas and legendary Pelgusij-Filipp ("Helippä Pelguin") to each other. --Drieakko 09:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Btw, he surely was not a relative of Alexander Nevski. The saints that he saw in his dreams were told to be Alexander's relatives, not Pelguin himself. --Drieakko 09:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Kustavi Grotenfelt and origin of his claim of creating Papal State
It seems Kustavi Grotenfelt was not alone with this claim of Bishop Thomas idea to create Papal State to Finland.

Encyclopedia Britannica (Edition 1911) says this also were clearly with the words: "Bishop Thomas nearly succeeded in detaching Finland from Sweden, and forming it into province subject only to the Pope."

Thus, this is a separate confirmation of such aims or Kustavi Grotenfelt used this as one of his sources.

I become really interested of this and loaned couple of books as well visited internet sources of interest. The results which followed must to be taken seriously. Connection with Ordo fratum Praedicatorum or O.P. usually known Dominican Order.

-O.P. link with Diego de Acebo

-O.P. link via Diego de Acebo with Danish King Valdemar II (Valdemar Sejr)

-O.P. link with Guzman Garces to Cencio Savelli

-O.P. link with Ugolino, Conti de Segni

-O.P. link with Gugliemo di Monferrato

-O.P. link via Cencio Savelli with Teutonic Order

-O.P. link via Valdemar II Danish help to The Brothers of the Sword

-O.P. link to Petrus Kakuwelde in Riga

-O.P. link to Cencio Savelli to appointment Bishop Thomas to Finland

The crucial year seems to be 1215 or 1216. This led eventually to Bishop Thomas Neva Expedition in 1240 when he was defeated mainly by Inkerikko (Izhora) Filip Pelkonen with the help of young Aleksandr Novgorodian in 1240 at the confluence of Neva and Inkere Rivers in Inkereland.

JN
 * I repeat myself, but these are the facts:
 * There is no source linking Bishop Thomas of Finland to the Battle of the Neva in any way.
 * There is no source linking Bishop Thomas and Pelguin.
 * There is no source saying that Pelguin had fought in the Battle of the Neva. He is not even mentioned in the 14th century version of the battle, but appears in the 16th century version as a person who warns Alexander of the battle after receiving a supernatural notification. After that, he disappears from the story.
 * I recommend that you study the more recent works of Finnish history. The publications from the early 20th century are very unreliable. The historians of that time wanted to present complete views on events. When faced with highly fragmented material, they invented missing parts by themselves using their best, but often high-flying judgment. --Drieakko 21:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Dear Drieakko


 * The new sources provided by the younger Finnish scholars do not provide any more reliable information, than does the older ones. Nothing new has been discovered. One of the old sources, a neutral observer of 1245 - 1246, named Plano Carpini, even provides actual dates how long it took to TRAVEL TO KARAKORUM and back to meet the Kaanien Kaani in 1240 - 1242 makes it clear, that Aleksandr Nevajokelainen could have not been en situ either on the Battle of Neva or Battle of Pihkovanjärvi had he travelled to Karakorum. The only place which can be linked to Aleksandr´s travels to either Sarai to meet Batu Kaani or to Karakorum to meet Kaanien Kaani Khan of Khans would have been mentioned. The only actual traveling where name Aleksandr is mentioned, and which was recorded took place in March 1246 to meet Batu Kaani at Corrensa which might be Sarai. Iaroslaff (Iiro-slaavi), a direct descendant of Volodmir Munamachus, the Grand Duke of Vladimir and Suzdal who travelled to Karakorum in 1246 and who was poisoned by there by the order of mother of new Kaanien Kaani, died there in 1246. (Pity for the Russian historians who did not know that Plano Carpini was en situ when this episode happened.) Thus, Aleksandr´s grandfather died on March 4, 1238 in the Battle of Sit River, his father travelled to Karakorum in 1246, only to be poisoned there. There is no written evidence that Aleksandr was also present there. But this describtion is available of probably young Aleksandr at Corrensa in 1246. I repeat it here to make things crystal clear for you.
 * For, at the time our aboard in the contrey, a certaine duke of Russia named Andreas, who was accused before duke Bathy for conuenying the Tartar (Mongol) horses out of the land, and selling them for others: and although it could not be proved, yet he was put to death. his younger brother and the wife of the party deceased hearing this, came and made their supplication vnto the forenamed duke, that the dukedome of Russia might not be taken from them. But he (Bathy) commanded the youth to marrie his deceased brothers wife, and the woman also to take him vnto her husband, according to the custome of Tartars (Mongols). She answered, that she rather die, than so haynously transgrease the law. Howbeit, hee deliuiered her vnto him, although they both refused as much as they could. Wherefore carying them to bed, they constrained the youth, lamenting and weeping, to lie down and commit insest with his brothers wife. If you want a direct detailed describtion how this "certaine duke named Andreas" was executed on the Mongol way adopted from old Chinese habits you have to study the meaning of "four horses to death". Overweighted old Plano Carpini continued from Corrensa his journey to Karakorum in April 1246. Thus, this execution must have been taken place before this date as he was eyewitnesser to this and the "incest" activity looked through his Roman Catholic eyes. Then, please study carefully the latest DNA research of Vladimir Monomach in the sources in Wikipedia article of Rurik Novdorod. Something new to research for you and stop saying there is not any proved written describtions of which you have not been so far to trace. That´s all. And please do not try to delete this away, as unreliable source. Otherwise all researches laught on your sencural habits as well as to another certaine one, who thinks that the sencored history is the only offical history to be written history is that in BSE in these pages of English Wikipedia.             —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.113.116.165 (talk) 08:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Casualties
Based on article edits, User:Kurt Leyman insists on removing all casualty information from the Infobox, since more information would be needed. However, there is no information available on the said battle except for the two Russian legends from the 14th and 16th centuries. If the casualties mentioned in them are not acceptable, the same can be said about any detail of the battle, finally emptying the entire article. I am not aware of any "historical research around" that would somehow have received casualty information independently from the legends. --Drieakko 13:44, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Remove biased suggestion.
Remove this biased suggestion :-


 * All references to the battle of the Neva are famously missing from the Swedish sources. This can be presumed to have resulted from Sweden's utter defeat, but the reasons may be more complicated than that.***

'All references to the battle of the Neva are famously missing from the Swedish sources'-because Swedes haven't fought in that battle and the story was constructed as propaganda ,with many facts obviously wrong ,like Norwegians,Tavastas being called as Swedish allies ,while they were Swedish enemies at that time.' You see there's totally different understanding of this situation.

Having the sentence being put this way : Swedish! In order to keep the topic scientifically correct we can not allow any partial suggestions and presumtions.
 * All references to the battle of the Neva are famously missing from the Swedish sources.This can be presumed to have resulted from Sweden's utter defeat, but the reasons may be more complicated than that.**-means to support only the Russian version and ignore the

The phrase shall be like this :
 * All references to the battle of the Neva are missing from the Swedish sources*

Such neutral reading would ensure the scientific objectivity Edelward (talk) 22:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC) Edelward (talk) 22:50, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Not quite...
This article states that the battle is only known from Russian sources... that's almost correct. The "Testament of King Magnus," though written by a Russian, is argued by most to be a written oral transmission; and the Testament mentions the battle, as well as King Magnus's own, later.

Check it out.

It's pretty much correct; I'd change it to "The existence of the battle has only been found in Russian sources."

That seems more accurate. It was arguably also known from a Swedish source (likely a knowledgeable merchant who told the writer of these events, or a collection of writings from those close to Magnus); just not anymore; however, the historical sources seem confident that the Swedes too remembered that battle, and perhaps they did; so changing "known" to "found" seems logical. Imadoctorguyz (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

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