Talk:Bau (island)

Opening heading
Bau Island has a much richer and significant history which needs more detail than indicated here, please help contribute to make this a better encyclopedia article, when I take my next trip to the National archives I will try and retrieve more information. Vinaka MB (talk) 22:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was page moved. ukexpat (talk) 20:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Bau Island → Bau (island) — As far as I can tell, the name of the Fijian island is "Bau", not "Bau Island". The external links, despite the way they're styled on the Wikipedia page, use "Bau", and the traditional title Vunivalu of Bau would seem to support the case that "Bau" is the island's name. The books Fiji and the Fijians and The Cambridge History of the Pacific Islanders both use "Bau" as the island's name exclusively.--84.92.117.93 (talk) 16:26, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Support: Looks non-controversial to me. I am going to do the move. – ukexpat (talk) 20:00, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Naming
From User_talk:Schwyz

Are you sure about that move? Is the common name for the island "Bau Island" or just "Bau"? If the latter, then Bau (island) was probably correct. – ukexpat (talk) 15:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It was the only one in Category:Islands of Fiji to use "X (island)", all others are "X" or "X Island". Schwyz (talk) 17:49, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * That's because it was a disambiguating title, there was already an article at Bau. I am still not convinced that your move was correct. – ukexpat (talk) 18:00, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * In fact the vast majority of the islands in Category:Islands of Fiji have just the bare name, without "Island", and I would argue that those that do have "Island" ("Matuku Island" snd "Matagi Island" for example) in the title should be disambiguated with "(island)" instead as the "Island" part does not appear to be used in their common names. – ukexpat (talk) 18:05, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I have moved it back per the above. – ukexpat (talk) 18:13, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The article was at Bau Island since its creation in 2006 . IP move request and your support of it, is not enough to break the common way for disambiguation in Category:Islands of Fiji for just ONE island. Please show a policy about island disambiguation in general. Schwyz (talk) 22:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


 * So what if it was at Bau Island for a while? There is no policy for "island disambiguation". The use of a capital "I" implies that "Bau Island" is a proper noun - it is not, the island's name is "Bau". The correct way to disambiguate is via a parenthetical. – ukexpat (talk) 00:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The island's name is Bau OR Bau Island, dpending on context. Schwyz (talk) 12:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

(I was made aware of this discussion by a pointer at WT:D). I agree with Ukexpat that the name Bau Island implies that this is a proper noun and could give the erroneous impression that the island's offical name is Bau Island. For geographic names where disambiguation is needed, the standard practice per Naming conventions (geographic_names) is: So in the case of this article, the preferred name would be Bau, Fiji, Bau (Fiji), or Bau (island) and I'd support moving the article to whichever of these options is the most appropriate. In my opinion, we should not be making up a nonexistent name for this island, which appears to be the case with the current Bau Island title. If other ambiguous articles on Fijian islands also have the problematic X Island name, they ought to be moved as well; perhaps a group move request nomination is warranted? --Muchness (talk) 07:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * add a comma and regional tag for settlements and administrative divisions
 * add a geographical tag in parenthesis for natural features
 * add a generic parenthetical disambiguating tag if a regional tag is insufficient
 * before moving around it would be good you familiarize with article content related to Fiji geography. It seems you miss how articles are written. To write "Bau" in an article is often misleading, since it can refer to Bau District or the village or the island. If one want to make clear what one is talking about when writing "he is from Bau", it is best to write "he is from "Bau District" or "he is from Bau Island". Furthermore you may try http://www.google.com/search?q=%22bau+island%22 to find that the designation "Bau Island" is used. Schwyz (talk) 12:07, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * See this example
 * Kadavu Island -> Kadavu Island, the alternative would be Kadavu Island. Does not look good to me.


 * "Does not look good" is not an argument, there are ways to deal with that such as "the island of Bau." The point here is that you cannot run roughshod over disambiguation conventions just because you don't like them. Unless you can point to some exception for Fiji articles, supported by consensus, the convention should apply, and in this case it's "Bau (island)". There are other Baus in Fiji so "Bau, Fiji" and "Bau (Fiji)" are misleading. – ukexpat (talk) 12:47, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course appearance is important, see WP:MOS. The articles are at "X Island" for Fiji for years, and you wihtout respecting the agreed consenus moved one island to "X (island)". WITHOUT any further consensus. You still fail to show that "Bau Island" is not an alternative name to "Bau". @roughshod - what I can do or not, I can determine myself. Do you know WP:ATTACK? Did you read ever read Fiji Times http://www.fijitimes.com/gallery.aspx?gallery=64 ? Tried to tell them not to say "Bau Island"? Schwyz (talk) 14:25, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I didn't need consensus for my original move or for my move yesterday because both were entirely consistent with Wikipedia's naming conventions at Naming conventions (geographic_names). The appearance issue can be dealt with by piping as I illustrated above. Interesting link to the Fiji Times, but if you look at the introduction they refer to it first as "Bau island" and the second time as "Bau Island", hardly evidence of consistent use. – ukexpat (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

The more I think about this, the more it worries me. Could you imagine renaming the Greenland article to Greenland Island, or Maui to Maui Island? If we don't have definite proof that Bau Island is the preferred proper name, it should definitely be Bau (island). -- Ja Ga  talk 16:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems that this case is complicated by the fact that the island is referred to both ways in reliable sources. But I agree with your wider point that as a general rule of thumb we shouldn't append "Island" as a disambiguating tag without definitive sources establishing this is part of its official name. --Muchness (talk) 19:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Mbau
There should probably be something said about the usage of Mbau in 19th century sources.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 07:32, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Re: The section entitled History
I am unhappy with the History section.

I checked some of the references and they are incorrectly interpreted in some places.

For the Tukutuku Raraba this is an oral history as recorded by the Native Lands Commission (NLC) and I believe the names are those as recorded by the oral history of the chiefly clan of the Rasau title in Lomaloma who are descended from an exiled senior line of the Roko Tui Bau.

The names conflict with those in the Tukutuku by members of the dynasty that replaced them, as recorded from accounts of those actually resident on the island at the time of the NLC inquiries.

This is not surprising since oral histories often conflict and the NLC recorded verbatim what they were told by elders of each tribe.

I believe a decision needs to be made about which ''Tukutuku needs to be accepted.

The tukutuku themselves as sources might need to be looked at. The subject of the tukutuku is also source of the information, so it might not qualify as a proper wikipedia source.

Perhaps they can be accepted as fact if there are no contradictory tukutuku in existence. But if there are contradictory versions, then independent sources need to be looked at.

Any thoughts?

Tukutukudina (talk) 04:42, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

trues up
good suggestion and maybe reference both tukutuku and share the variation and why there is a variation, I don't have access to it here but maybe you could do this undertaking Tukutukudina.

Vinaka User:Maikeli March 1st 2013

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