Talk:Bavaria/Archive 1

Famous Bavarians
I will delete Wilhelm Roentgen from the list of Famous Bavarians. He was born in what is today Nordrhein-Westphalia. He lived and worked in many places around Germany and Europe. There is no reason to consider him as a Bavarian.

132.248.28.193 15:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)pedron

I've edited the whole thing and named it "There are many famous people, who were born in Bavaria (to-day's borders) or at least lived there most of their lives". Fulcher 10:17, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

SSR Bavaria
I read that Bavaria was an SSR for a short time after ww1 also what does free state mean I think it should be mentioned.
 * Have you noticed the blue colour of the words "free state"? This usually means you can click on them for more info. :-) What's an SSR? -- H005 19:55, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * SSR=Social sowjet republic --84.152.85.142 13:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * See Bavarian Soviet Republic - should be linked into the history section somewhere between around 1919 and 1923 . Agathoclea 14:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * See also History of Bavaria. Agathoclea 14:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

"Sights" section
Hi! I was wondering what everyone else thinks of the "Sights" section. Personally, while the pictures are lovely, I don't believe the section adds much encyclopedic value to the article. The title should also be changed; "Sights" sounds somewhat like "Tourist attractions". I could be wrong and I know rather little about Bavaria, so I'm disinclined to make any ((more)) changes, especially without any input from others. I think perhaps some of these historic sites (which have their own articles) could be mentioned in the article and anyone with interest could see them by clicking on their wikilinks. Some of them, of course, can and even should be kept. Srose (talk)  18:35, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I would also like to point out that on WP:FA, the "What is a Featured Article?" section states: It has images where appropriate, with succinct captions. I don't know that an entire gallery of images is appropriate, and this article could certainly aspire to FA status.  The captions may also be inadequate. Srose  (talk)  18:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Images
The article on the History of Bavaria has vitrually no images. Perhaps someone should copy a few from the gallery in this article: Bavaria? Thanks for the help. --Grimhelm 17:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Grüß Gott
71.35.222.170 translates the Bavarian greeting, "Grüß Gott", as "Great God". This however, would have to be "Groß Gott", not "Grüß Gott". A look at the main article provides various possible translations and transliterations, but unless "Great God" is a mispelling of "Greet God", there is no way it could be interpreted thus. Dank für das Verstehen! --Grimhelm 22:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * One of the recent editors recommended to "translate meaning not words". In that case, I'd recommend we give the translation as "Hello." -- The Photon 18:30, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * "Hello" seems a bit redundant and vague, as it is already described as a greeting. "God bless you" seems appropriate, although both a literal translation and a meaning could given. "Great God", however, seems to make no sense. --Grimhelm
 * Translating the words rather than the meaning is the failing of translation tools. Jemanden auf den Holzweg führen should always translate as leading someone up the gardenpath and not on the woodway. Obviously we could say misleading someone but that would loose the flavour of the expression. Anyway I placed a verror on the IP's talkpage. -- Agathoclea 12:13, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

as it is, no one has been posting a correct translation, just they way it's been explained to them. i agree that if your going to translate meaning not words, you should go with hello. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.35.222.170 (talk • contribs).


 * It already says greeting. Agathoclea 09:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

- Stoiber is almost gone:

Recent Edit on Religion
I take issue with the following recent text change in the Bavaria article:

Bavarians are typically very conservative Catholics, contrasting markedly with the traditionally protestant and increasingly secular majority in in the rest of Germany.

1) At least one other German state has a make up similar to Bavaria. Baden-Wurtemburg (completely Catholic and quite conservative). There are also other states with a very significant Catholic make up.

In fact, many locations in Germany at one time were either purely Catholic or purely Protestant (the population having adopted the perspective of the local ruler). This situation changed with the very large number of refugees were resettled following the second world war.

2) The perspective, shared by many US Americans, that Europe (including Germany) is a secular society is misleading. Although it is true that few Germans are regular churchgoers, the presumption that Germans are against religion is unquestionable erroneous. In fact, the religious/secular antagonism that so characteristic of the American social climate is completely absent here. Consider:

In Germany, there is no strong separation between church and state: Church leaders sit on media boards deciding programming, children are taught about religion in school, and religion is popular. More than 75% of Germans make a major financial contribution to a church. Churches are maintained in good condition, and there is a very general sentiment of respect for church and it's role in history.

I am therefore reverting the text. Perhaps you will see things otherwise. If so, I will look forward to learning why you hold those views.

--Philopedia 23:33, 7 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Dear Philopedia, I am afraid that I have to correct your first point: The Rhineland is as ardently Catholic (with a capital C) as Bavaria, whereas Baden-Württemberg is mostly Protestant, in particular in the eastern part (Württemberg) but also in places such as Heidelberg, where I remember very clearly that in my class there were 3 catholics and 21 protestants! But certainly, Catholicism is a characteristic trait of Bavarian culture, even though its influence may be waning (which is difficult to ascertain or quantify anyway). -- Sanctacaris

Sanctacaris: actually, Baden-Wuerttemberg (and Heidelberg in particular) have almost equal-sized denominations with a slight Catholic majority. statistics for Heidelberg (see statistics link somewhere there) cite about 35% protestants vs about 40% catholics. the overall situation in Baden-Wuerttemberg is similar, something like 45:40 for Catholics in general. --Kato2k6 21:53, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Masashi Hamauzu
Would Masashi Hamauzu be considered a "Bavarian citizen" (and be included in a list of Bavarians) if he was born and spent his early years in Munich? He is not an ethnic German, of course. - Gilgamesh 06:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

-It said in the article that there is really no such thing as "Bavarian citizenship" in the legal sense. Because he was born in Bavaria, there is no reason he should not be considered a German citizen from Bavaria. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it.

Actually, there IS a Bavarian Citizenship Article (making e.g. everyone born in Bavaria a Bavarian citizen) under the Bavarian State Constitution (which is also legal under the federal constitution). Technically, the Bavarian government could issue separate passports (in addition to German passports) and such, such a law was just never enacted, since it's seen as not necessary --Kato2k6 21:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Rating
I was surprised to see that the article quality is only rated Start. To me, it is looking super, with lots of attractive and well chosen images to complement the thorough and well phrased written content. In fact, I was wondering whether (and how) to go about nominating it as a future Wikipedia article of the day. (Bavaria is still what most English speakers think of when they hear "Germany", causing the subject to generate disproportional interest.) Whether or not we ever see article-of-the-day publication, i think we still deserve praise for work well done. Weiter so!

--Philopedia 23:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

-

Pic assortement
Why are pics of Historical buildings overrepresented? That's really a start class article. 88.64.94.102 (talk) 18:22, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Who is Dr. Albert Kalmar?
And is he really famous? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.224.152.110 (talk) 19:34, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Odd sentence
The following sentence appears at the end of the introduction: About 6.4 million of its population are Bavarian, 4.1 million Franconian and 1.8 million Swabian. Is this talking about the dialects spoken, or about something else? This could probably use a bit more clarification. As it is, it looks a bit strange to say that half the residents of Bavaria aren't Bavarian. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 00:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It's about dialect/culture. Bavarian can refer to the state of Bavaria as well as people from Old Bavaria or the Austro-Bavarian dialects. In German the political entity is spelled Bayern (adjective bay[e]risch), the rest Baiern (bairisch). --ChristianErtl (talk) 01:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Bayrische Kroenungswahl (27.09.2008) zum Bayern Koenig Guenther Beckstein Preis:11.000.000 Euro

 * Ein Bayrischer Meilenstein der christlichen demokratischen bayrischen Demokratie der Europaeischen Koenige und Europaeische Koenigreiche (Vertrag von Lissabon).
 * Ein Bayernsieg mit 49 Prozent bzw. 52.5 Prozent sind wieviel Waehlerstimmen? 500.000, 1.000.000, 1.500.000, 2.000.000 Waehlerstimmen fuer CSU? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.75.209 (talk) 12:30, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

RED CROSS
The article states that the Bavarian Red Cross is an organisation on it's own, but it's NOT!!! It's a normal regional departement (Landesverband) of the German Red Cross, the only thing special is that it's calling itself Bavarian Red Cross while other Landesverbände call themself 'Deutsches Rotes Kreuz - Landesverband (NAME OF STATE)' it uses a special name but it's legally not special, and every other Landesverband could name itself the way the Baverian does  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.233.6 (talk) 19:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Culture Section Too Vague
It needs beefing up. Has huge generalities: eg. Bavaria similar to "Latin" countries (presumably European Latin, not Latin American!) in dress and eating habits (as a Southern Italian, I don't see this, but to a Northern German this distinction is obvious and clear, help the rest of us out here with more specifics). Is it a "Latin" cultural attribute to hold good food and drink in high esteem? Hmmm. There are a lot of pretty rough "redneck" areas in S. Italy that have a pretty crude cuisine, perhaps not too different from the kinds of dishes alluded to as being characteristic of Northern Germany. Interested in knowing if the contributors to this article are "insiders" to the culture (was it written by Bavarians?).--bobo 14:56, 29 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The whole ection is a cliché, that back in the 1950s might have been true, but nowadays is for sure obsolete. Of course there are more catholics than protestans in Bavaria due to historical reasons, but i can't see, that the majority is commitet to faith as the article indicates. Same thing with clothing. In fact, if you meet a traditionaly styled person at the oktoberfest, there's more than 1:1 chance, that it's not a bavarian. The food thing: well, historically it's ok to say, that catholic regions tend to enjoy life life and feats. But since faith not that big thing today, this trend has vanished, too. --Zinnmann 16:50, 4 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Zinnman sums it up precisely: he suggests that the section reeks of cliché, confirming my suspicions. There is an obvious need for a complete reworking of the culture section. I hope that Zinnman or someone else takes up the task. As it stands, the culture section is in a sorry state. It lacks depth and critical acuity. Somebody please fix it!--bobo 12:18, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

Answering the criticisms

As author of the section on culture, I wanted to address the issues raised here.

Certainly, in comparing Bavaria to Latin countries I had in mind France, Spain, Italy etc and not mixed cultures as in Latin America.

In my experience of daily life in Hessen (and elsewhere in much of Germany), it is typical for people of all social backgrounds and educational levels to dress very simply. When I previously lived in Bavaria I was concious that people gave a lot of attention to their appearance. Certainly it would be unusual to encounter a German woman outside of Bavaria who would devote the same attention as a native Bavarian to making herself appear sexy. It would be fair to point out that there remarks are subjective, but it is wrong to say that the remarks are based on outdated impressions (the 50s? in those days people were happy to have clothes on their backs..)

I'm not sure how to deal with the criticism of subjectivity. Perhaps if I worked in marketing for a cosmetics or clothing company, I would have statistics readily at hand. Frankly though, I'm surprised by the objection. Anyone who strolls down the Maximillianstrasse in Munich will notices that women (and men as well) dress very differently than, say, in downtown Braunschweig. The differing values attached to personal appearance remains valid even though (as I am told above) a person wearing Trachten at the Oktoberfest is as likely as not to be a disguised American ;-).

About food - here the criticism seems to agree with me that Bavarians put more care into and get more satisfaction out of eating than other Germans. This time the complaint is that I have unjustifiably elevated the cuisine of the Mezzogiorno. That could be true, but it's beside the point. The point of the article was to compare Bavarians with other Germans and not to compare them with other Europeans! Perhaps I should make that clearer in the text though.


 * Philopedia, I hadn't looked at this page in a very long time. It looks much better! Thanks for taking out the bit about "Latin" cuisines. Any stereotypes (even positive ones!) can get tiresome. Also, I found your retort quite amusing, but missing the point completely. Of COURSE I wasn't criticizing your "praise" of the "Mezzogiorno('s)" cuisine (by the way that term is itself quite out-dated and quite offensive even among Italians, e.g. a Milanese calling a Campanian "someone of the 'Mezzogiorno'" would probably get a swift ass-kicking). But of course, you knew quite well what the point of my criticism was, and I applaud you for artfully editing that section, as it is much improved. As you said, the point of that section was not to make comparisons between Bavarians and other Europeans, but to try to compare/contrast Bavarians with other Germans, and from the looks of it, I would say that you have your hands more than full with that undertaking alone. If I may add one last note, just a brief account of some first-hand experience: having spent time in Switzerland, Italy, Germany, Holland, Belgium, and France, it was a revelation crossing the German border from Switzerland. Maybe Germans were just having a really mirthful month when I was there ;-) but, from Heidelberg to Frankfurt to Aachen (have to plug it: my absolute favorite city in the world) the people were ALL exponentially friendlier, more down-to-earth, and dare-I-say more KIND in general than ANY other Europeans I spent time with. Talk about exploding stereotypes. And by the way, the LEAST friendly people I encountered were in the "Latin" countries (maybe they're stuck-up on account of their superior cuisine). As I recall, the old stereotypes went something like this: Latins=passionate,artistic/Teutons=cold,analytical. Who came up with these things? Bo-Bo Belsinger (talk) 11:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Finally, if someone thinks that religion has ceased to play a role in influencing social attitudes in Bavaria, I would invite them to try to find an all day school anywhere in the Free State. They don't exist! And why should they, when the prevalent (Bavarian Catholic supported) attitude is that women's horizons are properly limited to Kinder, Kirche, Kuche?

--Philopedia 02:07, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Philopedia, after reading your comments I'm not quite sure if we are talking about the same Bavaria. Actually i'm from Munich but i used to live in Stuttgart, Düsseldorf and Kassel too. On average there isn't that big differene in clothing and appearance. Since you mentioned Maximillianstraße (one of the most expensive and exclusive streets in Munich) I reckon that your your observations may be biased towards a specific clientel.
 * Regarding "Social behaviour" i don't think that the average Bavarian can be considered as overwhelming folksy. On the contrary: For non-locals it's quite hard to get into a talk in a pub. Totally different than e.g. in Cologne.
 * All day schools aren't the standard model throughout Germany. That's not a spefic Bavarian peculiarity. Since the PISA-debate of 2000 there have been numerous demands to establish more all day schools. An effort that is vigorously supported by most CSU politicians. Kinder, Kirche, Küche? =:-) Well, that IS the 50s. (Though - if i can trust my grandma - people used wear clothes back than. And if i can trust my grandpa, they then had a feeling of decency when it comes to your wardrobe. :-) --Zinnmann 13:41, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Zinnmann,

Thanks for your well formulated objections. I appreciate that your background and knowledge. I suspect our differing outlook is likely the result of differing approaches to engaging our environment. I am satisfied that we each had a fair chance to put our views forward and have them understood. Short of travelling together through Bavaria and exchanging observations I am think we have completed our due diligence and can in good conscience agree to disagree. The question remains: how to proceed with the article? You've been very considerate to defer changes up until now. Are there any specific changes you feel would do justice to both our views?

--Philopedia 04:49, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, i would suggest to render the historical context more prominent. It's true that Bavaria is traditionally very catholic and conservative, though the religious aspects really are fading away. That would allow to link politics, religion, and food to a common source. On the other hand i recommend to remove the appearance-text. It just isn't correct. Maybe we can replace it with a short notion of "Trachten" and the widespread but nevertheless misleading cliché of every bavaria hanging around in Lederhosen or Dirndl. Is that ok for you? Best wishes & happy new year! --Zinnmann 09:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

I've been living in different locations in Germany and while there are certainly small local peculiarities, I don't think one can make distinctions like clothing style or care for appearance. I'm all for including obvious things like traditional clothing or local food, but more in a "trivia" kind of way and not as prominent (= first paragraph) as it is now. It's also a bit confusing for people outside of Germany since there really is no point of reference for them. Another problem I'd like to address is that Bayern consists of many cultural backgrounds. Not just the differnece between big cities and smaller towns, but I'd say there is a quite a difference between the Franconia region around Nuremberg, the Swabian part around Augsburg/Neu-Ulm and the Allgäu region in the south. I commend you for your work Philopedia, but I think you should focus more on describing historical/cultural "oddities" ;-) without the influence of personal experiences or stereotypes.

---

Maybe some notes from Germany (i.e. Bavaria ;) ) on this. As I read the part Many people in the northern part of Bavaria see themselves as Franconians and do therefore not like to be called "Bavarians". They have a separate dialect and don't wear typical Bavarian clothing. I started laughing. Oh, well, I live in Franconia for quite a while now, but pay numerous visits to the Bavarian capital of Munich. I also know some people in Passau whom I visit very often. First of all, it is true that a greater number Bavarian people is religious. Also true, most of them are considered conservative. Bavarians are also very fond of their country, and Franconians sometimes decline to be Bavarians, as well as Bavarians sometimes say Franconia is not Bavaria. ;)

What I want to emphasize here is the "greater number" and "most of them". Many things are changing in Germany, and also Bavaria gets mixed up with other cultures and global thinking. Especially towns like Munich, which do certainly have a certain distinct style, tend to open up. Munich is a modern business city where lots of non-Bavarian or "normal" Bavarian people live.

The culture section must therefore make clear that not all inhabitants are a "stereotype" Bavarian being religiously fanatic and wearing leather pants...

Especially the clothing section I don't understand. I was born and raised in Hesse, and I found no considerable change in clothing style between Hesse and Bavaria. Ok, you can argue, I now live in Franconia, where people don't dress like the "usual" Bavarian - but how comes I never spotted a difference in Nuremberg, Munich, Passau, Regensburg, the Allgäu, Berchtesgaden, ....? So please leave that out unless you find a citeable document proving that.

And distinguish between "Trachten" and "clothing" :)

Greetings from Nuremburg, LJ, April 20, 2006

I am a rookie when it comes to Bavarian culture, so it would be appreciated if there were an article about "Bavarian Culture" that not only compares and contrasts Bavarian and non-Bavarian but also describes in further detail what defines Bavarian culture.

DaDoc540 02:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The culture section is full of inapropiate stereotypes. Unluckily my very reasonable edits - yes most of them are just deleting stuff are set back to horror over and over. Trust me no one seriously considers beer as a "grundnahrungsmittel" Its a joke thats all. The type of stuff drunk people say... And no, Bavaria has no special traditon of teaching dialect poems and songs at nursery school. How can anyone take the time to edit my changes in minutes but not see all the crap in the article. 84.56.121.192 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 23:49, 11 November 2008 (UTC).

Congratulations for editing back all my changes. You think Munich RE is no major company or its not headquartered in Bavaria? You think some sub headquarter of EADS ( which has three "headquarters" of which the bavarian one is the least important is worth mentioning instead. You seriously think the CSU "represents Bavaria in the Bundestag? The CSU is just one party of 5 parties whit bavarian delegates in the Bundestag. Bavaria is a democracy the CSU has no representation monopoly.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.121.192 (talk) 00:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

"Frei statt Bayern"
The term "Frei statt Bayern" is mostly used by franconians to demonstrate that franconia is a seperate region of germany and not really a part of bavaria (in a cultural way) - BloodyJack, 26 Dezember (Yes, this User is a real bavarian, sorry for any misspelling) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.11.122.2 (talk) 02:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Those stuff about "frei statt bayern is really odd" How is that relevant in the first place? And why is it right at the start as if its important? And where are the "many Germans" saying it. Makes much morse sense the way you describe it as some local joke in Franken 84.56.81.123 (talk) 00:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Culture - long independence?
Bavaria was part of the First German Empire (HRRDN) till 1806. When the Empire got abolished 1806 all former parts became independent.

1871 most parts of the First Empire reunited as the Second German Empire (Deutsches Kaiserreich). Between 1806 and 1871 all parts of Germany were independent -> Bavaria was no longer independent than any other part of Germany!

I think the real reason for our (I am Bavarian) distinct culture is the following fact: Bavaria was always weaker than its concurrents in the First German Empire. Bavaria had no right to vote the Emperor for most time and it was endangered by Habsburg (Austria + Hungary +...) in the late First German Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.135.153.217 (talk) 22:34, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Beer and Beergardens and more
I concur this article is misleading and very bias in several ways. There is no clear explanation (culture and history) between Franconians and Bavarians or let alone the Bohemians, Swabians, and Upper Palatinate. Apparently the Bohemians were expelled and resettled into Bavaria? Multiculturalism and co-existence (they really think everyone is catholic) what about Protestants and god forbid Hindus, or Moslems; woe auslander! Big issue in Munich, the Moslems want to build a big mosque, woe auslander! What about separation of state and church? The state collects levy for the church (the pope) is this true and worthy to be mentioned? What about the Gay King Louise II? Is anyone going into more detail? Ludwig and his lover, King Ludwig and Richard Wagner. Who cares about the Socialist party (SPD) the Pope party (CSU), and the Eco Communists (Green) in the state senate what about Bavaria and what it means?

I have been to a lot of different places such as Lohr, Wurzburg, Aschaffenburg, Straubing, Weiden, Regensburg, Munchen, Spitzing, Augsburg and a few more. Very bad service about everywhere – I really think they don’t know what service is-ever gone to a baker and order a bread at 1755HRS (5:55PM) in Bavaria? Ever experienced what it means to be a roach or a rat? How terribly strange this culture wants to be – Free State –shouldn’t it be translated as confederate state? Religious holidays and state mandated blue laws at this time and age. And do not forget 20% sales tax!

Please someone write something about ‘Beamten’ very strange creatures (strangely Nosferatu comes to mind very unsettling) I think they have been trained to be disagreeable and inapt – go to Lohr and park in the “sectioned” parking lot near the hospital and try to locate the machine for paying a ‘parkschine’. Notice all these Verboten! Earn yourself a ticket and very strange forms to be presented to your bank for payment. Imagine Chase or Wachovia Bank with an 'Überweisung’ – ever heard of it? Have you ever paid a ticket in Bavaria; world class slapstick in the Rathouse – No Credit Card, Debit Card, or checks – Du mus zalen überweisung!!! Wo sin wir den da! Why isn’t there a Tourist Section with Visiting Bavaria for Dummies?

Bavaria is very picturesque for a day, but someone please write about the backwardness, stupidity, and rudeness, plus the smoking in the restaurants – unbearable! Interestingly even the Italians complain about the foul stench in the “gastwirtschaften” and the Irish and the French called it disgusting. Anyone with a medical condition or traveling with children should be advised to avoid Bavaria or bring your own canned food and eat it in your vehicle. Ouch I have been too long in Bavaria I have started to complain which is the national pass time activity. Regards, Jay from Chicago/Sidney/Vancouver.

re: Jay yes, i know, it's (hopefully?) a troll, but... Why isn’t there a Tourist Section with Visiting Bavaria for Dummies? because this is an encyclopedia. simple as that. none of what you wrote about "culture" above isn't in any way particular to Bavaria, btw. It's also a nice joke to refer to the Greens as "eco-communists" since in Southern Germany they're rather conservative and centrist compared to other German states. Kato2k6 01:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

It's close to a wonder that this article does not mention "beer". Franconia is the area with the most breweries/km² and Bavarian "Biergärten" (beer gardens) are known and famous at least throughout the whole of Germany. Moreover, is there any other place where one usually drinks beer in 1 liter mugs? :)

Just wondering. --LostJedi 14:07, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

@Jay: Off-topic (kindoff): Why have you been to so many places in Bavaria if you hate it so much? Talk about spreading stereotypes and prejudice. Ts, ts ...

I am German (not Bavarian!!) and I lived in England and in the USA for some time. I could write a similarly malicious article especially about England, but also about the USA. I do not do it, because the real reason for seeing a country in your way is that you expect everybody in the world to be exactly as you and your country are. Fortunately everybody is different. - Besides your comment on smoking is no longer true. There are new anti-smoking laws in Germany and Bavaria's laws are the strictest: smoking in public places and restaurants is forbidden. And closing time of shops has been changed. They can be open up to 10:00 pm and they are discussing to allow shops to open 24 hours a day. No problem to buy some bread at 5:55pm or on Sundays. ---E.S. 9:55am 26 March 2008  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.165.98.10 (talk) 08:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC) - You better be careful with the BYO in beergardens. In the traditional ones it is ok, and there is also a judgment (maybe 10 years ago) wich says, that if the restaurant calls itself beergarden, there MUST be a place, where you can eat your own food, but usually this places are somewhere in the last corner and you have to get your beer by your own from the counter. Also in the big gardens of munic for exampel they dont like it much....

Beergarden is just a name. Actually, the beergarden is the outside section of a restaurant. But drinking your own, if you really want it, self-imported beer in public, go to a park: drinking alcohol in public is legal in germany! And 'bout smoking in restaurants: Thre's a federal law on its way which fobids it. Please sorry my english, I'm from Baden (The other state in Southgermany) Michael Haesle

About the Reheinheitsgebot. This article contains the usual myth about the "Beer Purity Marketing Law," claiming that the original 1516 law was in effect until superseded by the EU regulations. That's bollocks. The original law allowed only three ingredients: barley, hops, and water. It has been violated since the invention of yeast culturing, in the 1860s. If yeast is allowed as a discrete ingredient, the original 1516 restriction to only the three ingredients is violated. And in the 1990s (even earlier, I believe), German federal law allowed all kinds of other ingredients. Wheat is a prime example. Hop extract was also allowed, which typically contained a small amount of distilled grain alcohol. Various forms of finings have also been allowed. The part of the 1516 Rheinheitsgebot limiting beer to only three ingredients has been violated for centuries, and the persistent claims about it surviving until the EU laws came into effect are without basis. It's a marketing ploy, used for generations by German breweries, even though they know full well that it's not true. The three-ingredient restriction collapsed before the start of the twentieth century, after Pasteur identified the role of yeast.

Hello! I am from Bavaria and live in the very south east part - close to the Austrian border. I just would like to mention that the sales tax was increased from 16% to 19% in 2007. We never ever had 20%! Thanks for your attention - Danny —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.144.240.178 (talk) 16:21, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Politics
I think it should be noted in politics of bavaria, that one party (CSU) has had the majority since the elections in 1962, shouldn't it? Xorx77 16:55, 19 May 2004 (UTC) It should be noted that bavaria is a de facto dictatorship. Maybe there should be some remark on that after the expression "multi party system". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.145.113.24 (talk) 16:01, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Additional info: The CSU had to build up a coalition together with the FDP (free democratic party) after the last elections to keep the majority - Danny (from Bavaria) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.144.240.178 (talk) 16:46, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Secession Rights?
I heard somewhere that Bavaria is the only state in Germany with the legal right to secede from the Federal Republic if it wants. Is this true? Rhesusman 23:00, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

No that is not true. Saxony (Sachsen) is a "Freistaat", too. And the definition of a "Freistaat" is to have the legal right to secede. But this right is of no significance. You cannot compare it to the legal right for Germany e.g. to secede from EU.


 * Do the Free Cities (Freistädte), Hamburg and Bremen, also have the right to secede? john k 18:04, 14 July 2005 (UTC)


 * According to http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freistaat, the term "Freistaat" does not imply anything. It is just a traditional name for some of the Bundesländer (Sachsen, Bayern, Thüringen). The term "Freie Stadt" comes from a different, older tradition. Afaik, the German constitution does not handle any of the states in a special way when it comes to secession rights.141.30.217.10 20:16, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


 * "Free state" is not about secession but about being a democracy (up to 1918, Bavaria was a kingdom). In this respect, all Bundesländer are free states but most simply call themselves republics. The "Freistaat" article is wrong in assuming that these Free States have any particular relationship to the Federal Republic; such a thing is not allowed/allowable under the Grundgesetz which does not grant special rights to or impose special duties on any particular group of citizens unless these are regional by nature. E.g. schools are a matter of the Bundesländer, but each of them is equally independent, and the highest courts are a Federal matter, to which the citizens of all the Bundesländer are equally subject. -- Sanctacaris, 16.1.2006


 * Exactly. "Freistaat" is just an obsolete synonyme for "Republic" ("obsolete" in the sense that even many Germans don't understand it correctly). A "Freistaat" is not a state that has more freedoms in the federation compared to other federal states, it's just a state that guarantees certain freedoms to its citizens, i.e. a Republic. The translation to "Free State" is problematic because it has a slightly different meaning or at least additional meanings in English, but Bavaria really doesn't have more autonomy than any other federal state. ;) --62.180.188.21 23:25, 28 April 2006 (UTC)


 * The expression "Freistaat" appeared for the first time after the abdication of the last bavarian king Ludwig III. in November 1918. It was used (and probably designed, too) by the first democratic head of state Kurt Eisner to describe the new political situation in the country (as already said before). Greetings from Bavaria ;-) 84.150.224.193 19:57, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * No German state has the right to secede from the Federal Republic, just as no one has the right to do away with the states as the basis of Germany's federal organisation. Free State, as others have said, simply means Republic and was very common a name between the wars. Since Bavaria is one of the few states that has suvived in its substance and most states nowadays simply call themselves "Land" - not "Republic", only Baden ever called itself Republic), the term does however connotate a higher awareness of one's own hisrorical continuity. This is why Saxony adopted the term in 1990. Str1977 (smile back) 14:27, 2 October 2006 (UTC)


 * What everyone here forget´s to say is that Bavaria was never part of the federal republic germany. we voted against the constitution and the annexation through germany. we were made part of germany because the allied countries "forced" as to become part of germany. So in fact bavaria has his own constitution and so it normally is a own state under oppression of the german state and in that fact the UN give us the right to secede. Greetings from Bavaria;-) 84.146.242.146 19:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Our parliament, the Landtag voted against the Basic Law, but it also said that the Basic Law should come into force if the other Länder agree to it, and so they did.--Son sonson 15:29, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

"Secession Rights?"
 * As far as I know (not 100% sure) every German state has the right to split of Germany by popular vote —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.240.26 (talk) 19:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No German state has the right to secede. By popular vote regions within states have the right to form new states, or realign themselves with other states. Has been done twice in a major fusion, successful: fusion of Württemberg-Baden, Südbaden, Württemberg-Hohenzollern in 1953; failed: fusion of Brandenburg and Berlin in 1996. Also has been used in a number of small realignments where single municipalities and territories "switched" states. Kato2k6 (talk) 08:43, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * But that would imply that succession is unconstitutional —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.233.168 (talk) 10:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ummm, yes - secession is unconstitutional and illegal. It is one of the few cases where the Federal Government may use the Military internally by constitution against such a seceding state. The Basic Law also contains plenty of other provisions against states that do not cooperate with the federal government in grave circumstances. Kato2k6 (talk) 10:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
 * But then Bayernpartei is unconstitutional and would have been banned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.234.127 (talk) 16:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The part above about being annexed by Germany after World War II is nonsense, as the Basic Law didn't create a new country, but gave an existing one - the German Empire founded in 1871 - a new constitution. 84.129.185.146 (talk) 09:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

moved comment from article to talk page

 * Legen Sie schon mal ihren Taschenrechner bereit, weil auf den 115 Seiten finden Sie 10.000 Zahlen in Prozent ausgedrueckt, wie die Zahlen genau sind geht aus diesem Staatsbericht der CSU Staatsregierung nicht hervor!
 * Auf Seite 21 wird geschrieben, dass die mehr 10.000.000 Bayern ein Nettoeinkommen von 2622 Euro bzw. 1732 Euro haben, dass ist falsch! Rentner, Staatsdiener Bund/Land, Kinder, Studenten, Arbeiter, Bauern haben kein Einkommen in Hoehe von 5244 Deutsche Mark bzw. 3464 Deutsche Mark! Schaetzugsweise nur 1.300.000 Menschen in Oberbayern haben einen Sozialversicherungspflichtigen Arbeitsplatz und davon haben hoechsten 200.000 Bayern einen monatlichen Nettoverdienst von mehr als 2000 Euro Netto! Es gilt das Mathematische Gesetz, dass ermittelte Zahlen (auch in Prozent ausgedrueckt) plausibel sein muessen!

Originally written by  — (Lars T. (talk) 23:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC))
 * http://www.stmas.bayern.de/sozialpolitik/sozialbericht/sb2-kap01.pdf

Die Toten Hosen
Are the links for FC Bayern and the song by Die Toten Hosen on the top of the page really necessary? Wouldn't including both of these links in the disambiguation be a better method of delievery? Erikeltic (talk) 19:56, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Since there is no Bayern (disambiguation) page, and the redirect from "Bayern" to "Bavaria" is pretty obvious, the headnote seems to be in accordance to Hatnote. Feel free to create the disambiguation page and change the headnote to link to it. Lars T. (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I followed the example set by the difference between CCCP and USSR and made the Bayern disambiguation page. Erikeltic (talk) 18:55, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Kingdom of Prussia
I'm afraid I don't understand the single sentence second paragraph about Bavaria being the only German  State that never belonged to the Kingdom of Prussia. This is manifestly untrue. Neither did the Kingdom of Saxony, the Kingdom of Wuerttemberg, the Grand Duchy of Baden nor the Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg/Strelitz/ Schwerin and Oldenburg,etc. belong to the Kingdom of Prussia. That needs to be corrected if it means what it says. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Headman13 (talk • contribs) 15:26, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

History of Bayern
Can anyone enlighten me about this? Does anyone know anything about Bavaria and its standing two centuries ago, three, four? The plight of the people of Bavaria before settlement? I'd really be interested. I'd also like to know more about Bavaria joining Germany and Austria not being a part of it. I have friends from Bavaria who still speak of Bavaria as a repressed state, with Austro-Bavarian, or the Bavarian language having no official status because of the influential Low German etc. There seems to be no page telling of Bavaria's developments since early Germanic settlement. Celtmist 26-10-05

The name "Bayern" was not given by the roman. This is the name of there living nation since the fall of the roman empire - sorry for my english. But today there live three nations in Bayern. The Bayern in the south-east, Schwaben( in culture an language to Baden-Würtenberg and Schweiz) the Franken in the north. They all have a own language and culture, but Bayern its not like Germany a Federation. The non bavarian parts of bavaria are take by war with other german nations.

"Austro-Bavarian"? tell an Austrian he's Bavarian, or a Bavarian he's Austrian, and he'll laugh you in the face. The Bavarian language is a dialect of High German, and has no official status like all other German dialects. Low German is a minority language (and not a dialect of High German, which is the official German language) spoken on the North Sea coast only, and only has a "protected" status as such itself. --Kato2k6 22:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

In fact, the Austo-Bavarian languages are linguistically seperated in Upper Bavarian, Middle Bavarian and Lower Bavarian languages. Upper Bavarian is spoken in Garmisch-Partenkirchen and Innsbruck, Middle Bavarian in Munich and Vienna. In German language the bavarian languages are called "bairisch", but in relation to the state, "bayrisch" is used. Why this is that way, ask a better expert, but this is definately that way!

Here are some details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Bavarian_language —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.161.79.4 (talk) 09:03, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

What you call High German would be Standard German, the term High German is something different in linguistic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 113.161.79.4 (talk) 09:07, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Famous People
Changed "Dictator" to "Great Leader." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.41.51.48 (talk) 23:14, 22 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Changed it back. -- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 23:35, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

images
I just removed a large number of images added today. The article already has more than enough images, at an appropriate size for the article given their number. The new images were all too large and dominated the article, making it look more like a page from a tour brochure than an encyclopaedia article.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 23:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Thread below copied from User_talk:JohnBlackburne -- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 00:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi,

could you please not just delete all the changes i made to the bavaria article

compared to the version as it is now, it was a thousand times better before! look at the article now, there are just ugly, few pictures... you even deleted the better map with the different regions and the language map. you deleted all i did. almost everyone would say that it was better with that pictures i think. it was appealing... people often just watch the pictures first... so why cant we perhaps just delete the small pictures and leave the others there

Kind regards SlaskiAnanasek91 (talk) 00:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I gave my reasons on the talk page, so it would be best to comment there, where other editors can also contribute. I would add to my comments there the following, "Wikipedia is not the place to recreate content more suited to entries in hotel or culinary guides, travelogues, and the like," from WP:NOTTRAVEL-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 00:06, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

yes but you just deleted everything i did with one click even though u saw exactly how long it took me to insert all the pictures. at least u could have looked which of the changes improved the article and which not. the map of the regions was better than the one which is there now, and the austro-bavarian language picture is also gone, many of the pictures were better than the old ones, and you could also not have deleted all pictures but u could have downsized them, or have left half of them and so on... but just deleting everything shows that u presumably havent compared the new and the old version. the version as it is now, is ugly i think and with my version, many more would have read the article i think SlaskiAnanasek91 (talk) 00:18, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I had a look at only reverting some of your changes but even in the first one the images were too large and too many at once: I was looking for the quickest way to get it looking like an encyclopaedia article. As noted there are already more than enough pictures: there are so many that most are crammed together in a gallery, too small to see. Whether some of them could replace existing images is a different issue, as that is much more subjective, but that is not how they were added before I removed them.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 00:33, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

but why cant we leave the pictures on the right because that doesnt destroy the article, because then there is a continous stripe of pictures on the right, and the rest is the article. i sized all photos exactly the same so that all fits in one row. thats very clearly arranged. and one can change the position of the photos so that it fits to the text left of it. and we could delete the small pictures instead, and we could also downsize the pictures if they r too bigSlaskiAnanasek91 (talk) 00:43, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * See WP:STACKING for the guideline on not stacking images on the right: it causes problems for section edit links, for text flow and general layout. E.g. in your last version at a reasonable 800px width one of the tables and the gallery of coats of arms overlap the column of images. Even smaller they would have the same problem, so they should be in a gallery. But the article already has a very large gallery.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 00:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Play nicely in the sandbox, children. Slaski, you might try adding a few of the pictures to the individual articles, instead of all in this one.  John, you might try helping Slaski add some pictures to this article, and expanding the text at the same time. It's not a matter of simply adding pictures, but to link the pictures to the article so that they enhance the article.  Auntieruth55 (talk) 18:08, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Why is adam weishapt not mentioned? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.230.255.4 (talk) 17:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Bavarian Flag
Shown is the Bavarian flag in its most simple form, used on ships and border posts. More common is the chequered white-blue flag. Trivia: Bavarians get upset when one says "blue-white" and not "white-blue" because in the simplest form white is above blue.

Bavarian flag variants Image showing flag flying —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rangutan (talk • contribs) 23:05, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Adolf Hitler - Famous Painter?
I'm not sure I should be the one to address this myself, (I do not know if it's already been discussed somewhere other than here) but I find it extremely odd that Adolf Hitler, under famous people is listed as a painter. Considering he never rose to fame on this account, I believe that his entry should either be removed, or his title changed to something more appropriate. Is it some sort of disturbing joke? It's very distasteful for him to be remembered as a "painter", and not what he truly was. 76.105.30.89 (talk) 05:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. It's inappropriate and should be cut from the article.   Erikeltic ( Talk ) 16:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

A minor correction in Economy, incorrect use of GDP comparison.
I have made a minor correction in economy, replacing logically incorrect text that Bavarian GDP in the 18th in the world by more correct that it is lower than GDP of only 17 world countries. The first text was inherently incorrect since many large provinces in large countries have higher GDP (for instance, at least 5 US states) than that of Bavaria, and the "18th" would not be correct in a valid comparison. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.221.12 (talk) 21:30, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Germanic naming absolutely
In modern Scandinavian word for peasant,farmer is bo-nde combination of verb bo:to live ,to inhabit and Scandinavian ending -nde. If we take this Germanic root -'bo' and create a noun with popular Germanic ending for nouns related to men's occupation : -'er' it would be 'bo-er'..'bo-y-er-' .Which is exactly 'Bayer'-/engl. Bavaria/ ,don't you agree.Since Swedish originates from middle Sweden it obviously could not be influenced by any continental Celts or Romans,yet Swedish easily can be used to comprehend the etymological root and meaning of word Bayer. Maybe Swedish is too foreign to many,but anyone knows Dutch word for settlers in South Africa and Ceylon-'Boer' (pronounced /ˈbʊər/, /ˈboʊ.ər/, or /ˈbɔər/; Afrikaans: [ˈbuːr]) is the Dutch word for farmer. Etymologically related .So, please, spare that Celtic agenda - for this word is as Germanic as it can be. Edelward (talk) 12:05, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The german word for farmer is Bauer, Bûwære in middle high german, and shares the same roots as anbauen (cultivate plans) and bauen (to build a house). Bayern was originally (before Napoleon) spelled Baiern and deives from baio-warioz a nomadic celtic tribe and is related to "bohemia" and "bovine" as well as the indogermanian "wer" = man (see also latin "vir" or Werewolf = Man-Wolf). So Baiern originally meant something between Cattle Men and People from Bohemia.--84.156.67.69 (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

"Right-wing" extremist
What makes the National Socialist German Workers Party "right-wing", especially at that time? (Seems to me matter of forcing in political bias)

The party platform is very socialist, Hitler in power increased welfare payments to poor people, and shifted taxes to tax poor less and rich people more. The head thug of the SA was openly gay till the night of long knives (which occurred much later)

Much of nazi "extremism" in their writings is claimed based on the popular at time "social darwinism"/survival of fittest/eugenics, which would also be "liberal" left wing popular with young intellectuals in universities and disputed by the more orthodox/conservative religious element that disliked darwin.

I dropped the "Right-wing" part, just called them extremists, the nationalism/white supremist part is more right wing, but many other parts of nazi are left wing or liberal by todays way of measuring. If needed I can try to find a bunch of references, including from the pages on actual nazi writings, the night of long knives, and on Nazi social policies when in power.

174.3.135.28 (talk) 19:09, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Religion and Schools
I'd always believed that the German (and even Austrian) school system was non-denominational. Students in Gymnasiums were Catholic and Protestants, and the fact that these two groups could grow up together might be why Germany has had little inter-Christian religious strife. Also: if Bavaria is conservative, why does Munich have a nudist park? Granted, cities do tend to accept diversity more than do towns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.156.43.8 (talk) 19:41, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Well the non-denominational school is of comparatively new evolution and was introduced at the end of the 1960s; and also I don't think that has been ground for the little interreligious strife. Rather the fact that back in the days, we had some quite big religious strife. Also: Munich has a nudist park not because it isn't conservative (which, nevertheless, happens to be true; it has as long-standingly SPD mayors as Bavaria a CSU majority) but because German conservatism has comparatively little to do with the question of whether we tolerate nudists or not; the said park is the content of quite friendly ridicule by the whole conservative populace, and it will frequently appear in children's picturebooks that somebody has lost his way to this park and wonders at the strange people there present. As a matter of fact, using the American antonym which is no German antonym, Bavarians proudly confess: "Liberal samma scho, aber bläd samma net." We're liberal but we're not stupid. --93.133.235.16 (talk) 22:00, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Original research?
I added the template due to sentences like: "However, many Germans sarcastically refer to Bavaria as..." and "Bavarians are particularly proud of...". Sentences like these are original research if they don't have a verifiable source to back them up. 91.95.6.80 (talk) 18:27, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * More original research with mentions of "Bavarian pride" has made its way into the article ("With uninterrupted statehood since at least 554 A.D., Bavaria is proud to be the oldest still existing state all over the continent."), which I am removing. This particular sentence adds nothing encyclopedic to the article, which already tracks Bavaria's history back to 550, and further, doesn't offer a source comparing every other state in every country in Europe. Peter (talk) 00:55, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * There'll assuredly come enough Bavarians along to do the corrections of what things they're proud and of what not; and I can think of only one question where they are really devided. Some believe that all Bavarians (that is, all old-Bavarians) are by common opinion seperatist; others affirm that while being Bavarians, they are decidedly German; though Bavarians first, and would follow a Bavarian majority into seperation, after voting for upholding unity. But that's rather the rare exception of a division. --93.133.235.16 (talk) 22:07, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Bavarian government during Wiemar Republic -- and after?
What was the status of Bavaria within the Wiemar Republic? Was the Wiemar Republic a federal system, and if so was the government of Bavaria defined mostly by the federal government or by itself? Or was Bavaria just a local government? Specifially, was the judiciary defined by Bavarian or Wiemar law? I am trying to track down the People's Court of Bavaria (de:Volksgericht (Bayern)), some sort of special court (Sondergerichte) like the later (or possibly the same?) People's Court of Germany (de:Volksgerichtshof). This article and the History of Bavaria article seem to only give the 1918 to 1933 period one or two small paragraphs, and leave out what happened between when the Bavarian Socialist Republic fell in May 1919 and the 1923 Beer Hall Putsch, which was dealt with using this Bavarian Volksgericht court.

This is most unfortunate, and leaves me, and probably others, clueless about the state of affairs, much less government, during this crucial time period: 15 very tumultuous, important years in which Germans lost all sorts of civil rights, like the right to trial by jury in Germany that has never been seen again, when the Nazis rose to power, and the seeds for what would become the most deadly war in history were laid. Int21h (talk) 21:08, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You're stabbing into a hornet's nest... there was a "Konflikt Bayern-Reich" that sometimes wasn't very far from civil war or mutiny terms; some General declared himself CiC of the Bavarian Army without mandate from the Reich President (being the Reich CiC), but with mandate by the government, illegal in Reich law terms... (a situation that happened to be exploited by a Hitler in the Beer Hall Putch)... But I have no time; nor professional knowledge.--93.133.235.16 (talk) 22:16, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Sorry -- I'm so new to this that I don't know how to properly interject on the talk page -- but I'm curious (as a consumer rather than an editor) in the status of the various German states during the post-WWII era. Is there no mention at all about Bavaria's membership in the West German republic? It's a bit like an article about Texas or Wales that doesn't mention its former confederated or divided status. I know that things would get complex very quickly with all of the hundreds of German political units over the last thousand years -- but we're talking about the latter half of the last century. Seems like there should be some details. What about the formerly East German border? It was in the... north of Bavaria?

Social Behaviour
I am reinstating an entry comparing Bavarian social behaviour with behaviour elsewhere in Germany. This was a carefully considered entry, and the editor who removed it has declined a long standing invitation to discuss the point.

Wikipedia guidelines insist that sources be verifiable. In this context I should mention Geert Hofstede's book Cultures Consequences, which analysed several hundred thousand responses to questionaires on cultural attitudes world wide.

--Philopedia 01:36, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The name "Bayern" was not given by the roman. This is the name of there living nation since the fall of the roman empire - sorry for my english. But today there live three nations in Bayern. The Bayern in the south-east, Schwaben( in culture an language to Baden-Würtenberg and Schweiz) the Franken in the north. They all have a own language and culture, but Bayern its not like Germany a Federation. The non bavarian parts of bavaria are take by war with other german nations.


 * Actually, Bavaria got them through Napoleon. Fulcher 10:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * No, we did not lead war for them, though I happen to be ashamed at what we did in Tyrol after we had got it. There was a major rearrangement of German lands and, while I'm certainly no fan of the secularization which comes practically to stealing exchange lands from the Church, we did lose other lands, peacefully acquired, then: Jülich, Kleve, the Rhenish Palatinate, on regaining the Palatinate in 1815 the Grandduchy of Berg, and with its French occupation (as opposed to Bavaria's American) in 1815 the Palatinate again. The Wittelsbachs before the French revolution were, after all, a majorly important dynasty which is sometimes overlooked because they didn't achieve a royal title.--91.34.240.6 (talk) 13:22, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

The Bavarian flag
The flag usually seen is the one with rhombuses. Both are equally official: "The Bavarian State Flags The Free State of Bavaria has two official flags, one with stripes and one with rhombuses, of equal status [my emphasis]. The striped flag consists of two equal horizontal stripes in the Bavarian colours, white on top, blue below. The rhomboid flag consists of at least 21 white and blue rhombuses including the incomplete ones at the edges of the flag. Long thin flags can include more rhombuses. In any case, however, the heraldic top right-hand corner (that is the top left-hand corner from the point of view of the observer) must be occupied by an incomplete white rhombus." [Source: ] --Boson (talk) 00:07, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The appropriate regulation is Section 1 of the Verwaltungsanordnung über die bayerischen Staatsflaggen und die Dienstflaggen an Kraftfahrzeugen (Flaggen-Verwaltungsanordnung - VwAoFlag) as promulgated 4 December 2001 [GVBl 2001, p. 1077]: "1) Bayerische Staatsflaggen sind die Streifenflagge und die Rautenflagge; Streifenflagge und Rautenflagge stehen einander gleich." [The Bavarian flags are the striped flag and the flag with rhombuses; the striped flag and the flag with rhombuses have equal status.] " --Boson (talk) 00:33, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Neighbour states
Which are "the three sovereign states on Bavaria's borders"? The "German Democratic Republic" is no longer a sovereign state (since 1990). Switzerland has no border with Bavaria, since there are no fixed borders in the upper lake of Constance. --- Riggenbach (talk) 06:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * By land it is Austria and the Czech republic. By water it is Switzerland -- a maritime border is still a border, fixed or not.   Erikeltic ( Talk ) 20:40, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Aaah, a maritime border. I was not aware that Britain and the USA are neighbour states, but indeed, they share a maritime border ... Riggenbach (talk) 00:09, 28 December 2011 (UTC)


 * There are international waters between Britain and the USA; so they do not share a border.--Boson (talk) 09:41, 28 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Those are international waters between the US and Britain and not controlled exclusively by either country. That's a totally different animal.  The water between Switzerland and Bavaria are controlled by each country and that forms the maritime border.   Erikeltic ( Talk ) 12:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Levi Strauss
is Levi Strauss a scintific? McCuack70 (talk) 03:52, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Section on "German-Bavarian relations"
Since March 2011, the following section has been challenged for its lack of references and its lack of neutrality. It is a stand-alone section that apparently lacks consensus about its presence. Is there an editor willing to edit it and address its problems? 64.126.86.214 (talk) 15:04, 27 November 2012 (UTC)

The Bayernpartei (Bavaria Party), which is not represented in parliament, advocates Bavarian independence from Germany. Bavaria was the only state to reject the West German constitution in 1949, but this did not prevent the implementation of the constitution it when it was ratified by the majority of the other German states. One of Germany's principal political parties, the Christian Democratic Union (CDU), is replaced in Bavaria by the Christian Social Union of Bavaria (CSU), but in practice the two parties cooperate fully in the Bundestag. Bavaria had its own border police force, separate from the Federal Border Guard, until Austria's EU accession in 1995.

Furthermore, the people from the three northern districts of Bavaria known as Franconia (Mittelfranken, Oberfranken and Unterfranken), do not all consider themselves as Bavarian. They have their own history and celebrate their own identity, which is distinct from southern Bavaria, and symbolized by the Franconian rake (Fränkischer Rechen). The flag is often seen during local festivals. Franconian nationalists would also like to see their own Bundesland Franken "Federal State of Franconia".

Tribes
Four Bavarian tribes are: the Old Bavarians, the Franconians, the Swabians and the Sudeten Germans (and all the ethnic German refugees; the "New Bavarians"). Source: Das Land Bayern: Menschen in Bayern - Tradition und Zukunft, URL: http://www.bayern.de/Menschen-in-Bayern-.2549/index.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.168.13.98 (talk) 12:13, 6 January 2013‎ (UTC)
 * That claim has been added repeatedly by 213.195.215.190 and reverted by several editors, myself included. The source is the official advertisement site for Bavaria, hardly a scholarly source that can be used as an authority on "tribes". The IP has been blocked twice for edit warring, and the person has tried to re-add the claim from a municipal library. I'm sorry for leaving out the edit summary when I reverted it (my finger slipped on my laptop), but you should be more careful with your accusations of "vandalism". Favonian (talk) 12:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Bayern.de (http://www.bayern.de/Menschen-in-Bayern-.2549/index.htm) are official websites of Bavaria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.168.13.98 (talk) 13:44, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This information is OK. In Bavaria are really 4 (3 original and 1 new) tribes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.113.59.254 (talk) 16:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Is it worth adding the Bavarians article in here?
There is a newly created Wiki page Bavarians which is good but I think it should also be put on this page too.--English Patriot Man (talk) 18:39, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Protectorate of Bohemia/Moravia
How much of the modern Czech republic (in km2 and mi2) was annexed to Bavaria? --JamesR1701E (talk) 13:05, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * only a very small part - mainly the Bohemian Forest Region178.210.114.106 (talk) 16:14, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Name
Shouldn't that be either Bundesländer or states? --Brion 05:36 Sep 19, 2002 (UTC)

I agree with you, I would be in favor of Bundesländer - User:Olivier.

Bavaria is not the correct name. This should be under Bayern. Lir 22:27 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

No, Bavaria is fine. This is an English encyclopedia. See http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayern for Bayern. -- JeLuF from Germany

bavaria is not fine, 'cos you do not translate names! -- User:Shadak from Germany 15:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.7.51.99 (talk)
 * well of course you don't translate Neustadt to Newtown - but Bavaria is the proper English name of Bayern —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.240.26 (talk) 19:53, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
 * You don't translate names of people, but you DO translate the names of certain countries and places, or else the name of the article about Germany would have to be changed to Deutschland, the name of the German article about Italy would have to be changed from Italien to Italia etc. and I think we agree on the fact that this would be nonsense. Just because Bavaria is not a sovereign state but a part of Germany does not mean that this cannot be applied to it as well. This is the English Wikipedia, not the German one. --89.52.73.127 (talk) 21:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I also respectfully disagree with the use of the name Bavaria. According to the Getty Gazetteer, the preferred name is Bayern. According to the website, the source is NIMA, GEOnet Names Server. While Bavaria is acceptable in English, this is not accurate for other countries. Mom2twinzz (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:05, 12 September 2011 (UTC).

Your statement is contrary to fact. The Getty Gazeteer calls it Bavaria. I quote "Bavaria is the largest state in the nation of Germany..."

It's like the German Wikipedia calling Venice "Venedig" or Scotland "Schottland" isn't it? Bavaria is certainly its name in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.36.216.18 (talk) 06:33, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Jeez, there's nothing magical about names, they certainly can change from language to language, as German itself shows - they call Great Britain "Vereinigtes Königreich" and Milan "Mailand" and so forth. Give it a rest!Campolongo (talk) 16:26, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

"Freistaat"
"Freistaat" is "republic", not "free state". 89.71.160.145 (talk) Wojciech Żełaniec — Preceding undated comment added 09:09, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Standard German vs. High German
Taken from the article: "In Munich, the Old Bavarian dialect was spoken, but nowadays mainly High German".

But Old Bavarian is a variant of High German, is it not? I assume that what the person writing the article meant to write is "In Munich, the Old Bavarian dialect was spoken, but nowadays mainly Standard German". Standard German, of course, is a variant of High German, just as old Bavarian is a variant of High German. --Oddeivind (talk) 04:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Bavarian stamps during the German empire period
These stamps are not from the German empire period which lasts from 1871 to 1918. These stamps are issued 1920, based on the large Bavarian issue of stamps (issued after the end of the empire). But the overprint shows: These are stamps of the "Deutsches Reich" in the period of the republic of Weimar, 1920/1921. Ausone (talk) 23:45, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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Free state
I know this has been discussed in passing before here but ...

The way the term "free state" is used in the lead sentence is misleading and confusing. I realize there is some important nationalism behind this in Bavaria but, nevertheless, the article should not mislead. Bavaria does not have any particularly unique standing in Germany and calling it out as a "free state" in this context seems to imply otherwise. Certainly it is worth mentioning the terminology later in the article and the reasons behind it but the lead should not try to imply some special status. I don't think that there is anything meaningful to be gained by using this term in the lead sentence.

--MC — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.131.2.3 (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2017 (UTC)


 * I suggest changing the link from free state (which I agree is confusing/inaccurate) to Freistaat, which redirects to the relevant (i.e. the German) section of the "free state" article. I hate literal translations into English of foreign expressions which don't mean quite the same thing. Another example, among many, is château being translated as castle when the topic is a French country house. Narky Blert (talk) 21:38, 11 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Another example of where I've before now seen an inaccurate translation into English of a German word: de:Kloster to cloister. Not the same thing at all! (The fact that Kloster can mean, depending on the circumstances, any of abbey, convent, monastery, nunnery and priory (and possibly also a couple of other English words I've forgotten) doesn't exactly help, either.) Narky Blert (talk) 21:55, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

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add also small map of Europe, BAVARIA is Europe also
Error: the list of foreign born has "Greece" listed twice, with two different figures. I have checked the German version and can find no source for the original. 03:59, 6 May 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noel Ellis (talk • contribs)

English pronunciation
I notice that the pronunciation listed is /bəˈvɛəriə/. This is questionable for two reasons: Would it be unwise to edit this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnonymousMusician (talk • contribs) 06:16, 28 August 2018 (UTC)
 * 1) /ɛə/ in standard American English is equivalent to /æ/ in RP (in this case specifically /æː/ is most appropriate), and usually the two are simply unified to /æ/ because there is no ambiguity.
 * 2) An alternate pronunciation that is used, albeit to a lesser extent than /bəˈvæːriə/, is /bəˈvɑːriə/.

Physical Geography section?
Anything planned for describing the physical and natural regions of Bavaria?Landroo (talk) 12:05, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

Demonyms or not?
It looks as if there's a fight between two editors as to whether the demonyms (German: Bayer (male), Bayerin (female), Bayern and Bayerinnen (plural); English: Bavarian(s)) should be included in the infobox. I think it beneficial. Is there reason it shouldn't be there? --Naugahyde (talk) 16:23, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:20, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Karte Herzogtum Bayern im 10. Jahrhundert.png

Flag(s)
Why isn’t the other Bavarian flag in this article? 165.234.101.98 (talk) 16:38, 2 March 2023 (UTC)


 * It was removed for unknown reasons but I have added it back. Assuming someone has a problem with this feel free to give your reasoning though. Duonaut(talk &#124; contribs) 01:13, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Mann
Hmm...although Thomas Mann lived in Bavaria for much of his life, by the standards of the time, I suspect that he would not have been considered a Bavarian, being, rather, a north German from the old Hanseatic town of Lübeck. Unless anyone objects in a resonable period of time, I will remove him from the list of Bavarian authors. john 01:28, 30 June 2003 (UTC)

Alright, taking Mann out. john 20:06, 30 June 2003 (UTC)

Error
It seems like the "Miscellaneous" category is listed twice...appears to be some error. ~ Dpr 01:54, 21 April 2005 (UTC)

Physicist vs. Physician
Under Miscellaneous, Albert Einstein is listed under the profession of "physician". I am not aware of his ever having been a practicing physician, so I can only suppose that the editor of that section was confused between physcian (someone practicing clinical medicine) and physicist (someone specializing in physics). Because Albert Einstein was of the latter, it would make more sense to place him under the category of "scientists". No?

(I went ahead and corrected this.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.132.201.131 (talk) 16:17, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Formation of the German Empire
This article implies that Bavaria was forced into the German Empire in 1866. The article on Ludwig II implies that Bavaria was a charter member in Dec 1870. The article on the German Empire seems to support the Ludwig II version by talking about a North German Federation, and only later becoming the German Empire.

Who is right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbmcbeth (talk • contribs) 06:31, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


 * You may work that out for yourself :-) : The German Empire was founded in 1871, after a hiatus of more than sixty years after the dissolution of the "Holy Roman Empire" where there was no Empire at all. -- Sanctacaris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.67.240.16 (talk) 10:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Attempt for an explanation from a Bavarian: You might want to consider the situation for Bavaria after 1866. Bavaria lost the war with Austria against Prussia in 1866. In the Peace treaty there was one secret condition that Bavaria had to help Prussia when it would be attacked ("Schutz und Trutzbündnis"). Then in 1870 France declared war on Prussia and thus Bavaria had to become an ally of Prussia which ended with the complete knock out of France (for some time). After that when Bismarck wanted to form the German empire there was no power in the middle of Europe which could have helped Bavaria to fight for its freedom. Another point is that the king was more or less broke at this time because of his constructions of palaces (e.g. Neuschwanstein). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.120.253.181 (talk) 17:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Two map optional display
Hello Bavaria!!! I have something that may interest contributers for this page. In a nut shell, it allows the option to display two maps in your info box, one could be a close up of Bavaria, and another would be Bavaria in a wider European or EU, or German context. This is an example that was being discussed on Scotland's talk page (though I think they have rejected a two map option). Prior to now no one knew that you could have two maps displayed in the info box. For 'smallish' counties the benifits are easy to graps, an up-close view of the country, and a wider contextual visualisation of the country. Dydd da!!

PS: This is an example from the Scotland page, please do not be offended that I display the Scotland info box here. It is only ment as an example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drachenfyre (talk • contribs) 18:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)