Talk:Bavarian Soviet Republic

Removed Rosa Luxemburg
She was listed as one of the leaders of the government but that's quite impossible since she was executed by firing squad in Jan 1919. Please dont add her back. TY — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.122.163.252 (talk) 03:25, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

"On Sunday, 12 April 1919, the Communist Party seized power"
This sentence is vague to me as a naive reader. Did the Communist Party have an electoral victory, or was there a forceful coup? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.13.130.154 (talk) 09:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Map error(s)
I would entirely remove the map from the article as it not only appears to be a poorly adapted version of a larger map of Germany (e.g. names of French cities (Colmar, Strasbourg) visibly cut off, very crude borders of the grey shade etc.) but in addition to that depicts the Bavarian border after the 1920 accession of the Coburg area following a referendum. Since the general information provided by the map imo isn't all that crucial to the article in the first place, I don't see the harm in simply taking it out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.21.62.21 (talk) 16:24, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Untitled
I took the initiative to move this article from Munich Soviet Republic because most English language academic sources refer to it as Bavarian Soviet Republic. I intend to spend a lot of time improving this article, and look forward to any one else who may want to contribute. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 05:24, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Categories
If the article is in "History of Bavaria" category (which is a subcategory of "German history" and "Germany") there's no need to put it in "Germany" and "German history" categories as well. This is the category policy of Wikipedia.

That is because otherwise would make hard to browse the main categories, as for example "Germany", because there would be too many topics on them. The same way, we put a German musician under the "German musicians" category and not in the category "People". Bogdan | Talk 17:50, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Fuck policy. Some of Wikipedia's conventions are convulted, self-contradictory and downright stupid.  &mdash;ExplorerCDT 18:07, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)
 * that's right, man! the more categories the better, keep up the fight against wikipedia paper-shufflers (they already dominate in the German Wiki). --85.178.100.7 20:22, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Category
Bavaria is a part of germany,and putting history of Bavaria separate is like putting Hurricane Katrina to Texas/Lousiana History.Its should be included,and size of category isn't a valid argument. "Harder to browse" would be hard to navigate many topics far exceeding germany categories. And for the record grouping people by nationality isn't a really good idea in perspective(emigrants,travellers,national minorities,etc) and better adressed by grouping in terms of subject area(i.e. Profession,Religion,Occupation) internationally. ex:German scientists vs scientists by field(Chemists,physicists,Biologists)

Thurn und Taxis
The article says that a prince of the House of Thurn and Taxis was executed for spying by the revolutionaries, but I haven't found any further information about this individual on the web. The German article does not mention anyone from the house, and the Thurn und Taxis article does not have any princes dying in 1919. Is there a source for this inclusion in the article? Olessi 22:37, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

 Aufgabe 10 Was wird den roten Exekutionskommandos in München allerdings zum Verhängnis? Wo gehen sie zu weit?

Lösungshinweis: Nach der Erschießung des Grafen Thurn und Taxis und der Gräfin Westphal schlägt die Stimmung unter der Bevölkerung endgültig um. Die Bürger haben genug; in München stationierte Soldaten wenden sich nun gegen die Räte-Anhänger.

This infobite seems to be an angle to pursue. Agathoclea 08:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)


 * This lead me to the following radioprogramme transcript descibing the events: Agathoclea 08:32, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Events are also alluded here: Thule_society. Agathoclea 08:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the links. Looks like the executed are Gustav von Thurn und Taxis and Heila von Westarp. Olessi 15:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Name change
Per Naming Conventions (common names), I reverted this page back to Bavarian Soviet Republic from its 3 month captivity at Munich Soviet Republic. Why? Because BSR is the common name in English especially given its academic usage compared to MSR. If the Germans refer to it differently, let them do so on the German Wikipedia. &mdash;ExplorerCDT 03:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It is to me (as Norwegian) very strange to translate the German concept Räterepublik into Soviet Republic. 'Soviet' is the Russian word for 'Council' or 'Advisory board'. The Germans were inspired by the Russian uprising, but was independent from the Bolsheviks. To term the Bavarian Councils Republic for Bavarian Soviet Republic may be the norm of U.S. historians, but according to neutral point of view, it is not. --Xact (talk) 10:03, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * maybe I am biased as a native speaking German, but the the Name "soviet" strikes me as odd. "people's republic" would be more fitting. Never have I heard of the name soviet used by German speakers other than in context of Russian speaking countries. Does anyone say soviet republic of china? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.145.254.152 (talk) 13:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Rat (plural Räte) = soviet = council hence Räterepublik = Soviet Republic (concil republic is not a very common term isn't it), Volksrepublik = people's republic, but it was not the Volksrepublik Bayern it was the Räterepublik Bayern, the term people's republic would also be problemetic since the states of Hessen and Württemberg calld themselves people's republic in the Weimar era - so the term people's republic (Volksrepublik) was used in German history but in an other context 178.210.114.106 (talk) 21:01, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * and it seems like in the english language soviet republic is the standart term for Räterepublik even in a non-USSR context, see Soviet republic (system of government) 178.210.114.106 (talk) 21:06, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I know this hasn't been changed for many years, but as a native English speaker from England, not America or elsewhere I find the title confusing and problematic. I spend a lot of time in Munich and also speak German. When I came across this article I assumed from the title that it was something I had not heard before and there must have somehow been Russian interference for there to be a 'Soviet' government, which I had never heard of. In British English we do not talk about the Chinese Soviet, Vietnamese Soviet, North Korean Soviet etc. On reading the article it became obvious the article is about the 'Bayerische Räterepublic' - English direct translation 'Bavarian councils republic', which I already knew about. I came to the talk page because I correctly assumed that the topic name must have been discussed and I find no compelling reason that the Russian word should be used or that workers' council should be implied. Wiki attempts to be accurate and does not necessarily follow convention if accuracy is lost. If I search Google I find plenty of hits for Bavarian council republic or similar. The German term Räte (councils) is the plural of Rat which simply means council and does not imply workers council / soviet. Rat is used in many contexts in German, from workers' council (Betriebsrat) right up to the European council (Europäischer Rat) and would never imply the meaning workers' council on its own. To me the title is VERY confusing as a native British English speaker. I would suggest it should be re-titled the Bavarian Council republic to be a more accurate translation of the German. Alternatively an additional explanation in the first sentence might suffice, e.g. The Bavarian or Munich Soviet Republic, literally translated from German as the Bavarian or Munich council republic (German: Räterepublik Baiern, Münchner Räterepublik)... etc. Lkingscott (talk) 08:25, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute
This article seems to violate the Neutral Point of View. Why, for instance, does it make a specific point of naming several of the "counter-revolutionaries" executed by the Rote Armee, but only mentions Leviné when discussing the state's reaction? Also, why does it only mention actions taken by the Communists against the state, but not actions taken by the state (prior to, during, and after the November Revolution) against Communists and workers? This article fails to even account for the causes of the Revolution, except as an indirect result of the October Revolution in Russia.Alexandergreenb (talk) 03:24, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The article says (with no sources) that the Freikorps killed 700 people after destroying the Bavarian Soviet Republic. Is that not a good enough reaction for you? The article states that the communist revolution in Hungary emboldened the revolutionaries. A failure to fully account for the causes of the state's formation doesn't mean that the article is biased, just bad. MustaphaMond (talk) 00:58, 23 April 2010 (UTC)


 * From a Nordic, and say European perspective, this article is very biased. The revolutionaries of Hungary and Russia for that matter, did as much look to Germany, France and England for that matter, as the other way around. The Bolsheviks of Russia did choose a path that for huge parts of the International revolutionary movement was seen with critical eyes. State communism, the Bolshevik (Leninist) way has never represented the majority among Euro-communists. But they gained momentum and the whole of the peoples movement were emboldened as you say (MustaphaMond). --Xact (talk) 10:21, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Russian support
The article claims that Russian soldiers were sent to execute hostages; considering that Russia was in the midst of a civil war and separated both by multiple enemies and enormous distances from Bavaria, this seems extremely unlikely. The source that supports this does not seem to be of a high quality, especially for such extraordinary claim. Therefore I'm removing it from the article until a better source is found. Kostja (talk) 16:42, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Demise Section
This part of the article is very poorly written and reads like biased analysis. In particular this phrase, 'the majority of German Jews were patriotic Germans who did great service for Germany'.

"The tragic and unfortunate events related to establishment of the Bavarian Soviet Republic was that the Nazi propagandists used the action of a small group of Jewish activists to attack the entire German Jewish community. The fact was that the majority of German Jews were patriotic Germans who did great service for Germany but the Nazis exploited the actions of the Spartacus League to claim that this was a anti-German "Jewish conspiracy" and used this to create anti-Jewish hatred and the tragic events of the Holocaust." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jack Paris Cernunnos (talk • contribs) 11:37, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I tried to wikify this and added a fact tag. Ghostofnemo (talk) 01:11, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to delete this article
A Bavarian Soviet Republic has never existed. I propose to delete this article. Here are my arguments:


 * The first 'Ministerpräsident' (chef of the gouvernment, Minister-President) was Kurt Eisner, who distanced himself from the Russian Bolsheviks.
 * A 'Soviet' in Russia is not comparable to a worker's council in Munich in 1919. In fact the word 'soviet' means a board of soldiers and workers as in the model that Lenin and Stalin had installed in USSR.
 * On 13th of April 1919, Eugen Leviné, who was member of the KPD and was born in Russia, installed an Institution called 'action board'. The action board had been defeated by 'freikorps' after 15 days (on 27th of April 1919). This short period is not typical for the whole period of the 'Münchner Räterepublik', that lasted 5 mounths.
 * There was an government in exile in Bamberg (under Hoffmann) during the time of the action board of Eugen Leviné in Munich. Therefore it is not clear, which government is legal and which not.
 * Leviné asked Lenin for Help but Russia did not help. That shows that there is no strong relation to Russia.
 * After WW I in other parts of Germany old monarchies were finished and some people tried to take over power. For example Karl Liebknecht tried to found a free socialistic republic in Berlin two hours after Philip Scheidemann had anounced the Weimarer Republik. So there is no historical item, called Berlin Soviet Republic or German Soviet Republic. Therefore it is not logical that Bavaria should be called a Soviet Republic.
 * I am from Munich. My great Grandma, who lived near the Theresienwiese, where Eisner started the Bavarian revolution, never told my grand mother (who is still alive, she was her mother in law) of a red Bavarian flag or about a Bavarian Soviet Republic.
 * Bavaria never stod unter such strong idiological or military influence of the russian kommunist party as a Soviet Republics did.
 * Bavaria was never a part of the Soviet Union. If somebody had asked Lenin, if Bavaria was part of the Soviet Union, he would have denied that.
 * Even the Eastern part of germany, the German Democratic Republic, was not a German Soviet Republic after WW II, despite beeing a 100% satelite state of the Soviet Union.

These arguments prove that Bavaria was not an Soviet Republic at any time. I propose that this short period may be called "Period of experimental socialism in Munich". I propose to delete this article and transfer its contents to an article with a better name.

--Mnntoino (talk) 19:56, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Is there an article or section of an article about this on German Wikipedia? If so, what is the title? I see one reference (Gaab) that refers to the "Free State of Bavaria" before the Leninist coup and "Bavarian Soviet Republic" after the coup. How about renaming the article "Bavarian Socialist Republic" as it is referred to here in the article on Bavaria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria#20th_century ? Ghostofnemo (talk) 02:38, 19 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It looks like the German Wikipedia article is called Münchner Räterepublik https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BCnchner_R%C3%A4terepublik which translates as "Munich Soviet Republic". Ghostofnemo (talk) 02:43, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Alternative names
Is Volkstaat Bayern, another common name from the period, a reference to this particular polity? —Brigade Piron (talk) 21:40, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * no. volksstaat was just a term for republic 13:41, 4 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.56.180.48 (talk)

"Team of Jewish Revolutionaries"
There is absolutely no call for this to be in the opening sentence of this page. The implication of this phrasing suggests that the leadership was organised on the basis of their Judaism and not simply the result of the socialists involved in the several varied leaderships of the short lived republic happening to be ethnically Jewish. It's only relevance to the page is in how critics and propagandists would paint the republic afterwards and this is already addressed in the article.

The citation given to back up the claim of a team of Jewish revolutionaries uses the word "Jewish" twice in relation to the republic. Once while describing Eisner and again when describing the perceptions of critics of the republic. A single ethnically Jewish leader does not constitute a "Team of Jewish Revolutionaries" and the other reference to the top leadership being Russian or Jewish does not add any more to what we already know that the top figure in each leadership was an ethnic Jew.

There was no single leadership of this republic as is quite clear from the article itself. There was an Eisner leadership, a Hoffmann leadership, a Toller leadership, a Leviné leadership. While three out of those four leaders were Jewish that only backs a claim that three out of four attempted leaders of the republic were Jews. It does not back a claim that it was an attempt at a socialist republic "led mainly by a team of Jewish revolutionaries". That would suggest a single coherent team of exclusively Jewish revolutionaries led the republic through the course of its short existence which simply isn't true and quite honestly sounds more like NSDAP propaganda from the time than a wikipedia article. The fact that the author of this edit also contributes to the page for Nazism does raise suspicions about the motives of their edit.

If the user wants to elaborate in the article on the over representation of ethnically Jewish socialists in the various governments and the effects that had then they can do so elsewhere in the article with appropriate sources. But it has no place in the opening sentence any more than than the Irish-American origin of the President of the short-lived Irish Republic has in its opening sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnSionnachín (talk • contribs) 15:56, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree with the above arguments. I'd like to remove "Jewish" to read "a team of revolutionaries." Objections? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:01, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Against. It is of neutral and distinct interest, meeting WP:N, that this German revolution within a German state was NOT led by people from the majority population. If you find any personal problem with this, or find it offensive, that is your own prerogative and independent of the nature of the Project. Furthermore, the unsigned first comment ends with an apples-to-oranges fallacy in that the "short-lived Irish Republic"'s leader was still distinctly Irish. It seems to me that articles of this type seem to lack WP:AGF and WP:NPOV on all fronts by certain users.--  Sıgehelmus   (Talk) &#124;д=)  23:47, 28 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I see your point. However, when used as "team of Jewish revolutionaries" it implies a country of origin, and there was no Jewish state at that time. How about "a team of German and Russian revolutionaries, mostly of Jewish descent." I see that Levine was from Russia, I assume some were from Germany, but please correct me if I'm wrong. BTW, that opening sentence did strike me as odd, even before I read the above comment on Talk. Thoughts? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:15, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If you want to clarify it like that, please go ahead, but the distinction is still notable and needs to be made and is worth being in the lead. Thank you for your civility!--  Sıgehelmus   (Talk) &#124;д=)  00:49, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I will modify as "... led by a team of German and Russian revolutionaries, mostly of Jewish descent." K.e.coffman (talk) 01:01, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * OK.--  Sıgehelmus   (Talk) &#124;д=)  01:23, 29 November 2015 (UTC)
 * This is an antisemitic innuendo, and against WP:WEIGHT. --Galassi (talk) 23:57, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Since my attempted change, I've seen at least two other people try to remove "Jewish" from the lead. So it looks like the current consensus is for the removal. In addition, Levine grew up and was educated in Germany, so he's as much a German as he's a Russian national, and not an 'outsider.' K.e.coffman (talk) 01:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * K.E., You misunderstand. Galassi has been stalking this page for months and has reverted without reason countless times, only providing brief, irrelevant, subjective, and POV reasoning after being called out. I gave him a warning and he merely ignored it and deleted it., if you do not provide objective evidence for your claims of sound neutrality, and continue to senseless revert what YOU are offended at, I will take this to an administrator. This is your last and final warning.--  Sıgehelmus   (Talk) &#124;д=)  03:22, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Agree that this should not be in the lede.User:Volunteer Marek 05:20, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The information still overwhelmingly meets notability requirements and is interesting and relevant. If not the direct lead, it deserves a place. Any perceived controversiallconnotations by a singular user is not a nanny invite.--  Sıgehelmus    (Talk) &#124;д=)  07:15, 13 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's either notable, or interesting, or relevant. Does the ethnic background of the revolutionaries get extensive coverage in reliable sources? Not that I know of.User:Volunteer Marek 08:08, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

Franz Lipp
Surely this guy |# deserves a Wikipedia article of his own ? He has one in the French language Wikipedia |# but not the English. He even appears to have a street named after him in Eggenfelden, Southeastern Bavaria. 90.202.231.149 (talk) 21:47, 11 December 2015 (UTC)


 * As they say in this case, you are welcome to create one :-) K.e.coffman (talk) 01:06, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

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Hitler's participation Fringe Theory Warning
There should be a discussion related to fringe theory warning applied to this section KhoikhoiPossum (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

There has been a lot of argument (or contradiction) about the following paragraph:

"Adolf Hitler himself acted as a liaison between his army battalion – he had been elected "deputy battalion representative" – and the Soviet's Department of Propaganda. Both film footage and a still photograph appear to show Hitler marching in Eisner's funeral procession.  He wears both a black mourning band and a red band showing support for the Far-Left Government.  It is uncertain whether this indicated that Hitler was a true supporter of the soviet, or that he was simply taking an available opportunity not to return to his impoverished pre-war civilian life. His choice may therefore have been a tactical one, rather than one of political belief. It is also known that once the government had fallen, Hitler aligned himself with the Weimar Republic and – as part of a three-person committee assigned to investigate the behavior of his regiment's soldiers – informed on those who had shown sympathy for the Far-Left Governments. "

I don't know anything about the reliability or respectability of the source cited. Can anybody help us? The editor who removes the paragraph says loudly,"Hitler was not a socialist." I agree but the party he led later on was called the National Socialist Party. It seems he wanted to attract socialists to his cause. The paragraph would tie in with this.but is it true.Spinney Hill (talk) 07:28, 22 May 2022 (UTC) .Spinisney Hill (talk) 07:30, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

The source cited is wrong. This is because Hitler was a FASCIST member of the FASCIST Nazi party and he WAS NOT a socialist. This myth persists because it benefits Republicans, Trump supporters and other fascists to discredit socialism by falsely associating Hitler with it. This is extremely dangerous and puts BIPOC people such as myself in even further danger from Fascists. The above paragraph must be removed and stay removed as it only contributes to this myth. Lending legitimacy to the idea Hitler was a socialist is no different to lending legitimacy to other fringe right wing beliefs like pizzagate and that Trump 'won' (HE DID NOT) the 2020 election.

The paragraph immediately above was not written by me so I have put my signature where it belongs. The editor above has not signed his contribution. He appears to be saying not that the source quoted is factually incorrect but morally wrong even if it is correct to use it. Please do not shout by using capitals. I am afraid I do not know what BIPOC means so I cannot comment on that. However this article is about an event which took place in Germany in the period immediately after the First World war. It certainly has an impact on German politics in the 1920s and 1930s but it is not about US politics in the 2020s. I take it the editor refers to the US Republican Party when he talks about "Republicans. " In Germany in 1919 republican meant not royal or imperialist. Spinney Hill (talk) 11:40, 23 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I've validated the information, and it does appear that there is documented evidence of Hitler being part of the Bavarian Soviet Republic military before the formation of the Nazi party in Germany. There isn't any statement in the paragraph claiming that Hitler was a socialist, and it is presented in a neutral point of view, even stating that he may have been involved for other reasons. It seems the other contributor's concerns are directly related political reasons rather than the validity of the information. NilokHedge (talk) 17:18, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

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Changes to article
I've made two substantial changes to this article. The first is that I've removed as much of the contributions of the editor HenryGarden1000 as I could, since their edits are suspect - one particular one I removed the source did not support the claim made. Secondly, I've removed the material based on the writing of a single historian, Thomas Weber, which appears to me to be promoting WP:FRINGE theories which are not accepted by the community of historians.

I suggest that those who have a good amount of knowledge about this subject matter take a very close look at the article and continue to chip away at material which is not well-sourced, is fringy, or outright incorrect.

I'll post this on WikiProject Germany as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:14, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Unrecognizable flag
So this country has an unrecognizable flag right? MakesTheWikiBetter (talk) 23:01, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Unrecognizable? It's a Red flag (politics). - BilCat (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand the comment either., what do you see above the word "Flag" in the infobox? Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:06, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

La Terreur en Bavière
Many of the anecdotes in here, while seemingly coming from different sources, trace back to one book called "La Terreur en Bavière", published in 1922 without sources. It seems the majority of the extraordinary anecdotes come from this book (although it is very hard to tell as I cannot read French). It doesn't seem like this is a good source but I do not know enough about academic standard's in genral, and wikipedia's standards in particular to really dispute this. I would however suggest someone look into La Terreur en Bavière by Ambroise Got to see how legitimate of a source it is

German cross-examination needed
This article seems to be heavily relying on extremely shoddy English language scholarship derived from people with obvious bias (such as uncritically and directly citing Noske) to make wildly exagerated claims (which has been widely disseminated online). While I don't speak German, a brief view of the German page translated by Google does not reproduce annecdotes like attempting to abolish the study of history. S0V3R31GNN0RT0N (talk) 13:08, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Vague anti-semitism in the "Ernst Toller government" section
The section about the government appointments under the Ernst Toller government after a statetment saying that

"Toller's government members were not always well-chosen."

contains the passage

"(...) and – in Catholic Bavaria, where nuns ran the schools – a Jew as minister for education."

I fail to see any connection between the minister being Jewish and their unability to run/reform a Catholic run education system other than an anti-semitic bias in the article. Kubaxent (talk) 17:39, 16 May 2024 (UTC)


 * "Toller's government members were not always well-chosen." is the topic sentence of the second paragraph. "...and – in Catholic Bavaria, where nuns ran the schools – a Jew as minister for education." is a part of the topic sentence of the third paragraph, which begins "Other Toller appointments included:..."
 * The emphasis is clearly on the fact that a Jew was chosen as the education minister despite Bavaria being majority Catholic and nuns running the state's schools. Ironically, an achievement for the Jewish people is being highlighted by the sentence you are misunderstanding as antisemitism, because you do not understand basic writing structure. Yue 🌙 03:29, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
 * By this logic I'm sure that saying "a burglar with a conviction for moral turpitude as police president of Munich" in the same paragraph is actually passing positive judgement on burglar and highlights their achievments in being able to run a police force. Kubaxent (talk) 08:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)