Talk:Bavarians

Germans
This edit removed the explicit statement that they are Germans. Aside from any distinctions at the margins, Bavarians are German by both ethnicity and citizenship, regardless of any local wishes for autonomy and stress on cultural distinction. That information is useful to those with only a broad grasp of European politics, history and geography and including it is not insensitive to Bavarians, even Bavarian nationalists (to the extent that they exist). If the only information included is that Bavaria is in modern Germany, it suggests that they are some kind of historic ethnic minority within Germany. That is not the mainstream view, even if the one book you're using a source for this page – written by an "freelance writer and independent researcher" – hints at it. Also, the use of the FRG styling for Germany has a purpose, ie to mark the distinction between the modern political unit and its constituent states, as set against the wider cultural concept of "Germany" and its constituent historic regions, eg Bavaria. The same points apply to changes to the Swabians page.  N-HH   talk / edits  17:53, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Ethnically, they are as German as Austrians. :-) -- Orthographicus (talk) 19:05, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Historic Bavarians and citizens of today
This article hardly presents the difference for two pretty different concepts, that have the same name: Bavarians.

1.) There is the concept of the state of bavaria(including Altbayern('Old Bavaria'), Franconia and Bavarian Swabia), which people are obviously nowadays called 'Bavarians'.

2.) Secondly there is the historical Conception of the peoples of Bavaria, which are unfortunately called bavarians(german:Bajuwaren) in english as well and which should be in my opinion the main focus,like it is done in the german corresponding article.

Given this Bavarians would not be(or at least not exclusively) a ethnographic group of Germans like stated here, but a group of germanic people. (Although this group doesnt include Francs and swabians, but Austrians and south tyrolians the people of Altbayern).

I would like to propose the following changes: - Rename the article 'People of Bavaria', while moving the parts that only concern the historical conceptions. - Write a new article 'Bavarians', roughly corresponding to the german article 'Bajuwaren' which is directed from here and the parts that are Moved out of the old one.

Alternatively the new article can be named like latin Option 'Bavarii', which then would be tue new corresponding one to German article 'Bajuwaren and this article would have the same name but would be changed similiarly.

I may Start Changing it like said, if no counters will be seen, using the first possibility — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.119.130.64 (talk) 14:11, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

ethnographic
What is meant by this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by HeteroGuy (talk • contribs) 19:40, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

concepts and homonymy
the afore-mentioned issue that there are two different concepts of Bavarian people should be adressed, there is the Bavarian Kingdom with its sucessor states and citizens on one side and the ethno-linguistic group on the other... Bavarians as the people of the Bavarian Nation from early 19th c. are not identical to the Old Bavarians (Altbayern), who form only part of it, nor to the ethno-linguistic group of Bavarian speakers in Bavaria, since the inner-Bavarian political borders were not drawn on linguistic grounds... the linguistic group has neither "state" nor "citizenship" in contrast to the Bavarian State citizens, of whom the bavarian speakers are probably less than 50%...

as to the discussion that Bavarians, Austrians etc. are ethnically Germans; the concept of German unity and language nationalism is the secondary concept not the concept of the pre-nationalist states and kingdoms, cf. in the German Wikipedia "before the end of 18th century there was no sizeable German national awareness"... Schmeller even mentions something similar for Bavaria in the 19th century stating "for our ordinary folks it's still only the language what accounts for a German", cf. Johann Andreas Schmeller: Bayerisches Wörterbuch, I 1872, S. 406 (555). ...

--Aferghes (talk) 23:36, 10 June 2021 (UTC)