Talk:Bay (horse)

Article upgrade
Absolutely.. I'm sorry! Could we potentially set up a standard format for color articles? I may not get back to this until tomorrow, but let's discuss the various merits of either version. Just as you have your reasons, I have mine. Countercanter (talk) 12:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Replies to the Invisible-Bay comments:

I really staunchly believe that this photo is important to the article. That and the photo of the bay foal. The photo of the Arabian in the halter stance was a classic wild bay.

I'll try to play with the black skin/dark eyes thing...I keep seeing those photos of that Ardennes foal with the bottom-heavy blaze and bright blue eyes and thinking "Splash!" Speaking of which, white markings are so next on my list. The whole "Dominant white" thing is made so unnecessarily confusing.

I kept thinking there had to be a better way to discuss brown. I understand your conundrum, though; the real explanation of brown is in the genetics part which is totally inaccessible to anybody who might be confusing seal brown with liver chestnut (I live in CT so all the Morgans are a great study in darkening/sooty factors). Perhaps I can try to paste together several images showing the lower legs of a bay, wild bay, liver chestnut and chestnut to use for the article? I'm not 100% satisfied with the treatment of brown in the article right now, but I know we'll work it out. Perhaps mention early-on that to lay people most horses look brown, so the term can be misleading?

Is the "Effect of champagne gene" section necessary? I agree that "Colors that are not bay" is a good section...maybe Colors confused with bay?

I'm concerned with writing "black gene" anywhere now since it can be so confusing...Eumelanin-black-gene or Non-agouti-black gene? Unless you meant to refer to the dependency of agouti's action on the presence of eumelanin?

Chart was a mess. They have little calculators for all that "OooOOo what color could my baby beee?!" nonsense now.

I think that, like brown, it's useful to describe the physical appearance of "wild bay" in the more accessible section, and elaborate on the genetics behind it later on. Pangare doesn't cause wild bay...it just happens to show up with it a lot.

French study: Do you recall us talking about how the DNA test identifies/identified only the recessive a allele? I cannot for the LIFE of me get access to the darn article proper - but I will! - to know for sure, so I was hesitant to claim that the seal brown horses had the A genotype. If seal brown were caused by black + pangare, the horses would have to be genetically black: E_ aa. But they weren't. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Countercanter (talk • contribs) 13:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


 * My thinking is that we have two tracks here: The basics, stuff that a sharp 12-year old can understand, or at least the ordinary horse owner, and then the best available info on genetics, which sometimes even I have trouble following (and I have 10 years of higher education, though not in the sciences!).  So maybe in structuring the articles, we start with the simple stuff and grow more complicated as we go down the page.  The color articles are all over the place, most were started by other people and I just dove in at some point and sort of tried to clean up each from where it was at, so indeed, I think some kind of standard template might be a good idea, though it will be tricky for things like the Pinto family, where there are seven articles on the different variations.   Maybe we can take the conversation to Talk:Equine coat color and come up with something there.  That article is sort of intended (by me, anyway) to be a "portal" or really basic overview of all the colors and a gateway into each of the specific articles.


 * I'm confused about the photo thing: There were NO photos in the article as it appeared last night, now that I see the diffs, they DO appear...but last night, they weren't visible to me, looked like there were NO photos at all?  Maybe they weren't formatted to show up?  Boy, I'm sorry, that was  weirdness...I relly did think you'd blanked all the photos.  Wiki-gremlins, maybe??  Here's the thing to do:  I'll make a gallery on THIS page and we can throw in the various  possible photos, maybe with captions, and sort it out from there.


 * I only added the champagne thing because there was also the gray thing. I don't really know if we need either one, but you had added that bit on gray at one point, I thought the concept of how coat colors change worth mentioning, but if you want to toss one or both sections, no problem as far as I am concerned.


 * Next problem IS going to be sourcing/footnoting. If we are going to do major rewrites, we are going to need more sources for the basics.  I can do some work on the general overview sources, but everything about color has just been turned upside down in the last 10 years, and so finding accurate material is going to be, well, kind of interesting.  That big article at UC Davis that reviews all the colors is a good overview source, but they also just rearranged their web site and half the old links are dead, I spent a couple hours fixing that about a month ago, but I missed some... sigh (whine, whimper, snivel...)


 * The genetics stuff may involve a total rewrite of equine coat color genetics. The chart format works, and it makes sense to read, but I have heard a number of people say there are content flaws...oh, yet another headache...


 * As far as "black gene," I guess here is where my confusion lies: My layperson's oversimplified understanding of color genetics (based in part on mainstream magazine articles on the topic) is that all colors start as either "red" (e allele) or  "black" (E allele, or "extension" gene).  Everything else, including bay, sooty, "non-fading" black, palomino, pino, etc...are modifiers of the basic red (chestnut) or black alleles.  (look at that article from The Horse that I referenced in that paragraph on champagne...)  My understanding is that Agouti has nothing to do with making a black horse black, it just suppressed black to the points.   Are you saying that there are two "black" genes, or...?


 * My point is only that we have to figure out a way to explain how bay happens that is simple and easy to understand, explaining all the nitty-gritty too, but later on...?


 * "Wild Bay" has me totally confused. I've never heard a good explanation of what it is, why it's different from normal bay, and most of the time what I think some people are calling "wild bay" is what others describe as  a minimal rabicano (light hairs on the legs, "skunk" tail??) ...???

Oh, and by the way, totally unrelated, I have a suspicion that that "sooty buckskin" photo you added to the Buckskin page might actually be a dun. The photo says it's a Connemara, and I don't think that breed carries the cream dilution, but I know that they DO carry dun. The animal also appears to have a dorsal stripe. Of course, absent DNA, who knows? I will, when I get around to it, check the Connemara registry on the dilution gene issue. (Don't get me started on the number of gray horse photos uploaded to commons that are called "white" horses!) =:-O   Montanabw (talk) 08:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

But if you REALLY want to have fun, go over to Fjord horse, I had a long discussion on wiki a number of months ago with a Fjord person who helped get the article correct on how the breeders classify their color scheme. All their coat colors are variation on dun to me, but no - there are multiple variants, including a cream-on-dun version, and then what causes the white stripe in the middle of their manes is a total mystery. There is so much going on there genetically, and it's such a closed population and a very "pure" breed, so I'm surprised someone hasn't studied them more. But I digress. Now, back to bays and the gallery. Montanabw (talk) 08:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Absorbing the rest but I have one comment. The color in the Connemaras is creme, not dun. It is called dun by convention. It's hard to see whether he has any dun traits because he's so sooty, but his light eyes are a clue. Here are some photos from the French National Connemara show (used only because the pictures are beautiful and convenient):

Enjoy. poneydesport.com does online media coverage of pony events in France. Countercanter (talk) 12:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Palomino mare. I'm not sure if she's greying or not. Rebel Wind D'Isabel by Vizir du Ruere
 * Buckskin baby, going grey I believe. Silencer des Touches by Quarteron Agile
 * VERY sooty buckskin. I see the shoulder/neck cape but he isn't dun. Same situation as the gelding in the photo. Paola
 * Less sooty example. Play Boy Du Blin
 * Better yet; this mare is just rained on. Orlane de L'Etang

Hm, American Connemara society says: "Connemaras in North America range from 13 to over 15 hands. Their colors are gray, bay, brown, and dun, with some roans, an occasional black, chestnut, or palomino." British sociey says: "Grey, bay, black, brown, dun, with occasional roan, chestnut, palomino and dark-eyed cream." Of course, genetically, "dark-eyed cream" IS just a light palomino. If they recognize palomino, then you're right, the DO have the cream gene, and thus would also have buckskins.

But I still disagree on some of those photos being buckskins, as most duns are on the "sooty" side, but, just as you live in Morgan-land, I live in Quarter Horse land, where duns are everywhere, and a big deal, but also cremellos and buckskins, so people spend half their lives figuring this stuff out. Absent DNA testing, I suppose there is room for debate.

If you have a source that Connemaras, like Arabians, don't carry dun at all, I am willing to reconsider...??

As for the lighter eyes thing, I really can't say that I notice this on the live cream dilutes I have seen, but I will maybe look at them more closely one of these days...

2) Yeah, hard to say what that is, does look like it's a palomino going gray, whatever else is going on; bad light. 3)  I really think that's a dun, or, maybe a "dunskin"-- carries both dilutions -- the primitive markings are nothing to sneeze at, and the transverse stripe at the shoulder is rarely seen, even on duns, so that is quite convincing. In AQHA land, the primitive markings are precisely what is used to distinguish between buckskin and dun. 4) I personally "knew" a quarter horse exactly that color (dappled and sooty) registered as a "grullo" (which encompasses not only blue duns, but also just that smoky gold shade too...though I do admit there is the "we aren't sure what the hell it is, so call it a grullo" standard!) But I would definitely not call that a buckskin... 5)  Coat on that one does show cream dilution features, I agree, but could still also carry dun. 6) OK, that one looks like a buckskin to me, too.  I'll agree there.

Compare to Quarter horses identified as dun: http://grullaqh.homestead.com/OURMARES.html (note especially the second horse) And these: http://www.duncentralstation.com/  I couldn't find an example of the dappled grullo, but you see that shade sometimes in the Fjords, too....

And for contrast, here are examples from ranches that specialize in Buckskin and Palomino crossbred Arabs. I note these because Arabians never carry the dun gene, and to get the guaranteed palominos or buckskins they advertise, they usually breed purebred Arab mares to cremello studs of other breeds (or vice-versa): http://calientecreekranch.com/ (No light eyes there, other than the one that is also Pinto...) and http://www.summerwindfarm.com/ (the cremello QH stud is, obviously, cremello and has blue eyes, everyone else is dark-eyed unless some other factor is added...)  and http://tiffanyranch.com/sales.html  (IMHO, these folks sort of push the definition of "Palomino" with some of their flaxen chestnuts that aren't genetic dilutes... but I digress...) I guess my only real point is that the "sooty" thing is not really very well understood at all, and I hesitate to say much about it, absent more research. Just yakking... Montanabw (talk) 23:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Does it help that the study subjects in the study that mapped creme to MATP were Connemaras? Countercanter (talk) 04:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Remind me what MATP is - the DNA segment where cream is located? I am letting go of my argument over cream/creme issue, you are right on that.  (But UC Davis DOES say "cream dilution", not "creme": http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/coatcolorhorse.php)   I'm still arguing about "sooty", though.  I still maintain that half those horses are duns and not "sooty" buckskins.

Also, back to bay, Oh, and now that I see what you did with the new photos, I'm putting most of them back in. Sorry that I thought you threw out all the photos (I still don't know why they didn't appear when I checked the diffs, but swear to god, there were NO photos in the article...wiki-gremlins? Post-traumatic wikistress from my last edit war?  Dunno.  You actually were on the right track; except that I just cannot stand all the show grease on the bay yearling's face - It's just so not a good example of show grooming.  And I don't get the "wild bay" thing either, seems a theory without a lot of support? (just asking?)  Montanabw (talk) 07:44, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Flipping the speculation switch...
As I said, the Connemara people (Brits in general) notoriously call buckskin "dun". I'm not saying there aren't any duns. I'm just saying that buckskin OR dun, they call it the same thing. Kinda like the Fjord people. I first noticed lighter eyes in a buckskin at my barn. Have a look. I agree that the phenotypes cross over and without having a better look at the horses in person, or a better authority, you and I won't know. So I suppose we can just let it go at that. I'm willing to stake a lot on the horse in the sooty article being buckskin; I will continue to look for a less contentious photograph but he does illustrate sooty beautifully. He has only countershading, not a distinct dorsal stripe. I'm also browsing for a photo that shows a sooty dun's dorsal stripe to see if perhaps one might be able to see a dorsal stripe WITHIN a sooty area, or not. Speaking of dun, I just saw that Nancy Castle wrote an article with a SUPER cool theory:

Don't even get me started on whoever is responsible for that purebred stallion being marketed as "palomino".

Yes, MATP is where creme was mapped to.

I'm not surprised; I put the photos in about an hour after my original edit, so I'm not that offended by what may have just been server lag or need to refresh.

As to wild bay...here is a link to an accessible part of Sponenberg's book where he discusses it. Hope it works!  Agreed that photo is unattractive, but it does illustrate the color. Try a google image search.

I did some research into mutations on the mouse agouti gene. Agouti is HIGHLY conserved, by the bye. It seems that there are over 25 identified separate mutations on their agouti gene, each changing the way agouti works or is expressed. (Speculation-switch On!) One of the funny things about it seems to be that it "knows" where it is in the body. That's related to regulation of the gene in the embryo. It orients from the top-down, because mice (and other animals) are usually dark above and light on the underside. Mutations in agouti in mice can change where the body decides "underside" begins. In the black-and-tan mice, the identity of "underside" is restricted to the armpits, groin, and muzzle. The way I understand it, the theories about agouti in horses are based on this behavior. "Normally", agouti switches off about the knee and hock. I could see sooty being on the agouti gene, though sooty palominos would be hard to explain without ANOTHER type of agouti. But the fact that some types of sooty orient from the top-down suggests that agouti switched off at an unusual place. Imagine wild bay as keeping agouti switched on all the way down to the fetlocks. I could be totally off-base but I rather doubt it, to be honest.

I put "normally" in quotes because of wild bay. If you look at photos of Przewalski's horses, they too have some variation in color. These guys would be described as bay duns with pangare. Check out how high their points go. Now these are also bay duns with pangare, but their points are MUCH lower. Since both groups are bay dun with pangare, it seems unlikely that the variation in point restriction is related to either of those traits. Agouti seems a likely candidate.

As far as a dorsal stripe or neck cape being an undeniable mark of a dun, please refer to the purebred Arabian filly in the second photo. 

That is, I believe, the source of the theories about agouti. Countercanter (talk) 19:13, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Much food for thought. Will chew.  There is an article on sooty here in wiki?  Where?  Yep, I also have issues with any flaxen chestnut purebred Arab being marketed as a "palomino."  However, apparently there are two "Palomino" registries, and one has far looser rules than the other... Indeed, don't get me started, either!  More later after time to digest all of the above.  Montanabw (talk) 09:14, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Brown test now available
A test for seal brown is now available from the researcher I mentioned before. I, or someone, will have to get around to reworking this article and others to reflect that seal brown =/= dark bay.Countercanter (talk) 01:35, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Is this the discovery of the famous "sooty" gene? Or something else?  Do you have a link to an online source?  Or maybe enough bibliographic info that I can search for it on a couple of paid databases that I can currently access?  (Am teaching at a community college this semester, they have an uplink to the Mother Ship at the big State U)   If I can read it, I can try to work on it if you want to devote your energies to the LWS article.  Or not...  Montanabw (talk) 03:50, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This is the lab that offers the test. No, it is not sooty. The test identifies a marker on the agouti gene. I have yet to find a good article on the subject but will try to email this lab so that I can at least cite the correspondence.Countercanter (talk) 20:41, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Hm. The lab sounds like they mostly are using the UCD research...?  I would be interested in what they have to say.   This is sort of interesting, or at least confusing.  Do you think that this suggests assorted different mechanisms produce darkened shades?  Is liver chestnut created by a different mechanism than dark bay?  Is "seal brown" a different thing than just "brown" or from other types of dark bay, such as the almost-maroon-ish shade some folks call "black bay"  (I kind of find all these terms rather annoying, as I think they are mostly for PR, sigh).  Not sure you have the answer, perhaps it's just an open question...last I heard, the proposed "sooty" gene was what made for dark bay/brown horses as well as liver chestnuts and the darkening seen on horses like that buckskin photo you put up a while ago...is this still the working theory, or is something else going on?  (Or do I just have it all wrong from the get-go???)   Montanabw (talk) 03:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The brown test is this lab's research alone. Seal brown is analogous to black and tan in mice and dogs. The lighter ones overlap in phenotype with dark bays. Just as regular agouti does not affect chestnuts, nor does this agouti mutation. Countercanter (talk) 13:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)


 * If we can find the published study, then that would be cool. So to say "seal brown," how is this different from all other dark bays, virtually all of  whom usually have light coloring around the  muzzle, eyes, etc??  Or is this "pangare?"  Definitely want to see their research...   Montanabw (talk) 19:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Seal brown article
We/I/someone will need to update this article to reflect the new Seal brown (horse) article I finally got going. Countercanter (talk) 14:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Go for it, I am so busy right now that I'm lucky to get on wiki once a week. Other than still getting a little too technical for us little kids (grin), you are a darn good editor and getting better all the time.   Montanabw (talk) 05:00, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

New file File:Negotiator, a Bay Horse in a Landscape) by John Frederick Herring, Sr..jpg
Recently the file File:Negotiator, a Bay Horse in a Landscape) by John Frederick Herring, Sr..jpg (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. It's an 1826 painting by John Frederick Herring, Sr.. Dcoetzee 01:57, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Bayard
Why no etymology of Bayard (legend)?Alpharts Tod (talk) 23:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)
 * chicken or egg? No sources.  Montanabw (talk) 19:55, 20 November 2021 (UTC)