Talk:Baybars/Archive 1

Assessment POV
The beginning of this section seems to be a wikipedian coming to some random conclusion on how "remarkable" this guy is, and being a "product of his time". He may or may not be, I donno. But I suggest this gets removed, or replaced by a prominent source. The second half seems to have some useful information. Ash Lux 07:58, 26 January 2005 (UTC)

Protected
I have protected this because the current edit war is pointless and annoying. Please solve your problems here. Adam Bishop 23:43, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I think a temporary protection for this page was necessary. In fact there are two sources given about the ethnicity of Baibars in the article, namely Britannica and Columbia Encyclopedia references. What they cite about his ethnic origin is that he was Turkic. Everyone can read those references.
 * Chapultepec 23:57, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think CoCoWaWa speaks English... Khoikhoi 19:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, at least I can say I tried to discuss... Khoikhoi 16:20, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: attempts to communicate with said user are responded in this. Khoikhoi 16:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Haroun Of Baghdad
Removed this line Haroun of Baghdad is based on baibar.Haroun of Bagdhdad in Arabian Nights is based on real caliph haroun Rasheed... Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.147.165.180 (talk) 03:52, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * See "The Crusades" by Harold Lamb for a different opinion. The description of supposedly eighth century Bagdad in Arabian Nights  is obviously thirteenth century or later Cairo. Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.87.168.28 (talk) 05:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Slavery
I think this slavery box misshaping the page of Baibars. It has no direct connection to Baibars. Please consider that. Thank you. Samsam22 11:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC) This template was placed by an editor on August 29, 2007. For me it's a little bit overstated as well, I agree with you. So, for the moment I'm removing the template from the article. Any objections welcome! --Chapultepec 11:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Expanding Baibars Article
We should expand article of Baibars. What do you think ? Samsam22 (talk) 17:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Better wording
Right Chapultepec. I just added it as notice till we expand and fix this article. By the way I started an article about Lajin and corrected his name. When I am ready I will move to Baibars. Samsam22 (talk) 22:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem, we have enough time, no need to hurry. Yavash yavash.. =) --Chapultepec (talk) 22:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Cause of Death
Based on the linked sources, Baibars had a very interesting cause of death (incidental ingestion of poison). I would add something about this but I feel a little ill-informed in these areas to make a modification. Can a more knowledgable Wikipedian add a line or two regarding the cause of death? Thanks. :Leeannedy 22:26, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I just added a preliminary section on that. Hopefully someone later can come forward with some better sources than mine (which are all tertiary sources). --Politizer (talk) 15:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Coinage
Here's a coin of Baybars. Feel free to insert it in the article. Cheers PHG (talk) 20:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC) Better image PHG (talk) 20:20, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Name
Adam change seems ok, though readers will think that all sultans were named al-Malik since birth. Anyway, I think the most important that we have same name ( spelling )of each sultan on all pages. Thnx Samsam22 (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Was there some discussion about this somewhere else? The English name is Baybars, not Baibars. Google brings in 160k to 40k, and most of the 40k are going to be copies or references to this page here on wiki. Why did we do this? Seems like original research, or at least ignoring WP:NAME. [edit: I actually am curious and it's cool if there is a concensus, but no one noticed that every source for this article uses Baybars with the y?] -LlywelynII (talk) 13:02, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Google Books has it about equal; Baybars 1,363 to Baibars 1,039. Numerous scholarly books about the crusades use Baibars (although many use Baybars instead, of course). In this case I don't think it really matters. The Arabic diphthong in question can be transliterated either way. It can be transliterated even as -ei or -ey, and Google shows that Beibars and Beybars are also sometimes used. Some other languages even use Bajbars or Bejbars. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:30, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

BAIBARS and TURKIC(HUN People)
Baibars was a Blue Eyed, and Brunette(reason : climate)'Kipchak TURK(HUN)'. he was taken prisoner from Deshti-Kipchak(Caucasia).. and have been sold as a slave to Arabs.. BAIBARS Before the slave, then became Sultan-Emperor..only been able to do this "TURK(HUN)people" in the world. TURKIC(HUN)people created by the GOD "Superior-Warrior-Super Nationalist_Racist_Turk women are very high Virginity Honorable" TURKIC(HUN) people are Barbarian.. for example : HUN-MONGOL Invasions..but not mongolian slant-eyed. they are HUN(TURKIC) .. TURKs are sons of Islam Prophet Ibrahim..arab-hebrew-HUN(TURK) .. ALLAH(GOD) told the prophet İbrahim : I will make you a great nation" .. they are not arabs or hebrew.. hebrews are cursed horny tribe and arabs are bigoted.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.65.242.128 (talk) 17:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Have you ever read the references?
 * --Chapultepec 18:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Baibars is considered as one of the greatest circassian in history, in most of the circassian, arabic and many turkish history books he considered as a circassian. Even his look is more circassian than a turkish one (circassian have bright skin and hair while turkish are from mongol origin).


 * have you ever read descriptions of kipchaks in history? and do mongols have brown skin? wtf? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.149.175.230 (talk) 13:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen any Turkish books regarding Baibars as a Circassian nor the other the sources.
 * And authoritative sources like Britannica and Columbia encyclopedia reads that he was Turkic.
 * As for the Arab sources please read this one:
 * The Cambridge History of Islam By P. M. ( Peter Malcolm) Holt, Bernard Lewis
 * --Chapultepec 18:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Baibars was a Kipchak Turk; even his name is poof enough. His name is in old Turkic language, not in Circassian. Meaning of his name: bay(bey) means lord or senior, bars(pars) means panther or leopard. I know contemporary Circassians consider him their great national hero icon but this does not make him Circassian. There are many examples like that: Kurds, Arabs and Turks all consider Salahaddin-i Eyyubi was from their nationality; modern english people see Rchard the Lionheart as their national hero but he was french and he couldn't even speak a word of english; etc....Isatay 07:38, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Please remember Baibars was the sultan of Egypt. I do not understand Circassians or others consider him their great national hero.Samsam22 01:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
 * He was a mameluk not an Egyptian(aka Coptic), greek and surely not an Arab, he can be Turkic or Caucacian, but the fact is he just happened to have millions of Egyptian and arab slaves, get on with it.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.108.19.229 (talk) 19:54, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
 * many circassians were mamlukes too, and the true name of beibars is "pei pas" means in circassian language "ambush the enemy" or "wait the enemy" somehting like that, and it is known that there were another beibars, but that is known for sure that he was circassian, so how come that two sultans with the same name come from totally different origins? if beibars is a name of turks then why the other beibars had it?. well this is something we must check, if beibars was a circassian or not, because it is a fact that beibars was kiddnaped from the area of north west caucasus and balck sea, where is circassians homeland is situated, and it is known that area was occupied then by kypchak tribes, so it could be that beibars was circassian who were kiddnaped from that area and is known in these days as a kypchak because of the occupied areas of balck sea and caucasus by the kypchaks, and people belive that he came from kypchaks.Andynapso (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Baybars was from the Bahri dynasty. That means he was of Kipchak (Turkic) origin. There is no discussion on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.179.96.190 (talk) 01:43, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Circassian
Circassians are not of Turkic origin. Circassians are ethnic of Turkey. 'Turkish' mean.. Turk of Turkey.. Turkey's Turks are Oghuz-Kipchak Turkic people" people of Turkey are %50 Ethnic .. TURANIA <- Map of TURKIC(HUN) PEOPLE

TURKIC(HUN) people : Finns, Magyars(Hungarians),Letonians,Estonians,Lithuanians,Turkmens,Central Asian-Turkey-Caucasian Turkic people. etc..

- - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.173.142.170 (talk) 08:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)


 * People who are of Turkic/Turkish etnicity are 85% of modern Turkey's population. They are more than 60 million in the land. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.173.66.247 (talk) 19:22, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Clean-up lead
I recently made an edit in an attempt to fix a malformed sentence in the lead of the article. See here. The sentence is currently "Baibars or Baybars (الملك الظاهر ركن الدين بيبرس البندقداري, al-Malik al-Ẓāhir Rukn al-Din Baibars al-Bunduqdar),Baibars was Kipchak Turk origin, nicknamed Abu al-Futuh and Abu l-Futuhat, which means Father of Conquests, pointing to his victories .(literally "The father of conquest"; Arabic: أبو الفتوح) (1223 – 1 July 1277), was the fourth Sultan of Egypt from the Mamluk Bahri dynasty."

To be blunt, that's an abomination of the English language. There's a random sentence "Baibars was Kipchak Turk origin" inserted as a grammatically incorrect clause, information about "father of conquests" is repeated, and "pointing to his victories" makes the sentence run-on unnecessarily long. I propose changing it to: "Baibars or Baybars (الملك الظاهر ركن الدين بيبرس البندقداري, al-Malik al-Ẓāhir Rukn al-Din Baibars al-Bunduqdar), nicknamed Abu al-Futuh and Abu l-Futuhat (literally "The father of conquest"; Arabic: أبو الفتوح) (c. 1223 – 1 July 1277), was the fourth Sultan of Egypt from the Mamluk Bahri dynasty."

This trims down the sentence to a reasonable size and corrects the grammatical errors I noted above. Thoughts? ~ RobTalk 20:13, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Judging from the other articles concerning Bahri dynasty sultans, your revised version looks good to me. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:30, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * This was now reverted by . It looks like there's consensus for this edit, with the only dissenting editor being the IP that reverted it originally. ~ RobTalk 20:11, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I would suspect the IP is actually a blocked user. So their opinion is unimportant. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I strongly support the clean ups of the article. i think the revertion doesnt make sense 139.0.83.147 (talk) 20:03, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

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Name: Baybars not Baibars
Change his name/title. Aurangzayb (talk) 12:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 20 September 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk &#124; contribs) 15:53, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

– Baybars is the more common spelling. Srnec (talk) 15:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Baibars → Baybars
 * Baibars II → Baybars II
 * Sirat al-Zahir Baibars → Sirat al-Zahir Baybars
 * Baibars (disambiguation) → Baybars (disambiguation)
 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:18, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support: Sold. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:24, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support: per nom. I've also seen "Baybars" much more in WP:RS. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:08, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Support — A quick search of scholarly sources confirms the nomination's reasoning. Yue 🌙 08:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of Thorau
The physical description in the wiki article as it currently stands:

"Baybars was described as fair-skinned in contrast to the "swarthy" skin of the native Egyptians, broad-faced with small eyes, very tall (which was typical in both Arabic and European descriptions of Turkic men), and having a cataract in one of his eyes. Several descriptions say he had Blue eyes."

However much of this would appear to be a fabrication of Thorau. Thorau does not say Baybars was light skinned in comaprison to Egyptians; he in fact says Baybars was swarthy. And he doesn't mention anything about facial bone features, either.

Page 28 or his book reads:

A physical description from another source published by Brill is practically identical:

See also W.B. Bartlett (2021) for an identical description. - Hunan201p (talk) 08:21, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Early life and birthplace
When I check 2020 versions, it says he was born in Crimea, now it suddenly says Kazakhstan. All of those sources barely look like a RS and some of them are primary sources where we can not even verify it. Can anyone look at section? I think it has to be rewritten with reliable sources. Beshogur (talk) 10:46, 23 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Belated response just to say that you're right, it's a mess. The insertion of "Kazakhstan" was made here by an IP with no additional references added, while deleting mention of Crimea at the same time. So the Kazakhstan claim is unsourced. Presumably this was missed by other editors, because it should have been reverted immediately. It does appear to be a recurring claim in writings related to Kazakhstan (guidebooks etc), so I assume it has nationalist connotations here, but there's no reliable sources have been provided in support so far. I'm restoring the old wording for now, though it would help for the citations here to be improved and the attributions of each claim made clearer. R Prazeres (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Many of the currently cited sources are inaccessible and/or they're primary sources, which are discouraged on Wikipedia per WP:PRIMARY, unless treated cautiously and used with good justification. Only Britannica is accessible online (though there's apparently no consensus on whether it counts as WP:RS, see WP:BRITANNICA), and it seems to concur with other sources. For what it's worth, here's what I could find among reliable secondary sources:
 * Baybars I entry (by Thorau 2010) in Encyclopedia of Islam Three: "He was probably born about 625/1227–8 in the southern Russian steppes as a member of a Qipçāq-Turkish group."
 * Worth noting that Thorau, the author of this article, is also the author of what seems like the only full-length book on Baybars in English, The Lion of Egypt. This book is frequently cited by other scholarly sources, but I can't fully access it online.
 * Baybars I entry in Medieval Islamic Civilization: "Baybars was born around 1220 CE among the Qipchaq Turks, who lived in the steppe region north of the Black Sea." (p.101)
 * Baybars I" entry in Dictionary of World Biography: The Middle Ages: "Baybars I, al-Malik al-Zahir Rukn ak-Din Baybars al-Salihi, was born around the year 1223 in what is now southern Russia. A member of the tribe of Kipchak Turks living on the north shores of the Black Sea, Barbars was a victim of the Mongol invasion of his native region in the late 1230's. By the time he was fourteen, Baybars had become a prisoner of war; he was sold in the slave market in Sivas, Anatolia." (p.124)
 * Campbell 2015, Templar Knight vs Mamluk Warrior: 1218–50 (not sure that this one is as reliable as the others though): "Born north of the Black Sea into a Kipchaq Turkish tribe, (...)" (p.62)
 * So nearly all the sources so far say approximately the same thing. Going back further in the article's history, it seems that at one point many of the cited primary sources were there before any birthplace was specified, so it's unclear that these citations actually add anything helpful here. And only one source, added in 2020 here (I can't track down whether it was included in an earlier version), says Crimea, but given that the other sources don't say so, and given the unlikelihood that a more specific birthplace is known, this seems dubious. It's also not a specialized reference (it's an edited volume on English literature, not on Mamluk or medieval history), so it seems undue to give it weight equal to the others (WP:UNDUE). Here it is:
 * El Mougy 2014, in Adventuring in the Englishes: Language and Literature in a Postcolonial Globalized World: "Born in Crimea, Baibars was a Kipchak Turk (Kazakh Turk). It was said he was captured by the Mongols on the Kipchak steppe and sold as a slave, ending up in Syria." (p.17)
 * R Prazeres (talk) 05:35, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * You are mixing the story of Qotuz and Bebars, Bebars as sources say had two different eye colors which is a rare genatic disorder common in a group Cherkasians from the north caucas 217.165.89.72 (talk) 09:14, 29 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yap too much bullshit about changing his origin; the man was a cherkasian and that was part of their lands before the Tatars and turks sattled there; the name is famous between Cherkasians; every second man is called Bibars and they aren't Turks. With all respect to the Turks and all other nations 2A00:F28:FF4A:3548:1:0:DDD:A4BD (talk) 17:25, 28 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Baybars is a Turkish name, it has no meaning in Circassian. The historical Sultan Baybars spoke Kipchak Turkish. The Caucasus was invaded by various Turkic tribes hundreds of years before the 12th century - beginning with the invasion of the Huns, later the Avars, Khazars, Oghuz and many others, hence every single Caucasian is heavily mixed with ancient Turks. If you drive through regions of the Caucasus these days, you will see that the Turanid-type people predominate, the cultures simply merged very early on. 46.114.170.173 (talk) 03:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)