Talk:Be'eri massacre

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 October 2023
Change the Shaldag unit casualties to 5 according to latest interviews with the commander of the assault.

Article: https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/s1ce00xbw6 (Hebrew) Rexi312321 (talk) 03:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It has been changed . David O. Johnson (talk) 00:40, 16 October 2023 (UTC)

Veracity of sources for Yasmin Porat claim.
The website used to make this claim regarding Yasmin Porat ( https://new.thecradle.co/articles/survivor-of-hamas-assault-says-israeli-army-undoubtedly-killed-their-own-civilians ) specifies in the article that the source of their claim is Electronic Intifada ( https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861 ).

In that Electronic Intifada article, they state themselves that they do not have proof of the primary source existing; "Notably, the interview is not included in the online version of Haboker Hazeh for 15 October, the episode in which it apparently aired. It may well have been censored due to its explosive nature." and "Although it no longer appears on the Kan website, there can be little doubt about the recording’s authenticity" are the only proof they have on the veracity of the source itself.

I do not think it is unreasonable to request better sources than these two for such an extraordinary claim. 2607:F010:2E9:19:5998:2602:B997:C357 (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Per Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources EF is generally unreliable, so I've removed the section. Thanks for pointing this out. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:50, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It was broadcasted on Israeli radio kan REKA and TV channel 12.
 * The IDF has forbidden Israeli media from publish it and to interview any other survivors except ones approved by the IDF. 2A02:AA1:1643:17A9:C956:21AE:33B9:2009 (talk) 16:47, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The problem with using this argument is there is no proof that those broadcasts occurred since the primary source is not available and there is also no proof that "the IDF has forbidden Israeli media from publishing it" or "to interview any other survivors except ones approved by the IDF". Using the absence of evidence as proof of a conspiracy is not sufficient evidence to make such a claim. 2607:F010:2E9:19:A594:D7BC:91E2:97C7 (talk) 20:53, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * So your non conspiracy theory is that a journalist from channel 12 made the interview with a film team and someone identical to Yasmin Porat but just pretending to be Yasmin Porat and posted it himself with channel 12 logos etc? 2A02:AA1:1040:A559:D949:6210:BDE6:AEFD (talk) 13:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * It is not an unreasonable burden to ask for primary sources when making such a claim. I am sure if you provide a source that isn't one of those two above that the information can be added to this wiki page. Electronic Intifada, as the other person mentioned, is an unreliable source. 2607:F010:2E9:19:992E:434A:CCF4:91B3 (talk) 23:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Electronic Intifada is not an unreliable source.. even according to https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/electronic-intifada/ it is mostly factual, but I would argue its highly factual as they themselves have been unable to find any articles that failed fact checkers. Now if we aren't using sources because they might be very biased, why the FUCK would VOA be considered reliable? Does it not have a heavy bias towards portraying American foreign policy in a good light? 2601:601:8582:8FF0:ECC1:AA85:E0DF:3F50 (talk) 02:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * EI is listed as generally unreliable:
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Perennial_sources David O. Johnson (talk) 02:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * For real, VOA is a US government propaganda service, not a trustworthy media source. Makes me question everything else on the list of sources listed below by user O. Johnson. 24.96.150.197 (talk) 08:48, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Related sources:
 * Haaretz (green at WP:RSP). Archive. Quote from an interview with a local resident named Tuval, who was away from the kibbutz at the time but whose partner was killed:
 * קולו נשבר כשהוא נזכר בבת זוגו, שהיתה נצורה בממ"ד באותן שעות. לדבריו, רק ביום שני בלילה ורק אחרי שהמפקדים בשטח קיבלו החלטות קשות — בהן הפגזת בתים על יושביהם כדי לחסל את המחבלים יחד עם בני הערובה — צה"ל השלים את ההשתלטות על הקיבוץ. המחיר היה נורא: לפחות 112 בני בארי נהרגו. אחרים נחטפו. שלשום, 11 ימים לאחר הטבח, התגלו גופת אם ובנה באחד הבתים ההרוסים. ההערכה היא שגופות נוספות עדיין טמונות בין ההריסות.
 * Google translation: His voice broke when he remembered his partner, who was besieged in MMD at the time. According to him, only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions – including shelling houses on their occupants in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages – did the IDF complete the takeover of the kibbutz The price was terrible: at least 112 Be'eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.
 * Mondoweiss (yellow at WP:RSP): . Quotes:
 * In another report in Haaretz in Hebrew (it does not appear to be available in English) on October 11, probably following the same army-guided PR tour, Nir Hasson and Eden Solomon interviewed “Erez, deputy commander of an armored reserve battalion.” He described how he and his tanks unit “fought inside the kibbutz, from house to house, with the tanks.” “We had no choice,” he concludes.
 * Electronic Intifada published a long interview with Yasmin Porat, describing how she was held hostage by Palestinian militants in Kibbutz Be’eri. According to her account, the kidnappers treated her and other hostages “humanely,” believing they would be allowed to retreat safely to Gaza due to the protection of the Israeli captives. However, when the Israeli soldiers arrived, “they eliminated everyone, including the hostages. There was very, very heavy crossfire.” Her testimony is complemented by evidence from Israeli soldiers who described how the Israeli military shot tank shells into buildings where militants and their hostages were hiding. 
 * Andreas JN 466 12:49, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Note that Haaretz later slightly edited the coverage of the interview given above. Both an archive version dated 28 October and the current version say (Google translation, changes highlighted) "... in order to eliminate the terrorists without knowing whether the Israelis in those buildings were alive or dead ... The price of the Hamas attack was terrible: at least 112 Be'eri residents were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.
 * This may have been in response to social media claims and pieces like this one by The Grayzone (red at WP:RSP). Andreas JN 466 13:06, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The way its writtem here falsely implies that everyone was killed in the crossfire. The source who was not there says nothing like that. He says 112 people were and others kidnapped. Were the people kidnapped by the crossfore too? Clearly he is just saying how many people were killed in total. He has no way and does not claim to have a way to know when and hlw each person died 2600:4041:5256:300:BA18:828D:B05B:6515 (talk) 06:42, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Let me clarify. The wikipedia does more than falsely imply. It misstates the source. No where did anyone say 112 people were killed in the fighting. He said 112 were killed in Beeri. 2600:4041:5256:300:BA18:828D:B05B:6515 (talk) 06:46, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * I've edited this because it's been nagging me too. What doesn't help is that the Haaretz article went through at least three versions. Compare 20 Oct. vs. 28 Oct. vs. 31 Oct.. The first speaks of shelling the houses "to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages" and (arguably) presents the price of 112 dead as the result of that decision; the second version a week later speaks of shelling the houses "without knowing whether the Israelis in those buildings were alive or dead" (the version I have now used) and specifically attributes the 112 dead to the Hamas attack overall, rather than Israeli shelling, which I agree seems neither plausible nor knowable. (The third inserts an extra paragraph marker to separate the two statements.)
 * The man quoted lost his partner in the attack. He was not there on the Saturday morning, when the attack began, but I imagine he would have been worried about his partner and by Monday would have travelled back and/or followed developments very closely. My heart goes out to him. Regards, Andreas JN 466 18:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If you look at pictures of the aftermath, and think about what weapons Hamas actually has, you’ll quickly put two and two together and realize that Hamas couldn’t possibly have caused all of that damage.
 * also, Israel has a long history of killing their own people held hostage in order to discourage hostages being taken in the first place. Look up the Hannibal doctrine.  There’s a nice Wikipedia article about it. 24.96.150.197 (talk) 08:52, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you think should be changed or added to the article? Note that these are the words of Tuval Askupa who wasn't in the kibbutz during the attack. Alaexis¿question? 13:18, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Not sure. If multiple interviewees have said some of the dead were killed by friendly fire, this might be worth reporting. For now it may be best to wait for further reports to appear. Andreas JN 466 17:30, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I agree. For now we have one former hostage (Porat) who said that there was heavy crossfire and the Israeli forces shot at both terrorists and hostages, and we have Askupa, who wasn't there but said that tanks shelled houses. I think it's likely that some of the dead were the result of friendly fire, given the circumstances but let's wait until RS confirm it. Alaexis¿question? 06:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There are lots of sources on friendly fire, and no real reason to doubt or ignore the witness testimonies, not least the one published by Haaretz with is GREL at WP:RSP. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Again, I'm sure that there were victims of friendly fire. The question is what exactly we should add to this article at this moment. Your second and third links are about incidents unrelated to the Beeri massacre. Haaretz is indeed reliable, so writing "According to Tuval Askupa, whose relatives were murdered in Be'eri but who himself was not present there, Israeli tanks shelled the houses of the kibbutz while fighting Hamas" is okay from the reliability point of view. However I'm not convinced that it's due. There is no deadline, we can wait for RS to investigate it and make a synthesis of the available evidence. Alaexis¿question? 08:51, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The Cradle looks pretty suspicious btw. I haven't been able to find any information about the editorial team, while the Terms section produces a 500 server error. Alaexis¿question? 08:55, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * This has now been covered in Jacobin (magazine), a green source per WP:RSP, and I've added a couple of sentences about this. Andreas JN 466 18:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

A new article in Haaretz repeats the testimony of two Israeli survivors that the IDF fired tank shells at a building they knew to contain hostages as well as Hamas. Zerotalk 01:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @Zero0000 Thanks. Ynetnews.com reports (my emphasis): "Casualties fell as a result of friendly fire on October 7, but the IDF believes that beyond the operational investigations of the events, it would not be morally sound to investigate these incidents due to the immense and complex quantity of them that took place in the kibbutzim and southern Israeli communities due to the challenging situations the soldiers were in at the time." Andreas JN 466 15:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Survivor interview
in an Israeli interview with survivor Yasmin Porat she said that Hamas took them hostage but treated them humanly and that "The IDF eliminated everyone, including the hostages. There was very, very heavy crossfire."

Is there any accounts of the Wikipedia narrative? 2A02:AA1:1643:17A9:C956:21AE:33B9:2009 (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * There is a bit of cherry-picking here. After treating her "humanely" one of the militants used her as a human shield, per the recording. This is now discussed in the previous section. Alaexis¿question? 13:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
 * "one of the militants used her as a human shield" - only to surrender, as noted in her testimony - and presumably a good job too, since the Israeli forces were shooting everyone else who exited the building. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:41, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah, that definitely makes it okay. Alaexis¿question? 08:57, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
 * No, just different - as a fairly typical means of surrender for a hostage-taker in a hostage-style situation, as opposed to "human shield" use in the sense of using civilians as cover for combat. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:35, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

The security team did not kill the residents
"The kibbutz's 10-member security team fought the attackers but was overwhelmed and at least five were killed. After capturing the village, they started going from house to house, shooting or capturing the residents." This is nonsense, the Hamas not the security team killed the residents. 87.143.144.121 (talk) 14:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)


 * . Alaexis¿question? 21:34, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @87.143.144.121 here is testimonial of jewish survivor stated that Jews were killed by other Jews in crossfire: as Wiki blocks link to YouTube just search for "Survivor Speaks: Israeli forces shot their own civilians" 77.254.148.185 (talk) 11:39, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Number of pepole
Be’eri has 89 confirmed murderd people. Moreover, they have 29 kidnapped and missing people (including the 11th people that were released). Moreover, regrading the terroist that were killed inside the Kibbutz there were around 200. 2A0D:6FC7:405:172:E1BC:82DD:715E:C099 (talk) 06:39, 27 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Is there a source for that updated number (minus burned militants)? Iskandar323 (talk) 08:43, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

References and merging of "Survivors" subsection
The "Survivors" section currently makes roughly three statements: destroyed kibbutz (seems a bit redundant), killing of hostages by IDF, and that there was evidence of sexual violence. At the moment it does a poor job of detailing survivor experiences overall, which I assume was the original purpose. If we don't have enough information from survivors at the moment I would suggest merging this subsection in to the "timeline" above.

The "friendly fire" statements could be summarized:

"Yasmin Porat, a survivor, and Tuval Askupa, who volunteered in the Kibbutz after the massacre, believe that some hostages may have been killed by IDF shelling and gunfire".

I used EI as the reference because Jacobin, which is cited now, cites Mondoweiss, which cites EI. EI provides a translation of a Kan interview, and also links a channel 12 interview from a few days earlier but does not translate it. Also Porat doesn't say (in the translation by EI) that she was held captive for two days, EI just claims that some hostages were held for that time period before being killed by IDF, so "...said in an interview that Hamas held her and others captive for two days" should be removed. Overall I think the main message is that Porat believes that in the building she was held, if hostages were killed, it was in the crossfire. I don't like EI as a main source, but I suppose we cannot link the original Kan interview as its not in English?

There is a lot of information from survivors in this Reuters article, including a reference for the sexual violence (currently without a citation). As it stands though, the information about sexual violence doesn't have much to do with survivors, and is more related to the Yossi Landau testimony. MyOrbs (talk) 23:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Haaretz Twitter thread debunking Max Blumenthal conspiracy mongering
For reference, Haaretz wrote a thread on Twitter in response to Max Blumenthal's The Grayzone article (purportedly based on Haaretz reporting) claiming the IDF killed 100+ people at Beeri. Longhornsg (talk) 01:39, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Middle East Eye
Do not use Middle East Eye as a source. Torr3 (talk) 00:00, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Looking at the archives at RSN, the main guy pushing MEE as an unreliable source is Icewhiz, and I think his opinion can be considered worthless. Bobfrombrockley, whos opinion I trust, says its reliability is mixed. I am okay replacing the source. Hemiauchenia (talk) 00:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Read the Wikipedia article for Middle East Eye. Just the fact that they do not disclose their owner is a red flag to me. And then there's the possible state funding from Qatar. And it's very obvious that they are pro-Palestine and anti-Israel, yet I don't think they have acknowledged that. Their "About us" page says that their reporters "are encouraged to read between the lines". They are not talking about their opinion writers, but just "reporters". How I see that, is that the reporters are basically meant to guess what people really mean, in order to "take stories one step further". I guess that's fine if they actually do the investigative work to confirm that the things they imagine is true, but... it doesn't say anything about deep investigative work. Torr3 (talk) 01:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The article essentially restates the reporting by Haaretz without a paywall, which is why I used it, not for any original analysis. I have no objections to other people with ECP access removing it, since the original Haaretz source is cited now. Hemiauchenia (talk) 01:30, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
 * ✅ Alaexis¿question? 07:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)


 * @Torr3 180.252.173.151 (talk) 05:07, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

The Cradle
"The Cradle" should definitely not be used again. I noticed this source was cited by this page and recently removed by @Drsmoo. See consensus here Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_422, and the detailed analyis by @Shadowwarrior8 there. Marokwitz (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2023 (UTC)


 * Since the controversy regarding "The Cradle" has resurfaced here, notifying editors about the ongoing RfC regarding this website in the noticeboard. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 04:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Verifiability
The only sources asserting a "Be'eri massacre" are primary, Israel sources. The vast majority of sources on this page do not say anything about a massacre, and those that do almost exclusively refer to the broader massacre of 7 October. For this article to justify its standalone existence multiple reliable third-party sources would need to be included that specifically discuss a "Be'eri massacre", otherwise we're left with either WP:OR or the parroting back of biased news coverage. Dylanvt (talk) 15:06, 22 December 2023 (UTC)


 * That's not accurate, there are plenty of international sources used in the article (The Guardian, CNBC, CBC, ABC). E.g., Now /Beeri/ is ... one of the centres of the massacre undertaken by the militant Islamist group Hamas.
 * Even more importantly, many Israeli sources are reliable and there is no reason not to use for various details. Is there something specific you'd like to change? Alaexis¿question? 19:36, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree with Alaexis - the templates and arguments of Dylanvt are tendentious and wholly without merit, and should be reverted and removed. Andre🚐 20:03, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * "Beeri is ... one of the centres of the massacre undertaken by the militant Islamist group Hamas" explicitly refutes that there is a distinct "Be'eri massacre". That source, like others, very clearly refers to a broader October 7 massacre, not to a distinct Be'eri one. Dylanvt (talk) 21:32, 22 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There's both a broader attack and each massacre that was a component. Your argument is invalid. If you want to rename it to "attack," you can propose that. Andre🚐 21:35, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Update casualty counts to match newer published numbers
Also the sidebar need to be changed: 8 IDF soliders were killed in addition to the 5 security forces. Israel published updated lists of the victims.
 * What I think should be changed (format using textdiff):
 * Why it should be changed:


 * References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

- Swords of Iron: Civilian Casualties

- Swords of Iron: Israel Police, Security Forces (Shabak) and First Responders Casualties

- Swords of Iron: IDF Casualties

Bowad91017 (talk) 14:29, 31 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Shadow311 (talk) 16:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Specifically, A source for the claim of 109 being killed instead of 130 being killed. Shadow311 (talk) 16:05, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Shadow311 For the civilian numbers here an article published by NY Times What Happened in the Hamas Attack on Be’eri, Israel - The New York Times (nytimes.com) [published on 22.12.2023]
 * "The loss of at least 97 civilians constituted almost one in every 10 people who lived in Be’eri,"
 * It is one more, than the Israeli gov list. I'm not sure which one is more reliable. The Israeli gov list is more recent.
 * The current source the article is using is from the 18th October, there was not enough time to identify the victims (possibly some Hamas militants were mislabeled or some were assumed dead)
 * 96 + 8 + 5 = 109 or 97 + 8 + 5 = 110 Bowad91017 (talk) 17:27, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * @Shadow311 The source is the list of victims published by the government. I think they are very reliable (In my opinion, it's an amazing level of transparency and thoroughness)
 * I understand the counting would be a bit of work. Here is a script to help you (but it shouldn't replace manual checking), you can run it in your browser using dev tools:
 * [...document.querySelectorAll("li")].map(x => x.innerText).filter(x => (x.includes("Be’eri")||x.includes("Be'eri") || x.includes("Beeri") || x.includes("Beéri")) && !x.includes("captivity"))
 * You can add .length to the end of the script to find the count, on the 3 different pages, it would return 96, 5, 8
 * Since the IDF victims are 8, here is a list of them: Arie Kraunik, Hagay Avni, Eitan Hadad, Shachar Zemach,  Gil Bowom, Noy Shosh, Edan Barukh, Yarin Mari
 * You can verify it using CTRL+F on the IDF Casualties
 * If checking the civilan victims is too much work, could you partially address the edit request by adding the 8 IDF victims to the sidebar?
 * Exracting the list of civilan victims wouldn't be too much work either if you need it (not done here for space constraints)
 * If you need any help, let me now. ~ Bowad91017 (talk) 17:11, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I abstain in responding to this edit request, but unless I didn't read the source correctly, I can't seem to verify the eight casualties you noted in this source you noted above. Also, in addition to The New York Times source stated above, where is the source for the thirteen additional deaths (I'm assuming the eight casualties are included in this total, and maybe it's in the Swords of Iron sources – but I can't verify) and the deaths of twelve abducted hostages dead while in captivity? ~ Tails   Wx  (he/him • aroace • 🐾) 19:18, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
 * - hi mentor! first, sorry for dragging you into this, my question was not about this request specifically. But about what's the correct etiquette on reopening edit requests.
 * - About the 5 Shaldag Unit s, they are already listed in the article now (but you can find their names in Swords of Iron: Israel Police, Security Forces (Shabak) and First Responders Casualties)
 * - About the 8 IDF victims, you are indeed correct. For the IDF page they only listed where people are from not necessarily where they died. Sorry, about that I got confused myself. (it also means that there could be IDF soliders from other places who died in Be'eri)
 * From the list of names, I posted. I could verify that 7 of them, were in Beeri when the died (either through explicit mention or through being local officers there). But "Yarin Mari" was killed in a nearby military base.
 * - "Master Sgt. (res.) Arie Kraunik, 54, a local security officer, from Be’eri." IDF names three more fallen soldiers | The Times of Israel
 * - Hagay Avni: Hagi Avni, 50: Event designer, father of 5 who sought to defend home | The Times of Israel
 * - Eitan Hadad: https://www.timesofisrael.com/eitan-hadad-43-talented-bass-player-who-was-all-heart/
 * - Shachar Zemach: "On October 7, Zemach, 39, a member of Kibbutz Be’eri’s security squad, was killed after fighting the terrorists for seven hours" Israeli Peace Activists Who Lost Loved Ones in the Hamas Massacre Stand Their Ground - Israel News - Haaretz.com
 * - Gil Bowom: Gil et Inbar Buyum, 55 et 22 ans : un père et un fils qui ont voulu défendre Beeri - The Times of Israël (timesofisrael.com)
 * - Noy Shosh: Noy Shosh, 36: Fought terrorists outside his front door | The Times of Israel
 * - Edan Barukh: Edan, Sahar & Geula: Savta & 2 grandsons slain, captured, killed | The Times of Israel
 * But Yarin Mari was not killed in Beeri but in a nearby base: Staff Sgt. Yarin Peled, 20: Medic who scrawled last request facing death | The Times of Israel Sorry, I was wrong. Bowad91017 (talk) 14:44, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * > the deaths of twelve abducted hostages dead while in captivity?
 * a list of those can be found in here: https://www.gov.il/en/departments/news/swords-of-iron-civilian-casualties#Murdered-in-captivity Bowad91017 (talk) 14:48, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * indeed I was wrong here are more officers, that died in Be'eri but are not from Be'eri (they are listed in this source but without mention of Be'eri)
 * - Maj. Benjamin Trakeniski, 32, of Tel Aviv – 7th (Storm from the Golan) Armored Brigade.:
 * Maj. Benji Trakeniski, 32: Husband-to-be who rescued dozens | The Times of Israel
 * - Chief Warrant Officer Ido Rosenthal, 45, of Moshav Ben Shemen - Unit 5101 (Shaldag), Israel Air Force.: Chief Warrant Officer Ido 'Crido' Rosenthal, 45: A habitual hero | The Times of Israel Bowad91017 (talk) 16:16, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Lt. Nave Elazar Lax, 21, of Lod - General Staff Reconnaissance Unit (Sayeret Matkal). Lt. Nave Lax, 21: Talented musician who 'loved and was loved' | The Times of Israel
 * Lt. Yonatan Goutin, 20, of Modi’in-Maccabim-Reut - IDF Multidimensional Unit: Lt. Yonatan Goutin, 20: Star judoka who chose combat in IDF | The Times of Israel
 * Maj. Sagi Golan, 30, of Raanana – The LOTAR Counter-Terror School, Marom Brigade. Cpt. Sagi Golan, 30: Killed 13 days before wedding to his boyfriend | The Times of Israel
 * Staff Sgt. Valentin Elie Ghnassia, 22, of Jerusalem – 890th Battalion, Paratroopers Brigade.Valentin Elie Ghnassia, 22: French 'ray of sun'; volunteered for IDF | The Times of Israel
 * Bowad91017 (talk) 16:42, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * - Lt. Col. Eli Ginsberg, 42, of Kibbutz Dovrat - Shayetet (Flotilla) 13 Reconnaissance Unit, Israel Navy.Lt. Col. Eli Ginsberg, 42: Retired from long IDF career, returned to fight | The Times of Israel Bowad91017 (talk) 17:32, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
 * I'll look through and respond within the next few days, thanks! ~ Tails   Wx  (🐾, me!) 16:40, 4 February 2024 (UTC)


 * What I think should be changed (format using textdiff):
 * Why it should be changed: I believe that using the term "claiming the lives of" is a euphemism which is inappropriate for Wikipedia tone-wise.
 * References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

JohnR1Roberts (talk) 13:47, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: OP blocked.  thetechie@enwiki  :  ~/talk/  $  03:06, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 July 2024
Replace the words 'by Hamas' in the sentence "One of the twins' bodies was so badly burned by Hamas that it was only identified more than a month after the attack" to 'by the shelling.'

(There was a shootout at Pesi Cohen's house in Kibbutz Beeri between militants who held hostages and between Israeli forces outside the house. Then an Israeli tank fired two shells on the house with the hostages. All the Israeli hostages were killed except one who was set free and one who was there. The bodies were burned by the Israeli tank shelling, not by Hamas.)

Orlyh (talk) 14:06, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


 * The references provided are outdated. Most of the hostages were killed by AK-47 not by the Israeli tank shell.  I have not seen any reports indicating that the tank shells were incendiary whereas many murdered bodies in Be'eri were burned beyond recognition by the Hamas attackers. Annette Maon (talk) 05:31, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * 'Most of the hostages were killed by AK-47 not by the Israeli tank shell.' That is what the preliminary IDF report claims. Though possible, it is not, so far, an ascertained "fact" but the viewpoint of one of the parties in a violent conflict. The other POV is that the shelling caused their deaths.
 * In this specific case, 'by Hamas' is informing readers that (a) the Hamas militants presumably went round executing the hostages one by one, and then (b) set fire to the house they were firing from, and the conflagration was due not to the two tank shells but to sn incendiary suicidal gesture of Hamas militants when the shells struck. Go figure.
 * Editors, given the high volume of misleading reportage and the IDF's long record of absolving itself by its internal investigations, should exercise care not to assume they know the truth. I for one don't. The statement cannot be repaired, per WP:NPOV, by picking one of the two possible explanations and siding with it. NPOV is assured, in this case, by simply writing,
 * "'One of the twins' bodies was so badly burned it took a month to be identified.'Nishidani (talk) 08:12, 10 July 2024 (UTC)"

Is the phrase "a religious Jew from the West Bank settlement of Tekoa" relevant or necessary?
In addition to being a distraction, it creates a confusing run on sentence and disrupts the flow of the paragraph.Annette Maon (talk) 05:24, 10 July 2024 (UTC)


 * You have altered the grounds you gave for excising those words. I monitor many articles just to see that we don't have a monochrome narrative line espousing just one POV. The facts are as follows.


 * You elided a few words specifying where the commandant who gave what looks like a version of the Hannibal directive came from. In doing so yoiur edit summary states: remove irrelevant reference to the controversial term "west bank"


 * I reverted your edit with a more than adequate explanation here, namely ‘There is nothing controversial in RS about the term West Bank. It is the default term decided on by consensus 15 years ago.’
 * You registered in 2016. And in 8 years made 603 edits, which qualifies you as an IP editor. Apparently, as new to this area, you are unfamiliar with the fact that the ‘West Bank’ is not a controversial term, being by consensus chosen as the neutral phrasing for what a settler-friendly constituency asserts is objectively to be called ‘Judea and Samaria’. In stating that ‘West Bank’ is controversial, you  are challenging the consensus of reliable sources, and a decision made by the Wikipedia community 15 years ago.


 * Now, apparently accepting that correction, you have changed your objection to justify the same elision. A clarifying poarenthesis of 9 brief words, apparently creates confusion and disrupts 'the flow' of the paragraph. On that principle, qualifying clauses should never be used in wiki prose. There is no policy that would support this antic viewpoint.
 * The decision taken by the commander was and remains highly controversial in Israel. A snippet that, following sources on Be'eri, notes both his religious background and settler status, is not 'disruptive', but informative. Nothing is added to spin this detail. That is left to the readership.Nishidani (talk) 08:48, 10 July 2024 (UTC)