Talk:Beach volleyball

Expert Information Request
Can someone add info on 1.) When scoring switched to Rally scoring; 2.) What years 4 man or woman teams where used; 3.) Whether they have switched from strict double elimination to modified double elimination until the winners and losers brackets each had 2 teams left; and 4.) How the length of the season has changed. TonyTheTiger 18:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Which organisation are you referring to? Personally, I wouldn't say that (3) or (4) are particularly notable unless there's something I don't know about here. Cheers --Pak21 20:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

FIVB went to rally scoring in 2000 basically to make the game more TV friendly, especially with the Olympics in mind. The AVP, the U.S. pro tour, followed suit as did everyone else. At this time the long court was also scrapped in favor of the current 8m x 8m short court. 4-man (4-person co-ed) is still used in some locally-run tournaments, but it was more prevalent in the old "Parks and Rec" daysn along the Southern California beaches in the 1940s through 1970s. Main draw tournaments generally are double elimination, with a first loss resulting in reseeding in the loser's bracket. A second loss once in the loser's bracket and you're done. But you could still lose only one match and be out, if the loss occurs in the tournament semi-finals or finals. In the AVP, there is also a single elimination play-in round before the main draw starts called the qualifier. The FIVB generally uses this format but with slight alterations. Its events include country qualifiers for non main draw teams the result in reseeding for winners. Check with your local tournament to see how they do it. As for season length, they have generally gotten longer, but again it depends. Many of the top Brazilians for example play nearly year round, as they compete during the northern hemisphere's summer months on the FIVB Tour, then compete in the southern hemisphere's summer months on their own domestic circuit. 208.57.237.112 19:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)Ryan Gray, www.bvmag.com

Professional
I think this article would really benefit from a section on professional beach volleyball around the world. Links to the major leagues can be put there, as can any important information about those leagues, differences between them, any rankings of quality, etc. matt91486 23:47, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocking? (and other incorrectly stated rules)
Is it permitted to hit a ball a second time after having attempted to block it (and making contact), as it seems like I've seen players do this, which would seem to go against the one-hit-per-player rule TheHYPO (talk) 09:06, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The block counts as one hit (even if multiple contacts were made in a single attempt to block the ball), and either player may make the second hit.

There are other rules incorrectly stated as well. For example, in the AVP you can use any part of the body (not just hands or arms). Also the statement "Players on each team attempt to hit the ball over the net in such a way that it touches the ground inside the court boundaries" is technically incorrect. The ball is in if it hits the boundary, even if it hits the ground completely outside the boundary (e.g. if the line is slightly elevated due to a low spot in the sand, and the ball hits the line but then its mark is completely outside the line). --Thedillybar (talk) 18:10, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, not that we're getting down to the pedantic minutiae or anything. --Jasonschock (talk) 05:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I just have a comment to the block signals. The 'open hand' means no block, and the 'fist' means blocking on the ball, without choosing line or diagonal. Somehow these two signals were mixed up in the article. Also, I might add a tactical detail: When you twitch your finger(s) when showing your block signal it means that you will try to fool the attacker by appearing to block one thing but actually blocking the other by jumping sideways in the last second. The person playing defense behind the block needs to know the blocker is attempting this move; this way he will keep his position instead of thinking that his blocker is out of position. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.62.89.61 (talk) 21:50, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed notable players
''Removing Notable Players from the article because it's a mess. There's nothing wrong with mentioning notable people that contributed greatly to the sport, like Charles "Charlie" Saikley (perhaps mentioned in a History section), but a simple "notable players" is just going to be huge subjective list that adds no understanding for the casual reader. Links to AVP or FIVB should allow a reader to discover more about specific players.  Please see Baseball or Soccer for excellent examples of articles that focus on a high-level view of the sport.''

--Jasonschock (talk) 00:03, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Notable players
Today, Brazil is the ruling country in FIVB men's beach volleyball, filling many of the top positions of the FIVB ranking. Top-rated players include 2004 Olympic gold medalists Emanuel Rego and Ricardo Santos, Marcio Araujo, and others. In the FIVB women's rankings, China and Brazil are the leading countries.

US players typically don't compete in the FIVB, but rather play in the AVP or the EVP, which hold tournaments only in the US. Karch Kiraly remains perhaps the world's best-known male volleyball player, and is the only person to have won Olympic gold medals in both the indoor and beach versions of the sport. Rivalling Karch throughout the 1980s was the former all-time wins leader, Sinjin Smith. Currently, the top-ranked players on the 2007 AVP tour are the 2008 Olympic gold medalists Phil Dalhausser/Todd Rogers on the men's side, and the well-known 2004 and 2008 Olympic gold medalists Misty May-Treanor/Kerri Walsh on the women's side. The duo of May-Treanor and Walsh, are said to be the best beach volleyball players of all time said by the 2008 Olympic commentators.

International female stars include Brazilians Ana Paula Connelly, Sandra Pires, Shelda Bede, and Adriana Behar, and Australians Kerri Pottharst and Natalie Cook. The young Brazilian Carolina Solberg Salgado has won a gold medal in Under-18 and Under-21 FIVB tournaments two years in a row.

Australia's retired Kerri Potharst was a two time medalist and represented Australia for 22 years.

Uniform Controversy
Currently, the article states:
 * "People have pointed out that professional beach volleyball is one of the only sports where female athletes are mandated to wear a uniform which does not exceed a certain size, essentially encouraging a "less is best" approach towards female attire, and argue that it is simply a ploy to market the game for viewership and sponsors."

I have read similar statements often in newspapers. However, I could not find anything in the official FIVB rules to support this. Does anybody know the details? Is there really a rule like this, possibly restricted to some competitions? -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 15:19, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The 2004 Olympic uniform guidelines certainly have maximum clothing requirements. These probably don't apply directly to (eg) the 2005 World Tour, but I strongly suspect the FIVB would introduce some if they felt that the women were wearing "too much" (to put it somewhat crudely) --Pak21 18:08, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks; that is what I was looking for. I see that the women are not required to wear a bikini, so I changed the caption accordingly. I also changed "one of the only" to "one of the few" in the above fragment, but left the rest for the moment (I share Pak21's suspicions). -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 18:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Where do we find these surveys? -Willmcw 01:04, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Surveys have shown that the majority of male spectators at womens beach volleyball events enjoy looking at the attractive and scantily-clad players far more than the sporting action in itself, another observation that critics like to frequently point out.

Controversy section lost, relaced and now RENAMED to "Uniform Controversy"
A vandal replaced the Controversy section with garbage:. The reverter of the vandalism did not replace the section:. I didn't really like the section anyway, but if the section is not going to be replaced, it would be better done by consensus than in the form of overlooked vandalism. Rracecarr (talk) 19:00, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not sure why this wasn't done right away, because it's certainly a relevent and important issue.

I'm going to bring the section back in two steps. I'll first just bring back the last version, then simplify and reduce or cite some of the unsourced statements.TjoeC (talk) 17:49, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Now 207.104.44.187 has made some interesting and valuable edits, but has rather unilaterally renamed the controvery section "Uniforms". Please don't make major changes like that without some concensus or at least discussion. But it is probably a decent addition....I'm thinking compromise on "Uniform Controversy"TjoeC (talk) 03:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Controversy section
The responses to criticism in the final para of this section seems a bit unsatisfactory to me. I know nothing about beach volleyball, but what was noticeable to me when I read the section was that the criticism and responses weren't actually addressing quite the same issue. Saying that the uniforms are practical for the heat of summer is akin to saying that similar uniforms are practical in (to use the article's example) pole vaulting. But pole vaulters are not required to wear such uniforms, and are free to "cover up" if they want. The section needs a (referenced) quote from a prominent figure defending, specifically, the requirement for maximum clothing sizes, because it is that, specifically, which is given as the main criticism. Loganberry (Talk) 23:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Removed Uniform Controversy AND Again restored! - comments please!
''There's a lot of reasons why this shouldn't be here, but basically this article should focus on a high-level view of the sport of beach volleyball, not the politics of sport. The controversy is inherent to the politics of FIVB, AVP and perhaps the IOC. It is not inherent to the game itself.''

''This controversy probably belongs on its own page, or perhaps on the FIVB site, or AVP, or somewhere else. I don't care.''

''A casual reader, however, should receive a treatment on the factual, technical and historical aspects of the game. Link to related lists and related stuff instead of listing it here. Please see Baseball or Soccer for excellent examples of articles that focus on a high-level view of the sport. '' --Jasonschock (talk) 00:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I strongly disagree, and object to the unilateral chopping of the section. Let's have some concensus before cutting such a major portion of the article.  (I'll leave the issue of the other edits to others... (Removing notable players, for example)


 * It's fairly clear that you have some substantial interest in beach volleyball, given all the work you're putting into this article. (I tried in vain on your contributions page to find an edit NOT related to volleyball.)  Wikipedia's purpose is an encyclopedia, and the uniform controvery is one of the areas of greatest general interest in beach volleyball.  Please note the discussion above as well as the numerous edits in this area.


 * I guarantee you that if the women's golf tour started plaing in bikinis.... or tuxedoes... it wopuld be noted in their article. That spurred the thought... what sports have out of the ordinary uniforms, and do their articles address this.... the answer is yes for [Dressage], [], [], [], [], etc.


 * So I'll restore the article and ask for some concensus. If folks agree it should be removed, then maybe it makes some sense.TjoeC (talk) 03:09, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


 * First, I understand why this is a perceived controversy because it's been getting a lot of media coverage. However, there is undue weight being given to a non-issue. Where is the controversy? Where are the citations from authoritative sources who object to the uniforms? "Beach volleyball has been criticized ..." is the equivalent of "Some people say ..."


 * Second, every sport has a controversy - often many controversies - swirling around it. These will always exist. Does this mean they should be added to the high-level page on the sport? No. These dilute the page and are fairly inconsequential to a casual reader. If you feel there's enough information to document an actual controversy, give it a mention here and link to Controversy over beach volleyball uniforms or some such.


 * Third, the assumption that the uniforms are "out of the ordinary" is understandable, but ill informed. Surprise, surprise: women who play recreational beach volleyball play in bikinis, too. There was no sudden decision by someone in power to force women to wear bikinis to sell the sport with sex. Bikinis are simply the most practical outfit for the game, a fact for which there are citations. It's a moot point. Female gymnasts and indoor volleyball players wear tiny, revealing outfits. No controversy there.


 * In the large scheme, the uniforms are a very small facet of the sport. Just because it gets a lot of news coverage doesn't mean it should be a major part of the page. The subject is beach volleyball, not beach volleyball uniforms. Take Baseball for example. There is only one mention of any steroid scandals. There is a separate page with a treatment on Banned substances in baseball.


 * Thanks for your active interest on this. Hope we can improve this article together. --Jasonschock (talk) 07:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think your changes are very good, and vastly improve the paragraph and the overall article.TjoeC (talk) 03:33, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, not trying to be a dick here, but now that I've rewritten the "controversy" section strictly adhering to cited sources, can someone please show me the meat of said "controversy"? There is a tiny quote from an obscure Australian news source, and a quote from CNN, both from 1999, and neither containing any material supporting any kind of real controversy. "Drew the ire of players" and Gabby Reece saying bathing suits are annoying do not a controversy make.


 * A controversy would imply there are two majority opposing viewpoints. Yet, there are:


 * -No angry players up in arms, threatening a strike.
 * -No religious figures decrying the FIVB.
 * ''-No quotes from authoritative sources from either side of the supposed controversy.

''
 * The facts just simply aren't there. There is no controversy. Unless someone can give me good evidence supporting a real controversy, I'm going to make a motion to have the section removed. Feel free to create a new page for the controversy topic and we'll link to it.


 * --Jasonschock (talk) 04:31, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks like someone reverted all of Jasonschock's changes, complaining in the comment that the article was "chopped." I would only ask that major edits be done only after concensus is reached. I reverted the uniform controvery section to his edits, which were closely fact-chaecked.TjoeC (talk) 02:32, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Looks like Jasonschock has removed the uniform section again. I don't understand why this is done unilaterally without seeking concensus. It is absolutely inappropriate to keep unilaterally reverting and deleting this section. Putting it away in a separate page makes little or no sense; It's an important issue in the sport, despite the blind eye that the promoters of the sport may want to promote.

Your argument that there is no uniform issue or controversy is not supported. You can't whitewash reality, The fact that this sport is the only one played in bathing suits out of water, means something. That women are REQUIRED to wear more revealing uniforms than men is relevant. And that the popularity of the sport exploded when these rules were institutionalized is relevant. There were numerous citations to the issue, and it is clearly encyclopedic.

I put in a request for a third opinion. I have no interest in engaging in a revert war, so unless other Wikipedians chime in in this issue, I'm not going to waste more time. Here's one versionTjoeC (talk) 04:31, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Third Opinion
It looks to me as if two reasonably respectable sources (CNN and ABC News) say, at length, that there is some sort of controversy therefore there is some sort of controversy. It is my opinion that the section is reasonably well written and is not WP:UNDUE and can stay more or less as is. --Regents Park (sniff out my socks) 17:13, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * A lot of time went by with no added comments after the third opinion voted for inclusion of the uniform controversy section. As such, I will return the last fact-checked version to the article.--TjoeC (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please expand this article
See Baseball and Soccer for excellent examples from featured articles.

Please add sections:
 * Overview
 * History
 * Rules and Gameplay
 * Governing Bodies
 * International and domestic tour organization and structure
 * Popularity
 * Lifestyle

--Jasonschock (talk) 00:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding junk at the bottom of the page
I think the stuff at the bottom of this page detracts from the article. It's visually noisy, it looks "cheap", and it's tagged on like some kind of afterthought. What does it really add to the understanding of the sport?

Wouldn't it be better to link to this kind of highly-detailed info on another page and leave this page clean and high-level?

Again, see Baseball and Soccer as examples of highly-developed sports topics.

--Jasonschock (talk) 00:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Karch quote moved here
"You talk to any player and if they were told they could only win one tournament in their whole career, everybody would choose it to be here in Manhattan. There's an extra fire among all the players." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jasonschock (talk • contribs) 07:24, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Changes to intro
The changes repeatedly made to the intro by Jasonschock are not an improvement in my opinion.

1) Removing the word "Olympic" from the first sentence loses an important piece of information about the sport.

2) Changing the second sentence so that it is mainly about indoor volleyball rather than beach volleyball in stylistically bad.

3) Listing variations with four and six players (without a reference) ignores the fact that 3 player teams are quite popular in some places.

Adding an empty section called "Overview" is unhelpful.

Continually removing the entire "Olympics" section is tantamount to vandalism.

Please discuss further changes to the intro here.

Thank you.

Rracecarr (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Can you please stop blanket-reverting the entire lead? That's fine if you want to make edits. I didn't blanket delete the original lead; I modified what was there. You're not going to win any friends if you just keep reverting it back completely. The point is to generate a global point of view, not your point of view.


 * The current lead is also lacking terribly in good sentence structure, contains too much trivia, and is generally not very easy to read.


 * Regarding Olympics: This page is a broad treatment, high-level overview of the sport, not a repository for each and every detail about beach volleyball. There are many aspects of the sport that aren't related to the Olympics. Plus, there is already an entire wikipedia page devoted to the Olympics, so linking to this should be sufficient.


 * I say this over and over, but have a look at other sports and how their pages are structured. Baseball and Soccer, for example.


 * Ummmm.... how bout see Volleyball, for example???  Point is, there are a gazillion sports, but only a few Olympic sports. You are right that there are aspects of the game not related to the Olympics.  It is still asinine to keep deleting the fact that beach volleyball is an Olympic sport from the lead. Rracecarr (talk) 13:31, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Please see Guide to writing better articles if you need guidance. Thanks.

--Jasonschock (talk) 02:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, regarding the reference to indoor volleyball: Hate to tell you, but beach volleyball is just a variation of the game of volleyball. A casual reader's high-level understanding of how the game is played is immediate if they are already familiar with the "regular" game. In fact, the first sentence should probably mention that beach volleyball is a variation of volleyball.

--Jasonschock (talk) 02:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Olympics
There is already entire page devoted to beach volleyball at the Olympics. The preferred way to handle this on Wikipedia is to simply link to it, rather than have redundant information. --Jasonschock (talk) 02:18, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes but you have deleted information. Nowhere on Wikipedia, as far as I can tell, can you now find the names of the winners of the 1992 Olympic exhibition competition. Rracecarr (talk) 13:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Fine, then put that information on the Olympics page. It does not belong here. --Jasonschock (talk) 21:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Exhibition info moved to Olympics page. It's a lot more helpful if you just move this kind of stuff yourself, rather than complaining about it being deleted and replacing it. Thanks. --Jasonschock (talk) 21:47, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the mention of Olympics in the lead
The reason why we leave this out is because this is general treatment on the game of beach volleyball. The playing of the sport at the Olympics is but one small aspect of the game. It is also played:


 * Internationally on the FIVB tour
 * Domestically on the AVP tour
 * Recreationally

If anything, this article needs to stay abstracted from the particulars of organized competition and instead link to related tours, organizations, tournaments, events, etc.

It's great that it is an Olympic sport. To mention this in the lead, however, gives undue weight to a small facet of the sport.

--Jasonschock (talk) 22:26, 11 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The point is, as I have already said, there are tons of games that are played recreationally and competitively in various places. Only a small handful are contested at the Olympics.  The fact that beach volleyball is an Olympic sport is notable for that reason, and the fact belongs in the lead.  On a side note, it also sets beach volleyball apart from other variations of volleyball which are not as widespread, like, say, wallyball. Rracecarr (talk) 04:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Please add to Rules and gameplay section
This section sorely needs a rewrite.

Good stuff to write about would be:
 * General characteristics of beach volleyball gameplay: shots, sets, movement on sand, ability to dive on sand, jumping ability
 * Fundamentals
 * The court
 * Sand type and depth
 * Beach volleyball strategy

Input from experts would be appreciated. User:Rracecarr?

--Jasonschock (talk) 22:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC) To the very people in the world

-- I have removed the incorrect assertion that Beach Volleyball is different from indoor Volleyball in that it is illegal to touch the net. It is not, those rules are by and large identical in beach and indoor. I have also added a link to the latest version (2013-2016) of the official rules. (87.59.128.253 (talk) 23:10, 23 August 2015 (UTC))

Replaced ref
The statement "Kerri Walsh and Misty May-Treanor, who won two consecutive gold medals in 2004 and 2008 Summer Olympics, were named "the greatest beach volleyball team of all time". had a reference:

which is a nice video, but I didn't hear the claim. I replaced it with which does make the claim. -- SPhilbrick  T  15:49, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Lifestyle & Culture
Dismayed that the link to modern beach volleyball in this section takes you to what is essentially an ad for volleyball 1 on 1, a private pay website. Karinagw (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Tighter setting standards
I disagree about setting standards being characterized as tighter. I think they are better characterized as different--tighter on double contacts but a bit more lenient on lifts. Mingjai (talk) 21:24, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

History
There are different dates given for when the sport began (1915 and 1920). I have no idea which is correct -- can someone clarify? WilliamWQuick (talk) 15:43, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

No list of prominent beach volleyball themes movies, novels, comics, etc.? ...Seriously?!
Was this present but deleted by some overzealous editor? Or just nonexistent, not ever? Wouldn't mind adding some stuff - just wanna make sure it won't get deleted right away by someone trigger-happy... I think it's necessary since there really is some awesome stuff out there, plus a lot of the people interested in beach volleyball got into it specifically because of how those stories inspired them. Because, dear teenage editors who might not know better - this stuff wasn't on TV and in the olympics like soccer or basketball for the previous generation. All that is pretty new. For older fans and players, you either hung around a beach and got pulled into it from wathcing... or you saw it in a movie and got curious and looked it up. It had no stars (or, rather, each court had its own), and the only widely-known "player" was whichever actor's character was last seen playing it in the most recent successful blockbuster (like Tom Cruise in "Top Gun" for the 80s, etc.). 208.127.70.219 (talk) 11:44, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Who is Natalie?
In the History section - after mentioning Volleyball Magazine, the article says, "first story had to do with natalie." I saw that this was copied from the Weebly article. I have no clue who or what natalie is. Any objections to removing it? Sturmavik (talk) 05:21, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

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Block touch
What is it? 104.153.40.58 (talk) 00:00, 1 August 2021 (UTC)