Talk:Bee/Archive 1

Should we open diseases as a separate article?
Good afternoon, John. You are right that the honeybee page was linked above. Probably should delete the redundant link. I don't like leaving the "Diseases of the Honeybee" as a dead link, though. I am becoming more and more fond of a separate and expanded article on Diseases of the Honeybee. Let's make your link real. Unfortunately, I don't think I know enough about all the diseases to put something together without risking the breaking of a copyright. Can/will you take a crack at it? Rossami 22:16 May 6, 2003 (UTC)

Linking to a definition
Good afternoon, John. You also added links to cell. When I clicked through it, I saw a number of definitions, none of which really seemed to apply to the cells in a beehive. When I checked the links to female and male, they were just definitions.

I see limited value to creating links to a definition rather than to a substantive article. What I remember of the Wikipedia rules seemed to reinforce that point. Frankly, when I need to check a definition, the freeware program Atomica works better than using Wikipedia to duplicate a dictionary. It's a philosophical point and if you feel strongly that the links add value, I'll concede. Rossami 22:25 May 6, 2003 (UTC)


 * I can see some possible value for male and female, especially if those articles might be improved in the future (though I must admit, I've been known to change links to reflect what's there at the moment, too), but yes, I could certainly live without those. As for cell, I figured that would be an issue while I was linking it, and I was thinking it might be best disambiguated somehow, even if that did leave it linked to a nonexistent page, but I wasn't sure how. Cell (honeybee)? Cell (honeycomb)? Cell (bee)? Etc. So I decided to just leave it at cell for the time being.
 * As for diseases of the honeybee (caps or not?), tracheal mites are about the only ones I'm familiar with, and that only from an apiarist's point of view (which basically amounts to "mites BAD!" ;), not a biologist's. So I couldn't do much there without considerable boning up. But leaving some nonexistent links isn't a bad thing, it encourages the creation of new articles, which can (almost) only be a good thing. :) -- John Owens 22:43 May 6, 2003 (UTC)

reversion
Anon User:66.28.223.150 deleted large sections of text without explanation and without moving the content to any other related page that I know about. Reverted pending explanation. Rossami 15:53, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

anecdote moved from the article page for now
This colony of bees in South Tampa, Florida took up residence in a bird house. I have observed bees in bird houses on three occations. As the colony grows it produces new queens and when space is limited the colony simply divides. A colony will divide many times in a year when the cavity they have nested in is small.  --Bare Foot Billy 03:21, Nov 21, 2004 (UTC)

Bee or Honey bee?
Either one article should cover all bees, or separate ones should cover honey bees, bumble bees, mason bees, etc. Since there is a separate article for bumble bees, this one should not be called simply bee. - erl - 216.19.218.15 19:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Reference for updating list of families
Bee Phylogeny at Cornell

GTBacchus 8 July 2005 20:47 (UTC)

Orchard mason bee
This was just created but I know nothing useful about the subject. Needs work. CambridgeBayWeather 11:18, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Buzz
I was quite surprised to find no mention of the buzzing of bees. It's quite a characteristic thing, and many people would be surprised that it's not the wings creating the sounds. violet/riga (t) 20:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * What does create the sound? Borb 12:25, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Bees in flight
It would be nice to have a section on the aerodynamics of bees in flight. On Sunday Image:Bee mid air.jpg is due to be the Picture of the day|Picture of the Day. However, at the moment I'm not too happy with the caption as it is a bit too general.

When I was at college, I recall hearing the adage that "aerodynamically, bees can't fly" and it seems to be one of those ideas that persists despite being completely untrue &mdash; not only can bees fly, but the aerodynamics of how they fly appears to have been pretty well understood for quite a while. There is a good summary of the problem on Straight Dope. More recently, I think that some research on Vortex streets has been directed towards the same issue (see for example the last external link there). -- Solipsist 09:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I also hope someone explain this topic, perhaps on something like Insect flight(as Bird flight). I just started to learn biomechanics of flight so I cannot help. All I can do now is to show some web pages; C.P. Ellington and others(papers on JEB) and F.O. Lehmann and others(papers on JEB). Though it seems they are focusing more on moths than bees... (no?) - Marsian / talk 12:00, 28 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Here's a fresh update: "Scientists Finally Figure Out How Bees Fly", LiveScience.com, January 9, 2005. Another triumph for scientific exploration and testing. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Please fix this
Cuckoo bees are bumblebee look-alikes that invade bumblebee nests and lay their eggs. The bumblebees raise the young as their own. Megachilid bees also have other megachilid Coelioxys bees whose young are placed into the already provisioned nests of these solitary bees. They destroy the host larvae and eat the food.--Gbleem 06:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Honey
The detiled information on Honey should not be shown in this article, it should be referenced to the stand-alone article.

Honey Bee population: help me with my math
The article states three facts:
 * Hives have a population of 40,000 bees or fewer.
 * The queen lays at least 1000 eggs per day to replenish casualties.
 * A honey bee lives three months, longer during the winter.

If a queen lays 1000 eggs per day; a bee lives three months; and bees die only of natural causes, a hive would have a maximum population of 90,000 bees, more than double the estimated peak hive population.

There are a few possible explanations to reconcile these numbers, at least one of which should be further explored to better capture a typical hive's lifecycle. They are, I presume, any combination of the following:
 * 'Daily casualties' includes many hazards that cause premature death.
 * The queen lays fewer than a thousand eggs per day on average.
 * There are periods during the summer when the population spikes.
 * The average bee life span is shorter than three months, and there are periods during the winter with little to no egg laying when bees tend to live closer to their three month maximum life span.

I defer to bee scholars. (That is, experts on bees, not educated bees.)

Wpjonathan 18:19, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * There is no simple math, as there is considerable variability. Queens lay at the maximum rate in spring during the buildup time, with the peak population occurring at the end of that time. The population may then drop drastically if the hive swarms, but good honeybee management aims to prevent swarming (analagous to having your calves run off to get lost in the woods). For honey production the beekeeper aims to have a very large population of adults and sealed brood at the beginning of the honeyflow, but of course no swarming. The queens can then cut back on egg laying, and indeed will be forced to cut back if cells are filled with nectar as quickly as new bees emerge from the cells. If queens are "shut down" by a honey flow, the beekeeper has not placed enough supers and the hive "plugs out" which is also poor beekeeping. At the end of the honeyflow the hive will consist of entirely old (and usually rather mean bees) and the hive population will crash severely. Better management has the queen merely slow down, keeping some young brood coming.


 * The cycles of queen laying and hive population are quite variable depending on the area, the race of bees, and whether honeyflows come normally or not. Drought, heavy rain, a cold spell, etc, can all have an effect. In some areas a serious honeyflow may only last for a couple weeks out of the entire year, and bees may have a time just maintaining their weight for the rest of the year.


 * For pollination contracts, beekeepers usually do not produce honey at the same time; indeed a honeyflow can be a problem during pollination. It is desired to have the bees with a pretty good population, but still early enough in the buildup period that there is a lot of open, unsealed brood. This means the bees will be compelled to seek pollen for brood feed, and they will be much more efficient as pollinators. A bee that deliberately is gathering pollen can be as much as ten times more efficient as a pollinator than one that is gathering nectar.


 * It is a good beekeeper who knows the cycles well, and plans for his productive periods, to make the most efficient use of the hives.


 * Queens also will greatly reduce laying whenever there is a pollen shortage, there is cooling temperature, or likely as the sun moves lower in the sky with autumn. In colder areas the queen will entirely shut down during early winter and the only bees that carry on are the adults that began the winter season. Winter bees are physiologically different than the bees from the rest of the year, so they do live quite a bit longer. Population may drop quite a bit during winter. The first heavy flight during a warm late winter day may leave a lot of these old bees dead on the snow in front of hives and inexperienced beekeepers may be frightened by the loss. However, usually these are bees that have gone through the winter and have been used up in getting a new cycle started. When they go out to fly, it is simply their final flight and they are dying outside the hive for sanitation. Pollinator 21:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

recent edits about Honeybee Queens
Anonymous user:69.31.222.151 recently added some text about honeybee queens. I've cleaned it up and corrected some factual errors. After doing all that, however, I'm no longer sure that this is the best article for this level of detail. Would it be better in honeybee? in queen (bee)? somewhere else?

By the way, I was adding several tidbits from memory. I don't have any of my source materials handy. Please correct it if I misremembered something. Rossami (talk) 20:12, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Laying workers
I restored the comment about honeybee workers sometimes laying infertile eggs. That phenomenon is well known and understood. I do wonder, however, if this page is getting too much detail about honeybees specifically and whether most of it ought to be siphoned off the the honeybee article. Rossami (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Cap vs Seal
What is the difference between cap and seal? (in the text about honeybee queens : "At pupation the workers cap or seal the cell.") Olango 22:34, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Same thing. The cell is closed in with beeswax. Not impervious to air or humidity, however. Pollinator 13:31, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Then shouldn't one of them be removed here? BTW: not impervious because mixed with pollen, unlike on honey stores capped with pure beeswax. Olango 01:16, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * No. They're synonyms when used in this sense.  But it's not an obvious synonym so it makes sense to use the words in a way that teach readers how the terms are used.  Not sure whay you meant with the second part of your comment (starting BTW:).  I have never read that the bees add pollen when capping brood chambers.  And neither is completely impervious to air or moisture.    Rossami (talk) 03:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I greatly appreciate your clarifying, as my native language is not English. Thank you and hope for help in the future :) As for capping brood cells, I meant it IS "not impervious", otherwise brood would suffocate, of course. That is the purpose of adding pollen to wax. I guess I should give some English-written source but I do not have any within reach. I thought this fact was not controversial and well known. It should be easy findable in any beekeeping textbook (as well as the phenomenon of laying workers :) Anyway, I will search by myself to cite references asap. Olango   (talk) 22:35, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Moved from page for discussion

 * Beard of Bees
 * The tradition of wearing a 'beard of bees' is one which has been popularised recently, possibly due to the revival in the fortunes of the Guinness Book of Records. Traditionally, the bee beard was formed by placing the queen honeybee in a box, and taping this box to the chin, but in recent years, a pheromone-laced disc is often used instead. The bees will swarm around the queen (or disc) and are shaped into a beard by a groomer. Bee beards can contain about half a million bees, and cover a body length of over a metre.

This belongs on honeybee, if anywhere. But the "half million" claim is pure hype. Pollinator 13:23, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Egg Machines
It would be helpful if someone could find out how it is that queens can lay so many eggs in a day--sometimes more than their own bodyweight, & add this info. What do they take in to be able to put out so much? And what is the size of an egg relative to her body? The Queen bee page would be the best place to add this content--Funhistory 01:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Varroa- First Aid bee
aren't there bees within som beefolks wich are like some doctor bees wich actually can remove these mites from bees. if some one knows about that but it here —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.183.227.70 (talk • contribs)

Varroa- formic acid
to kill these mites imkers can use formic acid(that stuff from the ants) evaporated in the hive  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.183.227.70 (talk • contribs)
 * I think you want to look at Diseases of the honeybee or perhaps Varroa destructor which already discusses this topic. Rossami (talk) 01:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Missing information
Shouldn't this article contain something (anything) about how most bees die when they sting? -- Run! 20:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No because that's not true of all types of bees. That is a trait mostly limited to the honeybees.  You should find the reference there.  Rossami (talk) 06:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)
 * There's nothing about it in the Honeybee article either. The only reference I can find is in this article, and the information is still very limited. -- Run!  09:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Sutiable photo?
Hi, I don't know much about bees nor am I really interested. However, a large number of bees are in my backyard collecting pollen from a tree. I took a photo of one of them. If you want to add it, it is here Image:Bee flying hamedog.JPG. There is a small thumb on the right too. If you add it to a page, please tell me on my talk page.-- HamedogTalk|@ 06:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Only likable insect?
this line: "annoying or disgusting pests, humans hold bees in high regard, possibly the only insect species to be considered such." seems wrong to me. Humans like butterflys, grasshoppers, ladybugs that I can think of. Dragonflies too. I'm definitely no expert on insects, and maybe all these have solid reasons for exclusion (perhaps grasshoppers aren't so popular in areas of the world that still suffer locust plagues) but it seems untrue and unencyclopedic. --FNV 18:34, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for External Link(s)
The below link has a lot of useful informatino that should be considered for inclusion into the external link list: Wolf 00:56, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * 

WikiProject Beekeeping
I've put this article in WikiProject Beekeeping to help organisation and improvement of articles. I'm just trying to rustle up interest - if anyone is interested in being a member, please just sign up on the main project page - you can do as much or little as you like! M a rtinp23 17:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

polarised light
I read on another article that polarised light may confuse bees, could we have some explanation why this is? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.67.202.168 (talk • contribs) 05:23, 22 November 2006

Bee Neurology
Anyone out there know what goes on deep inside a bees mind? if you do please post a section on its neural pathway. I'm doing a research project and it is on simple insects, if I end up doing it on bees, I'll post my research findings on here Paskari 16:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Virtually all such research is on Apis mellifera - accordingly, if you do wish to post any such information, please do so in (or linked to) the article for that species, and NOT to the "bee" article. Thanks. Dyanega 18:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Bee evolution
Would it be more accurate to say that bees and wasps share the same evolutionary link, instead of saying, "The oldest bee fossil, of the genus Melittosphex, is 100 million years old and supports the theory that bees evolved from wasps [1]"? BTW, I just checked the wasp site, noticing it has nothing about its evolution. Looks like it could use some work. Brian Pearson 01:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I think what the former phrase is saying is that wasps came first, whereas your proposed change suggests bees and wasps had a common ancestor. I support the former phrase, as per the new DNA findings.  Dionyseus 05:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Wasps are not a single lineage. "Wasp" is an artificial term for an artifical grouping - but the insects that bees evolved from were among the wasps. Dyanega 19:10, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Bees and drunkeness
I heard in a documentary that some bees become notorious drunks and are kept out of the hives by "bee bouncers" until they sober up. When the bees are repeat offenders, the bee bouncers might punish them by chewing their legs off. Comments?--Filll 16:54, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Bees and inebriation
Please take a look at my rough draft at User talk:Filll/beedrunk and give me your opinion.--Filll 21:28, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * With the help of User:Dyanega, I have now revised User talk:Filll/beedrunk and I am pondering publishing it on WP as Bees and intoxication or some such title. Comments?--Filll 23:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Disapperaring Bees
Heard on the news that these things are disappearing. If so, there will be WAR over FOOD. 205.240.146.224 02:18, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This matter has been on all of the news services. 205.240.146.224 05:47, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * See Pollinator decline and Colony Collapse Disorder. Pollinator 06:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I also came for this information and I think many people probably have. Someone with the information should add a section to the article on this subject, no one is going to stumble upon it at Pollinator decline. --71.71.221.107 21:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Then you are all looking in the wrong place. CCD does not affect "bees". It affects Western honey bees. This article HAS a link to CCD, and that is all that is appropriate: a link. It is like insisting that the page for mammal have a paragraph on Tourette's Syndrome, even though only one species of mammal (humans) has this disorder. Yes, it is true, human beings are mammals - but if something is specific to humans, it is NOT appropriate to devote space to it in the mammal article. There is likewise no reason to devote space in the bee article to something that only affects one species. If anything, it is even LESS appropriate, given that there are about three times as many bee species as there are mammal species. Dyanega 21:26, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I am reporting a shortage of bees in Sapulpa, OK. I am a truck farmer - I have blackberry plants in bloom - and I only saw one honey bee yesterday. We had one early bloom due to heat, lots of bumble bees around the wysteria and then a freeze. We need all the pollinators we can get. I am supposed to get two hives from a buddy of my husbands that he works with - which cannot be moved in rainy weather - husband should be contacting his bee buddy to help us out. Nation wide, lack of bees could lead to very high food prices - are bees alive in other countries? I am donna vogelpohl, sapulpa, ok - locally listed under husband's name - david.

Removal of Einstein quote
I've removed the following quote from the article:

"Albert Einstein: 'If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe then man would only have four years of life left. No more bees, no more pollination, no more plants, no more animals, no more man.'"

According to Walter Isaacson, the author of a biography of Albert Einstein called Einstein: His Life and Universe, "Einstein may have said something about bees, but I don't know about it if he did."

Henryhartley 13:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * And that proves what? One (American) biographer doesn't know about 1 Einstein's quote, and therefore it is false ???? His quote was cited in German journal Der Kritischer Agrarbericht by a German scientist. I guess Germans know better their celebrities. Are you sure your favorite biographer read all documents in German regarding Einstein?Lakinekaki 17:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I guess it depends on what you consider adequate sourcing for material. If one secondary source is enough for Wikipedia, then by all means, this quote should be restored.  Henryhartley 17:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just a note, you removed this material with reliable secondary source based on your unreliable blog Mark Turner's claim of correspondence with yet another secondary source. Lakinekaki 18:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I note the irony of your willingness to accept a quote supposedly attributed to Dr. Einstein for which no supporting documentation can be found over a direct quote I obtained from an expert on Dr. Einstein, biographer Walter Isaacson. My emailed response from Mr. Isaacson nevertheless constitutes more proof than anything that has thus far been discovered to support Einstein's alleged bee quote. I suggest you do more through research before questioning mine. --Jmturner 19:19, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It takes only little effort and will to find other sources. For example, I have no knowledge of German language, and to understand how little knowledge I have, I just learned that German language is actually called Deutsch by looking at other languages on the left of Bee page. So, I learned also that bee in Deutsch is called biene, and i did CTRL+f search in the page for albert, and found 1 which was not einstein. So I searched in google 'biene albert einstein', and, o my, thousands of sources! I easily found the whole quotation by finding some similarity between english and german, ups deutsch words (some genetics/molecular words are similar, so i guessed the topic of citation similar as above source): Wenn die Biene von der Erde verschwindet, dann hat der Mensch nur noch vier Jahre zu leben. Keine Bienen mehr, keine Bestäubung mehr, keine Pflanzen mehr, keine Tiere mehr, keine Menschen mehr. Albert Einstein


 * I also looked for more reputable sources, as first appeared to be a blog, and yes! I found it. url 'sounded' reputable, and it seems to be some university news source.


 * But I wanted to do one check. I used my favorite tool: Altavista Babelfish


 * Original quote:


 * Wenn die Biene von der Erde verschwindet, dann hat der Mensch nur noch vier Jahre zu leben; keine Bienen mehr, keine Bestäubung mehr, keine Pflanzen mehr, keine Tiere mehr, keine Menschen mehr


 * Translation:


 * If the bee of the earth disappears, then humans have only four years to live; no more bees, no more dusting, no more plants, no more animals, no more humans


 * is very similar to original quote in english as translated by human:


 * If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe then man would only have four years of life left. No more bees, no more pollination, no more plants, no more animals, no more man


 * And translation back to german gives again something similar, but not exact to the starting quote - indication that quote indeed originated in german, and not english that is translated to german (as there are many more english sites).


 * Wenn die Biene der Masse verschwindet, dann haben Menschen nur vier Jahre, zum zu leben; keine mehr Bienen, kein mehr Abstauben, keine mehr Betriebe, keine mehr Tiere, keine mehr Menschen


 * Without this altavista checks, it took me 2 minutes to find sources. I would really be happy to see other editors at least try  find sources for information they doubt, then just remove. Lakinekaki 18:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Snopes.com are taking an "untermined" stance on the quote, http://www.snopes.com/quotes/einstein/bees.asp Until it can be found in Einstein's writings and not just quoted it should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by User: (talk • contribs)


 * So, who has more weight, Snopes that provides only English references, or German University's article It seems as if I need to highlight here that Einstein was a German! Lakinekaki 07:02, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem with the German article is that it just tacks the quote on the end without sourcing where or when it was said. It is not unheard of reputable sources to be taken in by bad information or a mis-quote. The Snopes article is researched and finds no mention of the quote prior 1994 where it was quoted in French during protest by bee keepers.

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