Talk:Beef noodle soup

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 January 2022 and 18 March 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jaditol.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

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Proposal to Create Lanzhou Beef Noodles and Taiwanese Beef Noodles
As you can see in the following discussions, it is technically incorrect to allocate Hui people for the origin of "beef noodles". Beef noodles, simply means beef plus noodles. We can say that Hui people created the Lanzhou beef noodles, and the Taiwanese veterans created the Braised beef noodles, but neither are the inventor of ALL beef noodles. User: Ephemform and I propose to keep the Beef Noodle Soup article as a generic term (as it is done in Chinese wikipedia, stating: "beef noodles is a broad term for any soup/noodles that uses cooked beef as main ingredient for a dish, the origin of beef noodles is undefined and cannot be traced"), then create two new articles referring to Lanzhou Beef Noodles and Taiwanese Beef noodles. They have clear distinguishing elements, history, features and enough reference sources to form their own articles (as it is done in Chinese wikipedia). It will also mitigate the controversial discussion about Chinese/Taiwanese/Southeast Asian origin (there is NO origin).

If there are no notable oppositions, we will create these 2 articles, and change the introduction of this article to be used as a generic term only. Please let us know what you think.Jjj84206 (talk) 16:54, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Taiwanese vs Chinese Origin
I want to make it clear that there are two main types of Beef Noodles, one is called red braised (紅燒牛肉麵), while the other one is called Lanzhou Ramen/Islamic Beef Noodle Soup (清燉牛肉麵/蘭州拉麵/蘭州牛肉麵). The red-braised version is created by Taiwanese people while the Islamic beef noodles was created in Tang dynasty by the Hui people. Arguably, I'm not sure it should even be called "Chinese", or "Islamic". However, we'll say it's Chinese given that these people were under jurisdiction of the Tang dynasty emperor at that time (likely). In my opinion, the origin should really be "Hui people and Taiwan", not China.

Please do not, under any political reason, remove "China" or "Taiwan". The beef noodles soup is an Asian dish that has many varieties, and on Wikipedia, to remain neutral, we will include both China and Taiwan. Any vandalism edits will be reverted back to its current version. (talk) 25 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Hui people have always been under the jurisdiction of Chinese emperors as they are overwhelmingly Han Chinese who converted to Islam (very few of them actually have foreign origins). Both the red-braised and clear varieties of beef noodle soup were already listed in the article. You were the one who vandalized the article to fulfil your own political agendas such as intentionally putting "Taiwanese" in front of "Chinese" for no real reason. Oh, and next time sign your posts.Ephemform (talk) 11:47, 13 October 2018 (UTC)


 * the original version of the article excluded Taiwan as origin, which was inaccurate, it completed removed Taiwan and was vandalized. I put Taiwan in front of China since the mainstream beef noodles nowadays is the red-braised version. The varieties existed but like I said, these are totally different dishes. Either we create separate articles for it, or we include both versions as region of originality. You cannot say that Hui people "created" beef noodles just because they added beef into a noodles soup. Yes they created the clear beef noodles, but the red-braised beef noodles is a totally different dish that the Hui people didn't invent. It is not a derivative of the original soup. You can call something a varietal, if it's substantially the same. As a food enthusiast yourself, I'm sure you know that the red-braised and clear beef noodles taste completely different, with different meats, soup base, sauce, noodles type, vegetables added...etc. My suggestion is that we create two separate articles. We must be careful with the terms used. Beef noodles (牛肉麵) literally means beef + noodles. If I were to add beef + soup does that make it beef noodles? No. The broad clear-broth beef noodles refers to the specific recipe.


 * To give you another example, there's also California beef noodles but that doesn't mean that it is a separate dish that deserves to be called invention (since it's actually Taiwanese-style). Similarly, California roll sushi doesn't mean it's created in California (disputed). Hawaiian pizza is also not actually from Hawaii). Just because the Taiwanese call it beef noodles doesn't mean it's Chinese. If an American added beef into his soup that doesn't make it American beef noodles. We are referring to two recipes (clear-broth/red-braised) that are totally different. They are independent from one another. One does not lead to another. The red-braised beef noodles was not based off the clear-broth's recipe. It's not right to say that the Origin of beef noodles is China, and Taiwanese simply made modifications to it so it's a variety, this is an incorrect statement. Just because someone added beef to a soup doesn't make that "a variety of Hui people's noodle soup", therefore it is Chinese. In fact, way back before Hui people made this soup, there were likely people that added beef into soup. Does that mean Hui people copied them and made the clear-broth variety? So in fact, the Hui people didn't "create" beef noodles? Just because the Hui people version of noodles soup is the earliest documented and clearly-defined beef noodle soup, doesn't make them the inventor of all beef noodles. You can claim that Hui people is the inventor of the clear-broth version, just as it is correct to say that the Taiwanese people are the creator of braised version. But you cannot claim that Hui people made all "beef noodles" and that all versions of beef noodles stem from Hui. In that case, pho should be a Chinese dish too shouldn't it? It has beef and it has rice noodles and invented in the 1900s (after the Hui people made beef noodles). So pho is somehow a version of "beef noodles"?


 * Once again, I propose retaining this article as Lanzhou Ramen/Clear-Broth Beef Noodles, while creating a separate "red-braised beef noodles". I believe this solution could mitigate the argument of China/Taiwan and reflect historical accuracy/Wikipedia neutrality. Jjj84206 (talk) 17:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Actually, I just studied the Chinese Beef Noodles Wikipedia page. It seems like they adopt the solution I propose above. They have a page 牛肉麵 (beef noodles). The article says: "牛肉麵是泛指各種以燉煮過的牛肉為主要配料的湯麵食，其根源難以追溯" (which means: beef noodles is a broad term for any soup/noodles that uses cooked beef as main ingredient for a dish, the origin of beef noodles is undefined and cannot be traced). Then they have 2 separate pages created respectively for 台灣牛肉麵 (Taiwanese Beef Noodles) and 蘭州牛肉麵 (Clear Broth Beef Noodles), they also included pho in the "beef noodles" page, and link to 越南牛肉河粉. We should do the same. Jjj84206 (talk) 17:34, 14 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Your previous edits had formatting errors and you are definitely not neutral yourself. Your profile itself says: "I am a very patriotic person. I recognize the Republic of China as the rightful government of China. That means, Taiwan, Macau, Hong Kong and other territories all are considered part of the Republic of China. If that confuses you, then consider China part of Taiwan." which is proof of your inherent political bias. The edits included your personal opinions such as stating "that these two terms should not be used interchangeably" (we already have a segment which says they are different) and you have just started now that the Taiwanese version is more "mainstream" than the Lanzhou version (based on what?). If there is no proven notability then "Chinese" would have gone in front of "Taiwanese" anyway as things would be listed in alphabetical order. You also called the Lanzhou version "ramen" which the Japanese cuisine editors (and some Korean) have stated on other articles that this is inappropriate usage. Otherwise, I think the article looks fine now.Ephemform (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2018 (UTC)


 * that part of my profile has since been deleted. I was young and that no longer reflects my belief. I don't know why you would go back to my deleted history just to prove that you think I'm politically biased. What's the point. Politics view is subjective and to many people, you could be the biased one. You seem really angered by that statement which like I say, no longer reflects what I believe (hence it was deleted). I apologize if you were infuriated by that comment since I think we have the same political viewpoint. For your reference, I believe in the one china policy and 1992 consensus. One China, each side interprets its own China. This is the official understanding that the PRC government approves and the most neutral point of view. Lanzhou "ramen" - I've heard the name would anger a lot of local Lanzhou people, according to my Chinese friends. However, I call it that way because most people don't know what Lanzhou beef noodles is. In my country, all the restaurants call it "Lanzhou Ramen", I used the name because I thought it'd be a easier term for people to understand. Notice that in my previous edits I call it Lanzhou Ramen/Lanzhou Beef Noodles/Clear Broth Noodles. I do understand that they mean the same thing and the fact that ramen is not the right term for it. I want to let you know, I do understand the difference, but people just call it more often as "Lanzhou Ramen" so I used the name. If you go to the Chinese wikipedia, this is what it says: "蘭州牛肉麵，常在蘭州以外被謬作蘭州拉麵". Even in China, many places incorrectly call it Lanzhou Ramen. Despite the term not 100% correct, I don't believe that's really an issue since you obviously understand what I am referring to. Hawaiian pizza is not even Hawaiian, are you going to call it otherwise (like Pineapple pizza)? I hope this clears up any misunderstanding we have.


 * I suggest we create separate articles for Lanzhou Beef Noodles and Taiwanese beef noodles. I hope you read my explanation above that it's inaccurate to say the Chinese or Taiwanese invented the broad term "beef noodles". Beef noodles is a general term that simply means beef + soup/noodles. We can't say that the origin of beef noodles is Hui people or Taiwanese veterans. I invite you to help me create these two articles and make Wikipedia a better source for the general public.Jjj84206 (talk) 15:56, 15 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Just you let you know I didn't go through your "deleted history" to find out about your political views, it was right on your page at the time I viewed it - but anyway this is getting too personal. That sounds like a good idea but food articles are always a touchy subject so I'd like to hear if other editors would agree and we would need more book references from scholars in particular.Ephemform (talk) 21:17, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

European beef noodle soups
I'm pretty sure beef noodle soups are not a uniquely asian phenomenon. Beef soup with egg noodles is not at all an uncommon dish and probably has at least a century's long history. It would be nice if someone could research this and add to the article. OliAtlason (talk) 04:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This might be an issue of semantics; I think they are referring to the dish which is called "Beef Noodle Soup," popular in Taiwanese cuisine, I don't think this is an article on all soups that include noodles and beef. Otherwise there would be nearly endless variations, especially the ever-popular Pho from Vietnam... Tcxspears (talk) 17:10, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Difference of opinion on the part about puting it in the boiling water for one minute.
You could instead put the raw beef in cold water and then bring the water and the beef into a boil. Then throw out the water, use a different pot or clean the pot and remember to rinse the beef in cold water then, follow the other instrustions. The reason for this is to remove the blood AND some of the stench of the meat. You should do this to all meat product when you are cooking something without strong spices to cover up that stench. Well, thats my opinion, of course, if that stench is what you are looking for then don't do it. Some people call that the "taste" of the meat. If you never tried then taste the differece ~ espcially with goat meat. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.155.107.61 (talk) 23:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC).

On a side note
Don't use any high quality beef for this noodle because of the long boiling time of the meat, it doesn't matter which part you use, all will be tender. In fact poor quality beef with many toughparts might even taste better using this method. For this reason this could even be called peasant food (no offense intended)

A hint on the soy sauce in this soup
The soy sauce in this soup is Dark soy sauce and is not put there for taste(use salt). The reason is to color the meat dark since most of time the beef used is of low quality (therefore it dosen't look edible if it were light) Also, sometime ginger is used abusively to cover up the stench of the poor quality meat.

A caution to the credibility of the historical contents
The main ingredients (or could be the only ingredients)are water, beef ,and noodles. This noodle soup usually uses low quality beef and could be serve with no spices and no beef therefore it could be made easily by peasants and serve to peasents of low rank even in ancient time for a rather long duration. And since it is so easily made and it is food for low rank peasents and slaves it would not enter into historical documents readily after invention.


 * No offense to you, but the "peasant food" story is more or less an over-simplification. Firsdt of all, beef is not part of the traditional Chinese diet, until the beggining of the last century, it was eaten by Hui people (beef noodle was invented by them as well.) Secondly, peasants don't eat meat period. If there are any meat, it's likely to be pork, not beef (cattles are valueble work animals, it's not eaten. Besides, there are very few places in China where cattles can be grazed.) Thirdly, it's mainly comsumed by urban people (especially students and workers.) I have yet seen one rural family eating it as their "traditional meal". -130.126.75.181 (talk) 04:31, 24 February 2008 (UTC)cecikierk

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Image needs replacement
Hello all...

An image used in the article, specifically Image:Instant beef noodle soup.jpg, has a little bit of a licensing issue. The image was uploaded back when the rules around image uploading were less restrictive. It is presumed that the uploader was willing to license the picture under the GFDL license but was not clear in that regard. As such, the image, while not at risk of deletion, is likely not clearly licensed to allow for free use in any future use of this article. If anyone has an image that can replace this, or can go take one and upload it, it would be best.

You have your mission, take your camera and start clicking.--Jordan 1972 (talk) 22:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Deleted paragraph
"When the Kuomintang retreated to Taiwan at the end of the Chinese Civil War, refugees from mainland China including Chinese Muslims introduced the beef noodles to the Taiwanese. Despite the traditional Taiwanese aversion to eating beef (due to affection to water buffaloes which pull the plough in rice paddies), and that virtually no wheat (a main ingredient of noodles) is produced in the island, the dish is available on Taiwan, including the instant noodles, food pouch, and microwave meal versions. Certain sources argue that the modern form of the Chinese beef noodles was actually invented in Gangshan Village, Kaohsiung County by Republic of China Air Force personnel who fled to Taiwan from Sichuan. Despite the southern Taiwanese roots of the modern beef noodles, the City of Taipei styles itself as the 'World Capital of Beef Noodles' and has recently started to host an annual Taipei Beef Noodles Festival." Kaihsu (talk) 15:08, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

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Evaluation
Thanks for all editors' contributions. The lead section covers the basic information about beef noodle soup by providing plenty of external information that readers will be able to click on. It might be better if the information is listed explicitly to make readers easier to read. I would like to know more about the noodle style. Jaditol (talk) 21:08, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is currently the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 January 2022 and 18 March 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jaditol.

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Beef Noodle Soup Wiki Page Update
Hi all, hope you all enjoying the updated information. Feel free to make any edit or change if you have any concerns. Jaditol (talk) 22:10, 11 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your contribution. I am generally okay with the changes you made. You made substantial contribution to Lanzhou Beef Noodle, not much on the Taiwanese side. You also added one sentence implying that Taiwanese Beef Noodle soup was "brought to Taiwan from China", despite all sources said otherwise. Please be careful and do not add in personal opinion. Secondly, I would recommend you creating a separate article on Lanzhou Beef Noodle Soup. I've always suggested to create this and keep this page as a general "Beef Noodle Soup" article (which encompasses other soups with beef in it from around asia). Right now, you're putting an undue weight on Lanzhou beef noodle soup and the dish itself, like Taiwanese beef noodle soup, is notable enough to warrant its own article, this has already been done for multiple languages including Chinese, Korean, and Japanese Wikipedia, see here for an example: zh:蘭州牛肉麵. Final thing, please ensure you add references AFTER punctuation, not before. I have reverted your edit for now, I'm not against your content. I see you're a student editor, hopefully creating a new article would be a good experience for you. Thanks.Kazuha1029 (talk) 22:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)