Talk:Beijing Subway/Archive 1

Expansion
Am putting in text which previously appeared in the Future Projections part here -- I've found a new map which details even more subway expansions. In case someone needs to revert to the previous lengths and info, they can grab it right here:


 * Line 5, 27.6km long, will extend from Tiantongyuan North to Songjiazhuang. Construction started in December 2002. This is Beijing's first north-south line and runs through some important parts of the city centre.
 * Line 10, 24.55km long, will extend from Wanliu to Jinsong. Construction started in March 2004.
 * Line 4, 28.16km long, will extend from Longbeicun to Majialou.
 * Olympic branch line, 5.91km long, will extend from Xiongmaohuandao (Panda Roundabout) to Senlin Gongyuan (Forest Park), and will serve the new Olympic Park area.
 * Yizhuang Light Rail, 19.5km long, will serve the Yizhuang area to the southeast.
 * Line 9, 18.3km long. The first phase will extend from Baishiqiao to Beijing West Railway Station.

--DF08 12:25, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Technical Specs: Most of the rolling stocks were built by the Changchun Car Company. The oldest rolling stocks are the blue/white cars used in Line 2. They will be phased out gradually. Gauge: standard gauge 1435mm Electrification: 750V DC by third rail. It's better to have a third rail picture, which can be easily spotted in Line 13. Sinolonghai 18:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Two mysterious stations: the western terminus of Line 1 Pingguoyuan (with a code of 0103) is not the end of Line 1. There are still two stations west of Pingguoyuan, i.e., 0101 & 0102. The two stations are closed due to unknown reason. There are suggestions to reopen these stations. Sinolonghai 18:15, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hours of Operation?
is it possible to add the first/last train times for each of the lines?

Map of the Beijing Subway
The updated English pinyin map (not to scale) is missing the Dongsi and Dengshikou stations on Line 5. Given the volume of foreign visitors to Beijing this summer for the Olympic Games, it would be nice to make the wiki English/pinyin subway map more accurate and user friendly. Suggestions: (1) make the map closer to scale. Currently, not only are distances inaccurate but relative alignments of the stations are also misleading. (2) introduce other landmark markers to help viewer with orientation (e.g. Tiananmen Square, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th ring roads, perhaps in gray to illustrate how far the lines go out). (3) consider adding Chinese characters to station names to make map truly bilingual. This way, a foreign visitor can ask for directions locally by pointing to a print-out. --User:apleycabot 2-16-08.

Map of Planned Subway Lines
The current map of planned subway lines is outdated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.27.111.121 (talk) 22:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Will someone PLEASE tell us where we can get a copy of the OFFICIAL Beijing Subway map which is accurate as to what will or will not be open for the Olmpic games? BeijingOlympic website and Beijing Subway both hopeless!


 * -) Mapmark 4/4/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mapmark (talk • contribs) 10:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Line 3
Simple but perplexing question: why is there no Line 3? Jpatokal (talk) 07:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At some point a line 3 was in the plans. The latest proposal for line 3 has been merged into the trajectory for line 6 http://en.beijingology.com/index.php?title=Subway_Line_6 213.246.227.244 (talk) 05:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Explanation of July 17, 2008 Revisions
Recently, a contributor added a number of new lines to the list of lines planned for construction. Most of these new lines are still in the very tentative phases of planning and are not scheduled to be built within the next 5-7 years. I have moved these more tentatively planned lines to another table. The new information do not have citation support, and appear to be adapted from other websites with user-generated content (e.g. Baidu's article on the Beijing Subway). I have corrected some of the inaccuracies in the new information (e.g. such as the eastern terminus of Line 7 is Baiziwan, not the Beijing Coking Factory) but cannot confirm much of the remainder of the information (e.g. the scheduled construction dates listed for Lines 11, 16, 17). It is important for contributors to post accurate and reliable information. Speculative plans that are subject to change are not helpful to readers.

ContinentalAve (talk)ContinentalAve 07-17-08

Reasons for removal of two sections on June 13, 2008.

(Introduction to the Challenges Section)
The following passage was removed because the message is not clear:

"All Beijing subway lines are designed entirely according subway and not light rail standards. Currently standardization of the names are a challenge, as the current system provides for ample confusion amongst users new to Beijing's Subway."

Is there a conflict between the subway and light rail standards? What standards is it referring to (voltage, track gauge)? Why is this a problem? And what's the confusing about the station names? This passage is simply not clear. There's also no citation. The following passage was removed because it is incomplete and imprecise:

(Tourist Destinations from Open Lines)
"LINE 1: Tiananmen East and Tiananmen West stops - Tiananmen Square, Forbidden City

LINE 1: Guomao stop - Panjiayuan Ethnic Market (check hours of operation)

LINES 2 & 13 (junction): Xizhimen stop- Beijing Zoo

LINE 13: Wudaoko stop - The Summer Palace* & Beijing Botanical Gardens*

LINE 5: Tiantan East Gate stop - Temple of Heaven & Beijing Amusement Park

LINE 5: Datunlu East stop - Olympic Park (not yet open to visitors)**

LINE 5: Dongsi stop - Beihai Park*

Perhaps the best advice to finding a tourist destination is to use this guide to get close--then once you arrive outside the destination stop, attempt to take a taxi or ask for directions. The opening of some new lines for the 2008 Olympics will change the closest stop for the attractions that are double-starred. The opening of other lines will affect those destinations that are single-starred. For more information about Beijing tourism, see http://www.unesco.org/ext/field/beijing/whc/chinawhl.htm or http://wikitravel.org/en/Beijing ."

The idea of listing the points of interest near each of Beijing's subway stations is a good one and worthy of further development. But it is unhelpful in the current form. First the list is incomplete, and if completed would be very long -- adding extra lines to an article that's already very long. If the attractions are going to be listed in accordance with the individual lines, the list of attractions along each line (perhaps in tabular form) could be added to the articles for the lines themselves. Secondly, it's not helpful to the reader planning a trip to see these asterisks that note the future possibility of another station opening closer to a particular destination. The whole idea of Wikipedia is to provide up-to-date information. As future lines open, the list should be adjusted accordingly, but not before. That's why we have separate sections for lines in operation, lines about to come into operation and lines planned for the future. Lastly, some of the information provided are plain misleading. Panjiayuan is quite a distance from the Guomao subway stop.

ContinentalAve 06-13-08

Removal of categorization
Hi, I had added a category (Siemens Transportation Systems Projects), for as Beijing Line 10s signaling system is supplied by Siemens AG. However this category was removed, unfortunately without stating a reason. In my opinion the supply of equipment worth in general several million EURO should be worth a categorization, however I understand that only one line supplied might not qualify. Can I have a reason for deletion, otherwise I would like to open the addition for discussion and would like to get general feedback on that. --Azchael (talk) 01:27, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Dear Azchael, I did not remove the categorization but I did notice your contribution regarding the Siemens technology and appreciate your willingness to contribute. Generally, we welcome information about the Beijing Subway that's informative, insightful or interesting to readers. Telling readers that Line 10 is equipped with "Trainguard MT and ETCS Level 1 technology" is not really helpful since most readers (myself included) have no idea what this technology is and, importantly, how it is supposed to make the subway better. Please consider elaborating more about this technology and whether it may be implemented more broadly across the Beijing subway. Otherwise, we may need to move the reference to Line 10 or remove it altogether b/c it currently reads like an trade advertisement for Siemens. ContinentalAve (talk) 16:19, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi ContinentalAve, I get your point. Propably need to add some information on the ETCS technology with a link. Actually I hadnt seen the link to the Beijing Line 10 as an independent page (my mistake). Therefore the categorization has been placed there. Makes more sense over there. Regarding the technology I noticed that most subway pages (not only Chinese ones, but also Indian, German, etc.) mention the rolling stock equipment, its manufacturer and sometimes additionally the gauge of the rail, but other technological facts, such as the used electrification equipment, the signaling system (electronic interlocking or a relay-based one), the communication system (GSM-R, etc.) are usually not mentioned as they are also not so publically advertised. Though the train or metro is usually the most noticable part of the subway, the other technologies are also noticed: is there a cable above the tracks or is there a third rail at the tracks (which powers the train)? Are there still drivers in the cab or is a driverless train? Is it ETCS Level 1 or 2? It's difficult to find good sources on the net for all the data, so I add my sources when I add something, mostly from Siemens at present, as I could find something there, which sounds reliable. --Azchael (talk) 03:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Dear Azchael, I agree that we need more information on the technological and engineering aspects of the subway, especially rolling stock. Any contributions would be most welcome!ContinentalAve (talk) 07:00, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The necessity of listing the Transfer Stations
I noticed the addition of the list of subway stations with transfers to one or more lines, and reordered the list in alphabetical order. I wonder, however, if the list of such stations is useful to readers in the first place. We have striven to keep the article concise (under 30K in length) but also informative. The article already makes clear that transfers exist in the Beijing Subway and are free to riders (except the Airport Line). The map already clearly shows the transfer points. The table of currently operational lines lists each line's interconnections with other lines. The article for the Shanghai Subway does have such a list of transfer stations, but articles for the New York, Hong Kong, London, Paris, Moscow, Madrid, Washington, D.C., Boston, Tokyo, Seoul Subways do not have such a list. What do others think about the usefulness of having such a list? ContinentalAve (talk) 19:07, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The removal of the list of Transfer Stations
I removed the list of transfer stations because in my opinion, it is of limited use to readers. Readers can readily discern where lines intersect and transfers can be made from the excellent subway map already featured prominently in the article. A reader trying to go from Pt. A to Pt. B can simply follow the lines on the bilingual map to figure out where to transfer. Furthermore, articles for each of the lines contain line maps that show transfer points and the lines to which transfers can be made. I cannot see any use for such a list other than to maintain a running list of transfer stations, which will grow longer and more unwieldy over time. If anyone feels that the list is critical to the article, please enlighten.

Transfer Stations

demotion of AFC system suppliers
I demoted the list of AFC system suppliers to a footnote because, again in my opinion, the information is of limited use to the average reader. Why is it significant that Thales is the maker of the fare collection system for Line 1 and not Samsung? This information in list form matters little, unless the audience is in the AFC procurement business. Is there some other relevance to this information? Are Samsung machines better, less expensive, or in some way significant compared to Nippon Signal? If so, please explain.

ContinentalAve (talk) 06:57, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Who designed it?
Does anyone know what company did the Chinese government hired to build the subway? it would be good information for the article. Supaman89 (talk) 02:12, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Several companies (more than ten), all national companies. Sorry I didn't log in. User:Hat600(talk)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.73.1.225 (talk) 12:40, 2 February 2009 (UTC)