Talk:Belfast/Archive 3

Biggest city in...
Contrary to the edit summaries in the article history, i can see no actual consensus for or against the inclusion of "It is the 15th largest city in the United Kingdom". The discussion simply died with no further progress.

The fact it has been in the article for nearly 3 months now, means it's too late to argue a case of WP:BRD for its removal. It is now part of the stable version of the article and its removal is now the B part of BRD, meaning we should now discuss it with the IP's removal of it reverted according to WP:BRD.

I've some questions to ask/points to make:


 * 1) What reason is there to compare it to the rest of the island but not within its own state (UK)?
 * 2) Is it not biased to include one but not the other?
 * 3) Belfast is a regional captial within the United Kingdom and Cardiff, Edinburgh, and London all state what size they are (though in different terms such as metropolitan area for London).
 * 4) As a regional capital within the UK it is very relevant and informative to state Belfast's size in relation to other cities within the UK.

Mabuska (talk) 17:45, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Sneaking it in against consensus does not make consensus. Talk:Belfast. 86.185.17.74 (talk) 17:53, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no consensus for or against it in the first place for anyone to sneak it in or out. All the previous discussion argued over was a vote tally, and well Wikipedia is not a democracy. A vote tally doesn't eqaute to consensus as that policy makes clear. Also as it has been there for so long, BRD no longer can be considered to be in effect in regards to its inclusion, whilst your removal is very recent meaning BRD is in effect in regards to that.


 * Rather than instigate an edit war please leave the article to the stable version, and discuss the matter and state your reasons why you believe it should be removed. Answer my four points above even as they are very valid. Collaboration and discussion is the way forward. Mabuska (talk) 19:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Q1: To have a statement saying the anything is 15th in any list in the opening paragraph of any article is just ridiculous. Pure trivia.
 * Q2: No.
 * Q3: Mabuska to answer question 3 I will just quote your own words from another discussion: "Trying to compare to other articles is to introduce a red herring."
 * Q4: Is not a question but a statement of your POV. Bjmullan (talk) 19:25, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Point taken on the red herring, however to introduce another red herring, would you also agree that it's ridiculous to state that the island Ireland is the 20th biggest island in the world in its lede seeing as it states that?
 * This issue will no doubt descend into the partisan discussion the last one went into, so to nip that possiblity in the bud, i suggest we get non-partisan opinion on the matter via a RfC. Mabuska (talk) 20:09, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Belfast's ranking among other British cities, should be mentioned in the article. Last time I checked, Belfast was within the United Kingdom. GoodDay (talk) 20:22, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

There are less populous British cities than Belfast which have a size comparison in the lede (Newcastle upon Tyne is an example). It isn't offensive, non-partisan or discriminatory, it is a statistical fact and it reads perfectly fine. I really don't see why there is such a strong movement to exclude the statement from the article, other than some form of bias.&#9733;K E Y S &#9733; (talk) 20:34, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * So how large is Newcastle compared to other cities, seen as you brought it up, don't see it mentioned in the lede and you are trying to compare them. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:16, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's in the lead, Mo: The city is the sixteenth most populous city in England... JonC Talk 21:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * That is population, not what I asked, if Keys is comparing this article with it, then how populous is Belfast? Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:24, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Population is what we're discussing here. We're hardly measuring cities by width, are we? Belfast's population is in the infobox. JonC Talk 21:27, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * We were till you changed it, largest is not the same as most populous. Mo ainm ~Talk  21:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I self-reverted, as I'm limited to 1 revert a week on Troubles-related articles. Anyway, I'm fairly sure everyone here is discussing population, not area. JonC Talk 21:34, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't have called that a revert you added info. Mo ainm  ~Talk  21:41, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Could have been looked upon as undoing your edit. Rather not risk it. JonC Talk 21:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Fifteenth isn't a very high ranking but if the rankings ar given at Edinburgh, Cardiff and Newcastle then it should be given at Belfast too. However, it's all-Ireland ranking should be given first. ~Asarlaí 21:35, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * No matter what its UK ranking is, the ranking should be mentioned. GoodDay (talk) 21:42, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Why, Asarlaí? Think it makes more sense to compare to other cities in the same country rather than island. London, Edinburgh and Cardiff don't have their size relative to other cities in Great Britain. JonC Talk 21:59, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Becauz being the second-biggest city in Ireland is surely more noteworthy than being fifteenth-biggest in the UK. ~Asarlaí 22:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair point. JonC Talk 22:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * What he said. Put both in and be done with it. I don't care which comes first either. --<font color="#006600" face="Papyrus">Eamonnca1 <font color="#CC6600" face="Baskerville">TALK 23:56, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It's a matter of perspective which is more important - comparing it to the rest of the island it is on or the country that it actually belongs to. Personally country should be before an island that spans two different states.
 * Also the arguement on wording is absolutely pointless if anyone here actually followed the link in the Newcastle article: "The city is the sixteenth most populous city in the United Kingdom" where does it take you? Yep the exact same article that lists Belfast as 15th and is clearly titled: List of largest United Kingdom settlements by population - so Belfast and Newcastle, despite the different wording are on about the same thing - population not area size. The article did erroneously state "England" despite linking to an article about the UK which has it as 16th so i fixed that.
 * On the recently added citation tag - the List of largest United Kingdom settlements by population article is based upon sources, and by linking the statement to that article, good faith should be assumed on it. Otherwise it is purely point-scoring. Mabuska (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC) Source found. Mabuska (talk) 21:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just to state i reworded the sentence to state "most populous city" as List of largest United Kingdom settlements by population has it listed as 15th, so we can safely assume that is what is being discussed in this article. A little clarity will do no harm. If anyone objects i can self revert it. Mabuska (talk) 21:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Just realised that JonChapple already added the link then removed it? Don't understand why seeing as it is where we are getting the 15th biggest city stat from. A wikilink definately helps as it provides the list of cities it's being compared too.
 * And in response to Asarlai on is 15th notable - Belfast is the captial of a part of the United Kingdom. I think its very notable and relevant to compare its size to the rest of the United Kingdom to put it into some form of perspective. Mabuska (talk) 21:11, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed it for the reason stated above – I'm on Troubles probation and as it was undoing Mo ainm's edit it could be seen as a revert. Better safe than sorry. <font color="#004225">JonC <font color="#F28500">Talk 21:25, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed the wikilink myself anyways simply because the linked too article was compiled with some links that are now dead and can't be easily verified to see if it contradicts the source i found for Belfast's rank seeing as the article and the source i found are both based on the 2001 census. The source i found is also more accurate than the Wiki article for the population of Glasgow is the same in my source as it is according to Falkirk Council. Leeds is also stated as 3rd in the source i found with a population that matches that according to Leeds City Council], which also contradicts that article. So the source i found can be judged as being reliable - unlike the Wiki article. Mabuska (talk) 21:31, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Coordinate error
The following coordinate fixes are needed for Belfast

Longitude: 5.93°W

—17:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)70.70.153.85 (talk)
 * ✅. Someone had replaced the hyphen in the negative longitude coordinate with an en dash, making it impossible for GeoHack to parse it. Deor (talk) 19:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Ulster Scots name part 2
There seems to be no resolution to the discussion that went on from April to October last year. Perhaps I might add a comment and a suggestion: Scolaire (talk) 18:48, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) The use of the name "Belfast" is based on the fact that "Belfast" is used in North/South Ministerial Council reports. But the fact that a report written in Ulster Scots uses the English name does not make that an Ulster Scots name. One of the cited reports refers to "the Taoiseach, Brian Cowen"; the other refers to "An Taoiseach Brian Cowen". I don't imagine it is suggested that "Taoiseach" or "An Taoiseach" are Ulster Scots words.
 * 2) There is a Name section in the article. I suggest adding a single sentence/paragraph saying "In Ulster Scots the name of the city is Bilfawst (refs) or Bilfaust (refs), although "Belfast" is also used (refs)." This would allow us to take the refs (including the ref for the Irish name) out of the infobox, which would then say simply, "Scots: Bilfaust or Bilfawst; Irish: Béal Feirste".
 * A good idea, and one I'm inclined to support. However, there are a ton of other Ulster towns and villages with an English name in the Scots field of the infobox for much the same reason (i.e. Dungannon, Armagh, most of the county pages and Ulster itself), so this will set a precedent for similar changes to those. <font color="#004225">JonC <font color="#F28500">Talk 19:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * And so it should! Dún Laoghaire doesn't have a second (Irish or English) name, neither does Llanelli (Welsh or English). If an Irish or Welsh name isn't replicated, there's no reason an English one should be. Scolaire (talk) 00:32, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Scolaire, it is possible for a name to be spelt the same in two languages (especially two so closely related as Scots and English). Most of theze 'Ulster Scots' names hav only sprung-up in the past few years and ar found in only a handful of 'official translations'. Belfast, Antrim, Armagh and Dungannon ar all Scots names that'v been uzed by Scots writers for hundreds of years. ~Asarlaí 01:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Here's how I see it: if the name is uzed in a document written wholly in Ulscots, then it should be in the article as a name uzed in Ulscots. We shouldn't assume to know the writers' intentions – i.e. we shouldn't assume that they didn't know the Ulscots name or forgot to put it in. Belfast is an English name and a Scots name, just like Doire is an Irish name and a Gaidhlig name. Also, An Taoiseach is an official title and is uzed in English too, so it isn't a good example.
 * However, I agree with shifting the references to the "Name" section so that the infobox will simply say Scots: Bilfawst, Bilfaust or Belfast; Irish: Béal Feirste. ~Asarlaí 19:43, 19 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree we shouldn't assume to know the writers' intentions - that would be original research. However, the fact is that neither report anywhere states that "Belfast" is the Scots name, so to say that it is is also original research. The argument "the report is in Scots, and the report says 'Belfast', therefore 'Belfast' is Scots" is synthesis, which is not allowed under WP:NOR. Scolaire (talk) 23:43, 19 January 2012 (UTC)
 * The reports don't say "Bilfawst is Scots; Belfast isn't Scots". So surely it's also synthesis and original research to argue "the report is in Scots and doesn't uze Belfast, therfor Belfast isn't Scots"? Why not go with what we know to be true: Bilfawst and Belfast ar both uzed in Ulster Scots. ~Asarlaí 01:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, that makes no sense at all! Nobody is arguing "the report is in Scots and doesn't uze Belfast, therfor Belfast isn't Scots." Nobody is even arguing that "Belfast" isn't Scots. I'm only saying that before you say in the article that "Belfast" is Scots, you have to have reliable sources that say that "Belfast" is Scots. The Council reports don't say that. As for "why not go with what we know to be true?" - for the moment at least WP:V says that the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.
 * By the way, what's with the "uze"? Is that a Scots word, or is English not your first language? Scolaire (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd be highly surprised if his first language was not English going by their massive edit history on this Wiki. Though those mispellings have only cropped up recently as far as i'm aware. Anyways if he was using Scots it'd be spelt Uise, i.e. Th' report is in Scots 'n' does nae uise Belfast, thare fore Belfast isnae Scots. or something similar. On a source that Belfast is Scots for Belfast - this online dictionary] states it is. Funnily enough it provides an answer for Belfast but not London/Cardiff/Dublin. Mabuska (talk) 11:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Try the English to Scots 'translation'. 84.134.178.174 (talk) 22:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe Asarlaí is an advocate for English language spelling reform, hence his deliberate use of "uze", "ar" and other simplified or more logical spellings. <font color="#004225">JonC <font color="#F28500">Talk 00:55, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I can ageee to Scolaires idea. Uncontroversial reasonable aesthetic change. Mabuska (talk) 20:08, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

As a wild guess, could the "fast" come from Danish Vikings? Fast, or fart, is found in Danish town names.203.213.61.41 (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Capital
Is Belfast a capital or a regional capital...? <font face="Georgia"> Basket Feudalist 15:23, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * It depends on what your definition of the countries/parts/whatever of the UK are. If they're countries in their own right, part of a larger union or sovereign state, then they're national capitals; however, if you consider the four to be constituent parts but not countries it's a regional capital. <font color="#004225">— <font color="#004225">Jon C. <font color="#F28500">ॐ 15:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Yo, YCALAM. This is the talk page. Go! <font color="#004225">— <font color="#004225">Jon C. <font color="#F28500">ॐ 09:08, 22 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Yo. Hellooooo-! <font face="Georgia"> Basket Feudalist 15:31, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Jon C: Article Owner lol RAAAAAASSSS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.225.241 (talk) 10:01, 5 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, do you know wot a TP is for!!! <font face="Georgia"> Basket Feudalist 11:04, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I do. Your proposed change, you get your consensus. Ball's in your court. <font color="#004225">— <font color="#004225">Jon C. <font color="#F28500">ॐ 11:07, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Here we are. I sez: regional and administrative city. Guutting if you think someone else's flag should be flying there of course. <font face="Georgia"> Basket Feudalist 11:10, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I sez: pseudo-"national", non-sovereign capital on the same level as Edinburgh and Cardiff. Don't get the last bit, but maybe Ah'm juist a wee bit slow. <font color="#004225">— <font color="#004225">Jon C. <font color="#F28500">ॐ 12:19, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * No problem.

'Belfast is the non-sovereign capital of Northern Ireland' has a certain flow to it. <font face="Georgia"> Basket Feudalist 12:21, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think Northern Ireland is a region though, so we cannot describe Belfast as a regional capital. What's wrong with just calling it the capital? I don't think this article is the best place to explain the complexities of the constitutional situation. Interested readers can click through to Northern Ireland where they will find it all explained. --John (talk) 12:35, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Problem is, there they might get bogged down in that whole question of whether it exists at all. 12:43, 16 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm confident it exists. I don't see consensus here to ad "non-sovereign" to the description. I also can't see any reason to add this. --John (talk) 16:53, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

It is commonly referred to as the capital of Northern Ireland. That is all that is needed. Regardless of whether Northern Ireland is a state, statelet, region, province or whatever they all have an administrative center that is called a capital. Belfast is capital of Northern Ireland; London is capital of England and also of the United Kingdom. What confusion is there? Mabuska (talk) 23:55, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Nice Userboxes. <font face="Georgia"> Basket Feudalist 07:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup
A Wikimeet is proposed for Northern Ireland in the next few months. If you have never been to one, this is an opportunity to meet other Wikipedians in an informal atmosphere for Wiki and non-Wiki related chat and for beer or food if you like. Most take place on a Sunday afternoon in a suitable pub but other days and locations can also work. Experienced and new contributors are all welcome. This event is definitely not restricted just to discussion of Northern Ireland topics. Please add your suggestions for place and date to the discussion page here: Proposed Northern Ireland Wiki Meetup. Philafrenzy (talk) 22:05, 17 June 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a reminder to please add any views you may have to the project page linked above. Thanks. Philafrenzy (talk) 08:40, 16 July 2013 (UTC)