Talk:Belgian Shepherd/Archive 1

Temperament
The link listed http://www.bsdaofgb.co.uk/bsdfaq.htm was not just amusing but also remarkably right on for the dog my family had and brings up memories as well as a few minor issues. Most articles on this kind notes that prior experience is highly recommended for the dog owner, as well as how they interact with children. The article, I feel, does not make this sufficiently clear. As nearly all of my my family's dog's (Tervueren) siblings had to be put down due to unhappy incidents, I hope this can be added in.


 * Any well-documented info (not just one person's or one breeder's experience) can be added to the article. I'm not familiar with ANY tervs (and I encounter quite a few in dog agility) who've had this kind of problem and they're not noted for it in my experience.


 * I could not find hard documentation that can pass as encyclopedic on a general scale. I know the breeded changed their stock using dogs from abroad. Still, how wide spread this issue is I do not know. Breeders are unlikely to advertise that more than 9 of 10 dogs had to be put down due to unfortunate incidents. IS any statistics openly available that we could search?

The Tervuerens I have seen have all had a stange body language in that they tilt their heads sideways occationally, as if uncertain. I have never seen that in other races but as I am no expert (and Google was not helpful here) I wonder if this is an unique aspect of Tervuerens or BSDs.


 * I'm around a lot of dogs of many breeds, and Tervs indeed seem to do the head tilt much more than other breeds. All dogs do it occasionally, but that does seem to be a Terv quirk in my experience. I haven't seen enough of the other BSDs to know whether they do it, too.  Interesting question.  Elf | Talk 8 July 2005 05:59 (UTC)


 * I claim no wide experience in dogs but have never seen this in other dogs, only in Tervuerens. What does the tilt mean? I never found an explanation. We are then at least two that have seen this phenomenon, would it be acceptable to put in a paragraph about this behavious? An explanation might give leads usable to Google on.


 * All dogs do it, usually when they're trying to figure something out--seems often to be noise or sound-related, so I've heard it explained as the dog trying to get a different angle on the sound, which makes sense to me. At least one Terv I know seems to do it to people a lot ("What ARE you trying to tell me, anyway, and is there a treat associated iwthit?") I might ask around the local dog community for info on this & the problem you've reported with terv breeding. Elf | Talk 23:05, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I am doing this right, but I will try Antheat | Talk

With regard to the bad temperament issue, it is becoming prevalent, most breeders do not want to broadcast it as they will not have people buying their dogs. The reason I know this and how you can indeed track it, is by the United Belgian Shepherd Dogs Belgian Shepherd Dog Temperament Tests which are located at: http://www.malinut.com/character/results.shtml. I have two dogs whose parents failed the tests. (I found out after the fact, too late to take them back). One has a health condition (thyroid at 4 months old) and he is very high strung. The other has problems with aggression. This can be tracked historically. I will have both of these dogs tested once they reach the appropriate age and I already know they will fail the gun shot portion and stranger approach as both are noise sensitive and do not suffer strangers to approach, even though extensively socialised, something which a dog with a stable temperament would not do. Again, this is not hearsay, these results are historically trackable. A lot of breeders will not test their dogs because they know they will fail.

Belgian Shepherds, with the exception of the Malinois, (most of which come from strong working lines and so far, many have managed to escape from the effects of show bred only lines) are gaining a reputation of being 'spooky' or 'sharp' which is not at all the temperament which they were bred to have. A working breed that herds and guards has to have a very stable, strong temperament. There is a group of breeders located in europe and one in california who are breeding working lines back into the tervuren specifically to try to deal with the bad temperament issue. These dogs have good, stable temperaments, fabulous working ability (the trackable results speak for themselves) and are good with children, cats, dogs, adults, etc. In fact, they are the epitome of the Belgian Shepherd temperament. They may not be as pretty as the show line dogs, but I'd rather have good temperament and less coat any day of the week. I've been involved with Belgian Shepherds, Tervurens specifically for 15+ years and I started in South Africa where I had a dog who could do it all and had the true Belgian Temperament, he was as rock solid a dog as any person could hope for in any situation.Antheat | Talk

Lossage by user Pharaoh Hound
On 2007-03-19 a link to what I consider a rather apt cartoon was removed by user Pharaoh Hound. Having had a Tervueren I consider the cartoon a humorous but also accurate depiction of the temperament and one that adds constructively to the understanding for the reader. I am therefore canvassing the regulars here for inclusion. Thank you. --15:42, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

!!! Please, correct this article as soon as possible !!!
I am 26yrs old, live in Belgium and I 'm training my first Mechelaar (=Flemish for Malinois) for about 2yrs now and my dad trains Mechelaars (Malinois) for almost 30yrs to compete in the Belgian Ring (the oldest and one of the hardest defense dogsport in the world!!!), more specifically the NVBK (Nationaal Verbond voor Belgische Kynologen). We were astonished when we read this article. We can not identify any of our Mechelaars (Malinois) with the characteristics discribed in this article. Especially about temprament and training method's. Is this some kind of joke? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zwanwust007 (talk • contribs) 16:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

--Zwanwust007 20:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Temperament
Note: "Most Belgian owners know that rote or pattern-based training is not the ideal for Belgians. Nor is drilling a particular activity going to prove successful. If a Belgian does something right 3 times in a row, he does not see the sense in doing it the fourth time. (This is one example, and this article is full of this nonsense!!!) On the contrary, Belgian shepherds are known for doing things over and over again, with much pleasure, to please his owner. It' s a working dog!!!! We also had a rottweiler, that's a dog who doesn't do something 3 times in a row, and I speak from my experience!!! If a Malinois doesn't do something more than 3 times right in a row, I don't think he had such a great succes in all branches of dogsport. And especially in Ringsport (NVBK, IPO, Mondioring, French ring,...) and his succes in police and army forces around the world!!! It is probably because they doesn't listen very well...what a joke. It looks to me that this article is written by a rather subjective person, who maybe had a bad experience as a result of inadequate and incompetent training methods. From my experience with Malinois, I can say that it's a very easy-trainable dog, always ready to please his owner with a wagging tail. If you have enough space, this can become a family his best friend!!! But if you want to train this dog for your protection, or to compete in ringsport, it is highly recommended to go to a dog school. Not for the dog, but for the owner, who has to learn how to train his dog correctly to avoid dangerous situations from incompetent and haughty people who think they know everything better. For example, if you want to learn your dog not to be afraid of gunshots, you are not gonna take your dog at one day and fire some shots near him. Then I can understand that your dog can over-react for some things...hello!!! And I have read such things for more than one time!!! And those people are asking why their dog is afraid of certain things!!! I hope that people don't try to place this dog in a bad light out of jealousy because this beautifull dog is so succesfull around the world.

Please write this article on a more objective base and maybe I don't erase as much I'm going to do.

From a Belgian Malinois trainer, member of the NVBK.

--Zwanwust007 12:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Deleted Temperment and Training
After months of no citiations being given I've finally deleted Temperment and Training sections.

In addition I later found that the sections were word-for-word copied from another site so needs to be written regardless of citiations. (http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Belgian_Shepherd_Dog_-_Temperament/id/4843988 is where it was taken from for temperment see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content for policy or just read this:

"Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text that is used verbatim must be attributed with quotation marks or other standard notation, such as block quotes. Any alterations must be clearly marked, i.e. [brackets] for added text, an ellipsis (...) for removed text, and emphasis noted after the quotation as "(emphasis added)" or "(emphasis in the original)". Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited."

Avalik (talk) 07:00, 29 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you scroll to the bottom of that link, it states that the text is from here. They are the ones copying :) However, I am in total agreement that this section needs to be rewritten. I'll try to get a start on that soon.


 * Angela.norton (talk) 04:44, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: Combine all four varieties into this article?
As the country of origin's registry considers Groenendael, Laekenois, Malinois and Tervuren to be the same breed, differing only in color and coat type, I think one article covering all four of them makes sense. Each variety is supposed to have the same underlying structure and temperament. And you can find large variations in those when you compare working and show lines in the same variety.

Angela.norton (talk) 04:56, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I would agree here ... the four pages are rather small, nearly a stub, and seem to mostly have the exact same words from this article. I think it'd be a good idea to merge them. Avalik (talk) 22:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions for Appearance and Temperment ... and spelling
Temperment; I did a bit of editing today ... the temperment section seems to be back to its old self though now with some weasel and peacock words to make it seem appropriate, but I'm just going to leave it this time and mark it instead, seeing as deleting it didn't help as it was just re-added, so tagging it heavily will hopefully get across to readers that it isn't reliable.

If you read the rest of the talk page here, you can see most people don't seem to agree with the temperment section (I deleted it, but since it's back again ...).

Issues with the temperment section:

1. Weasel and peacock words and phrases.

2. The source is unreliable. A relatively unknown dog fancy club.

3. Only a single source - use more than one source.

4. Again, copyright issues like last time. It's NOT okay to copy and paste, people.

While it's okay to take bits here and there, the WHOLE temperment section was a big copy and paste. Even though it was short ... really, c'mon. I'll copy and paste (haha irony) what I said last time for you to read:

In addition I later found that the sections were word-for-word copied from another site so needs to be written regardless of citiations. (http://www.nbsdc.org/bsd.htm is where it was taken from for temperment see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content for policy or just read this:

"Brief quotations of copyrighted text may be used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea. Copyrighted text that is used verbatim must be attributed with quotation marks or other standard notation, such as block quotes. Any alterations must be clearly marked, i.e. [brackets] for added text, an ellipsis (...) for removed text, and emphasis noted after the quotation as "(emphasis added)" or "(emphasis in the original)". Extensive quotation of copyrighted text is prohibited."

I didn't realize it was just a copy and paste, and I edited it a little bit so it doesn't exactly fit the original anymore unknowningly, but there you are. The whole section is a copy and paste.

It needs to be redone. Again. That, or deleted and not brought back. If there is no reliable sources on it to be found, then don't write a section on it.

Appearance; As for appearance, here's some suggestions that can be expanded on: dewclaws. Do they have them? If so, are they commonly surgically removed? Their eye colour, and shape even, can be talked about. Their ears, are they cropped? If so, is that common? If so, is it common in all countries, particularly of interest is it common in country of origin? Talk about that. Is their coat rough or smooth? Do they have any common weird stuff going on with their toes, such as syndactyly or polydactylism? If they have a unique gait, which they might because of the German Shepherd..ness ... talk about that maybe. Their teeth have no mention ... perhaps a quick mention on that.

Spelling; Lastly for spelling ... I notice that there seems to be different English spellings going on. Like colour and color, and -ise and -ize, etc in the article. I changed one of the colour's to color's as there were more colors in the article ... but I probably missed some of the spellings, and they are probably mixed up a bit, so I think we need to agree on which English spelling we're going to use, mark it here with a tag template and then edit the article so it is unified in the same English.

Wikipedia spelling < little bit of info there. It would be nice to choose the one that is most associated with Belgium ... I have no idea which one that would be, but the Belgium article says "British English" so I'd say British English is the one to go with.

Avalik (talk) 22:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Loss by overl eager archiving
A bot wiped large sections of this talk page, issues that were not resolved. A link to what was deleted is not immediately visible, the find function in my browser does not locate it either. I suggest undoing the lossage and that there is a long way to go before the talk page is too big to handle. --20:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.166.21.149 (talk)
 * Hi, I have restored the sections that were removed by the bot. I also turned off the automatic archiving since it was not discussed.  Which sections do you feel need more discussion?Coaster1983 (talk) 23:10, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:German Shepherd Dog - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 09:20, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Temperament again: It would be useful to prospective owners to know more before they buy/adopt
I came to this page looking for information about possible unique temperament and behaviors of this breed. I'm the accidental owner of a Tervuren (I thought she was a long hair German Shepherd Dog when I adopted her). Her behaviors are different than the other shepherds I've had - she is stronger, very vocal, and has a very forceful nose poke and headbutt, and the energy of a Border Collie, without the obsessive focus. Sort of a Border Collie trapped in a GSD body. I researched this to see which of her behaviors were characteristic of the breed and which were idiosyncratic. I didn't find much info beyond what's on the main page, except that the Wales police have harnessed the use of that headbutt, which made US nightly news. I found some blog accounts of faux dog aggression - Tervs that bark frenetically at other dogs, but do great off leash, even with a huge number of strange dogs (as in dog daycare). Again, I think there are some breed differences folks should know about. Smm201`0 (talk) 17:31, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Read some more, and there seem to be many descriptions of posturing behavior without damage (vocalization, air snaps, teeth chattering), and forceful poking and headbutts, all likely useful in herding. No real RSes though.Smm201`0 (talk) 22:28, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

This talk page is for discussions about how to improve the article. For information about caring for dogs, it's best to use sites such as Amazon ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 21:04, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

Link on Tervuren is not correct.
The link on Tervuren should lead to Tervuren_dog and not Tervuren (town). Page is locked however. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.173.220.107 (talk)
 * Fixed, thanks. SagaciousPhil  - Chat 08:24, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

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Training
The article claims that "Belgian shepherds like to please, and can over-react badly to "negative" (punishment or deterrence based) training, so they should as a rule be clicker- or reward-trained only." Does anyone have any proof that belgians normally do best with reward-only training? I ask since I know of many Malinois being successfully used in police departments, and these departments definately do not use reward-only clicker training. They use lots of reward (prey drive) when training the dogs, but they definately don't use reward-only training, the dogs are corrected quite regularly. I doubt they would be doing this if "reward-only" training was more suitable for their K9s. If noone can come up with anything in support of the article, I think it would be more accurate if the term "reward-training only" was changed to "reward-based training". Rachel24 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.195.86.36 (talk) 00:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2017
Podden (talk) 10:16, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. jd22292 (Jalen D. Folf) (talk) 14:21, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Possible merger with variety pages
During some recent contributions to the Tervuren dog page it has occurred to me that perhaps all four Belgian Shepherd varieties/breeds should me merged back into this page. The reasons for thinking this are:
 * All four are in pretty terrible states (something I tried to rectify with Tervuren), the majority are either sourced to national kennel clubs or breed clubs or are just not sourced at all (Malinois is the possible exception).
 * The majority of sources treat the four varieties together.
 * All four have almost identical histories, they were considered one before 1891 when (whilst still considered one) they were divided into three (four from 1897) varieties based upon coat types.
 * The four are practically identical except coat types with breed standards reflecting this, further many kennel clubs (including the Fédération Cynologique Internationale) regard them as one with different coats.

I think it would be possible to turn this page into a well constructed B-class or higher page that is highly informative if they were merged here, whilst currently five start class articles exist (in spite of what the TPs may claim).

I am keen to gauge thoughts prior to potentially formally proposing a merger. Cavalryman (talk) 04:35, 30 September 2020 (UTC).


 * I can't imagine that merging them would help with maintenance. In the USA at least, all four are separate breeds and, if you know anything about American breeding, that means that they are four vastly different dogs at this point. Especially the Malinois which has taken on a life of its own. The Belgian Shepherd (that black one) has a fair following in the USA, and the other two are pretty rare. Just as the Malinois has become one of the top contenders in Schutzhund/IPO/IGP, the other three are infrequently seen in the sport. So while we see all four "varieties" lumped under one breed name at FCI, even in Europe (in the working dog world) they are not considered equal. Even the FCI standard says "These four varieties are judged separately" and "Any matings between varieties are forbidden", so I think even though the FCI calls them "varieties" and you think the only difference is their coat color and length, they really are considered separate breeds. I would keep the articles separate (with Belgian Shepherd article being the fifth). Normal Op (talk) 07:11, 30 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I have noticed the 5 "Belgian Shepherd" articles. I also noticed the good job done in merging the various "German shepherd" variants under the article "German shepherd", where these were warranted. The Belgian Shepherd article is only 16kb in size, tiny when compared with Labrador Retriever etc. If any of the 4 other articles cannot meet Notability, then I believe there is room for the removal of unreliable content from them and their merging under this article with their own separate headings and the current articles redirecting to them. We will need to state that the 4 variants are treated as separate breeds in the US. Conversely, should there be enough material to establish notability, I have no concerns with the articles remaining, or later being spun out on their own from Belgian shepherd when better sourcing is discovered. William Harris (talk) 22:36, 30 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Just as a resource, I found these two books that have some really interesting details (and photos and charts) of the history of the breed.  Normal Op (talk) 01:53, 1 October 2020 (UTC)


 * More food for thought: Since you mentioned that the Belg Shep is considered separate breeds ONLY in the USA, I thought to do a little research. I enquired of someone who was active in Schutzhund in Germany. He said that throughout Europe the relationship between the four Belgians are considered more of a "type" than a "breed. The "Belgian Shepherd type" is spoken of in the same way we speak of "shepherd type", "hound type", "pointer type", "pit bull type", or "spaniel type". I was told that these four dogs are treated like four separate breeds rather than one-breed-multiple-coats. He said the Malinois is the only one that competes with any frequency in Schutzhund and is the top competing dog breed, neck and neck with German Shepherds (which the sport was invented for). He said that for every Groenendael, Laekenois, and Tervuren you see participating in Schutzhund, you will see a hundred Malinois; that Malinois is the dog that has always been "the biting machine" for over a hundred years, and the other three are known for their herding behaviors and compete in herding sports. He said that though within the German Shepherd breed, a single litter might contain short-haired and long-haired pups, you don't breed "Belgian Shepherds" and get mixed "coat" litters. They don't compete together in dog shows, and cross-breeding between the four Belgians is forbidden... if you want to register your dog with FCI. He said he's heard they are working towards separating them into four separate breeds. Normal Op (talk) 00:05, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * It sounds similar to the poodle (as discussed earlier in the year) in that the kennel clubs all take different viewpoints. The above OR is interesting but not reflected in any sources.
 * This history section could be copied and pasted into all five articles (with a slight reordering of breed/variety names) and this description section could also be replicated with allowances for different coat types and colours. The sources I have seen either discussed them all as a group or, if discussed separately drew heavily on them being a group. When writing those sections linked I had to refer to the various entries (when discussed separately) to build a more complete picture. There just isn't a great deal separating them.
 * The current Belgian Shepherd section is an absolute mess, creating a controversy with nothing but WP:SYNTH, but a neat little section could easily be written describing how different kennel clubs classify them differently. I don't think any information would be lost in a merger and in fact a more complete picture would be presented to the reader. Cavalryman (talk) 01:14, 2 October 2020 (UTC).