Talk:Belvedere College

Terry Wogan
Someone keeps adding Terry Wogan as a past pupil. Odd since he was born and raised in Limerick and there is no boarding in Belvedere. 00:50, 7 February — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.12.120.91 (talk) 2006 (UTC)

Not really, he went to Belvedere in 5th and 6th year. Have a look in his auto biography. Got out of limerick as soon as he could! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.213.8 (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Terry Wogan went to Belvedere.

he was a star of the belvedere debating team — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjss3 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

In an RTE documentary he talks about his time in Belvedere and how he came to be there — Preceding unsigned comment added by Financefactz (talk • contribs) 12:45, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

"Only In God"
I attended Belvedere from 1982 to 1991 and never heard this particular song. When did it become popular? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.72.122.95 (talk) 12:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I attended Belvedere from 1998 to 2004 and it was one of the first Rugby related songs I heard Takeshi316 21:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

It was popularised by the class of 1995 during a senior cup campaign. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DMcAlinden (talk • contribs) 21:49, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand that to be the case - think it was the cheerleaders of 1995 - Fionan Murphy, Steve Murray and Hugh Brennan among others... The page appears to reflect that it was begun in 1997 which I think is incorrect. Perhaps someone could clarify? 217.206.192.162 (talk) 12:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In fact I can remember it being requested at the Graduation of Rhetoric 1996 - there was a brief delay before the ceremony and Lennie asked that the song be sung to "keep the proceedings moving along"... it's popularity then as an anthem of sorts was becoming quite apparent... 217.206.192.162 (talk) 12:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It was also sang at the graduation mass of 1997 by the students and had become a bit more official at that stage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.43.40.68 (talk) 12:50, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

The first time that I heard it sung in a rugby context was by the IIAs in 1995; after we had been knocked out of the cup we were having a sing-song on the way home. During this we sang it to Ger Conran in a pretty spontaneous way. I am pretty sure that this is the origin of using it as a rugby anthem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.188.24.230 (talk) 19:05, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Dave O'Hanlon wrote an arrangement of this song to be sung at liturgical events throughout the school year. This is the most recognized version of the song in the school. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.141.97.211 (talk) 13:19, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

I recall that David O'Hanlon ('Dead-on Dave') was the instigator and promoter of the use of the song as a religious hymn - it later came into use at rugby matches in the late 90s' early 2000's — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.43.40.68 (talk) 12:49, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

Alumni
Names keep on getting added here which may be notable but which do not have Wiki entries, nor any citations of notability given. I have removed the following : John Gerard Campbell; Paul Robert Duffy; Fionan Murphy; David Ryan; Karl Mullen - on the basis that there is nothing cited for them, and none of them have a Wikipedia entry of their own. The only one I've heard of is Karl Mullen. I appreciate that a presence on Wikipedia should not be a minimum requirement, but when such a presence is lacking, I think there should be some kind of indication of notability by another means. --Wastekiller 12:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Karl Mullen is cited in "Belvedere's Rugby Heroes". He is one of the most famous rugby internationals from Belvedere.

Karl Mullen - captained the Lions tour 1950. Captained Ireland's Grand Slam winning team 1948. Tt 225 22:57, 6 February 2007 (UTC)tt225

Am I right in thinking that the eponymous Arthur Cox, the founding partner of that firm, attended Belvedere? If so, perhaps this is suitable for inclusion? DMcAlinden (talk) 10:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Belvedere Classification
This section has been removed by user Mjss3. I thought it was useful, neutral information, although it might have been a bit more concise. Any thoughts? Curtains99 10:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

useful to whom? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjss3 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The class naming system is a notable feature of the school. Please sign your comments by adding 4 tildes at the end of your comments ( ~ ). Curtains99 13:46, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Change this heading to School Academic Structure (to match the article heading)? Also, the classes used to be named by a different convention: Senior school had four streams e.g. 1G1, 1GA, 1G2, 1G2A. The Junior school had the class names Elements Knights & Warriors; Rudiments Lions & Tigers; 3G Explorers, Pilots & Scouts; and 2G Falcons, Eagles and Hawks. Probably too trivial to include? Tt 225 07:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)tt225

Yes I think the class names changed a bit over the years - I was going to put in all of the various changes and the dates they changed but that might be a bit too much detail. Streaming hasn't been in place since at least the late 80's from looking at the Belvederian.

Up until circa 2008 the below system was in place but this changed


 * 3rd Grammar (5th Class)
 * 2nd Grammar (6th Class)
 * 1st Grammar (1st Year)
 * 3rd Syntax (2nd Year)
 * 2nd Syntax (3rd Year)
 * 1st Syntax (4th Year)
 * Poetry (5th Year)
 * Rhetoric (6th Year)

The below system is currently in place from c. 2008 onwards (the details are taken from the website for this part)


 * 1st Year – Elements, the basics of the language
 * 2nd Year – Rudiments, enhancing the basics
 * 3rd Year – Grammar, the grammar of the language
 * 4th Year – Syntax, the word order of the language
 * 5th Year – Poetry, the literature of the language
 * 6th Year – Rhetoric, public speaking

First paragraph too long and unstructured
I have tagged the article for cleanup. Curtains99 10:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's one line. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mjss3 (talk • contribs) 11:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * You're right. I meant to say the lead section before the contents pane is too long. Have a look at WP:IA for guidelines or any featured article to see that lead-in sections should not be this long. I will restore the cleanup tag. Curtains99 13:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

One of Ireland's oldest schools
Anyone got a source for this? Curtains99 10:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi St. Kieran's College Kilkenny is the oldest Catholic school in Ireland 1782, there are three other of these schools ( Diocesan Seminary Schools ) next and, the fifth oldest and oldest non seminarian school is Clongowes founded by Fr. Peter Kenny S.J. on Holy Thursday 5th May 1814. Some of the Protestant Schools are hundred of years old some as far back as the 15th Century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Willko10 (talk • contribs) 00:56, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Belvedere Crest
Someone has deleted the Belvedere Crest and motto from the top right hand corner of the page. Is there any way to recover it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.45.167 (talk) 21:55, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This image can be used: [[Image:NonFreeImageRemoved.svg]] I don't know why it was deleted. It's not great quality and would probably be best to scan in a high resolution version. Curtains99 14:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Belvedere Science
Is there anything that can be added to the science paragraph? Should we include the names of the students? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.71.38.46 (talk) 19:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

The article as a whole is pretty good, but when I read it the names of the two students who won the scholarships stuck out like a sore thumb as utter trivia. I don't know the two guys in question and wish them every success, but if their 5 week scholarship is notable enough for inclusion, then by the same token every winner of every medal (Duggan medal, Dempsey medal etc.), every student who has represented the school in international competition, the school captain for 150 years, the lead role in the opera and the play, the captain of JCT and SCT etc., and pupils who won "proper" scholarships to US universities, i.e. scholarships covering their full college careers, all have a claim for inclusion. Those of a certain generation might be interested to know I won a merit card in Elements Knights 30 years ago, but Wikipedia ain't the place to tell them. Tt 225 07:43, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your contribution, I've taken it into account and I've created a permanent facility to include the recipients names. Referencing your intention to consider including the winners of the Duggan medal etc., their merits should be taken on a case by case basis and not thrown in with a discussion about an article on Science in Belvedere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.58.73 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 11 February 2007  (UTC)


 * I think you missed my point - winners of a transition year prize simply aren't notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. People visiting the page don't have any interest in it.  Instead of creating a permanent facility to keep your name on the page why not truly consider whether the encyclopedia entry for the school is going to be enhanced by an ever-increasing list of trivia. Tt 225 01:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but its not my name. I was asked by the headmaster to ameliorate the section about science as part of Belvedere's policy on promoting the life sciences (including mentioning names!). May I ask who are you to determine Belvedere's priorities? Or indeed, to call them "trivia"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.58.73 (talk) 20:06, 15 February 2007 (UTC).


 * I suppose I should deal with the provocative question first, without becoming overly provoked.  You seem to suggest that this encyclopedia article should be  platform for Belvedere's policies, and that authorship of the article should be confined to those who have had the imprimatur of the headmaster, or at least those who edit the page to his (or your) satisfaction.  But Wikipedia is not (among other things) a soapbox WP:NOT


 * So perhaps we can agree that editing the page does not equate to speaking on behalf of the school? I believe I have sufficient association with and knowledge of Belvedere to make a positive contribution to this page in the spirit of neutrality.  In contrast, WP:COI suggests that your edits of this section are more suited to, say, the Belvederian annual than to this forum: "In keeping with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy, edits where there is a clear conflict of interest, or where such a conflict might reasonably be inferred from the tone of the edit and the proximity of the editor to the subject, are strongly discouraged. Of special concern are organizational conflicts of interest."  The footnote goes on to clarify that organisational conflicts: "include, but are not limited to, those posed by edits made by: public relations departments of corporations; or of other public or private for-profit or not-for-profit organizations; or by professional editors paid by said organizations to edit a Wikipedia article with the sole intent of improving that organization's image."  Nuff said? And perhaps worth mentioning to the next person who tries to "suggest" to you that you should edit the article with a particular agenda in mind?


 * Now, conflict aside, I can see that you have put far more effort into the page than most others, and I do appreciate that. But when somebody else edits the page and they clearly aren't out to vandalise it or to defame the school in some way, please take their contribution in good faith and recognise that it isn't your property or that of the school: WP:OWN


 * My points above remain valid - the article correctly recognises the individuals connected with the school who are notable enough for such recognition in the alumni section. Winners of prizes in a school are recognised in the school's yearbook or in the local newspaper, not in the Encyclopedia Britannica or Wikipedia.  My edit leaves the relevant information that the scholarship exists, and leaves the external link to the newsletter where the two names can be found, should anyone want to investigate further. Tt 225 01:47, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Page Editing
Is there someone in the school who continually removes the sections about the school class naming? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.43.89.58 (talk) 22:00, 25 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Please stop changing 'Moron' to 'Moran'. Thanks, Curtains99 20:06, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Jesuit Ethos
This section is a bit rambling. I would suggest that the charitable fundraisers could be placed in their own section. Sure, they stem from the school ethos, but a separate section would classify them as an aspect of school life, like science, sport etc. Tt 225 08:04, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

Sports
Blackboard Jungle ... hardly a sport, and should it be listed at all unless a trivia section is added? Tt 225 08:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Why are you so obsessed by the word "trivia"? Winning Blackboard Jungle is one of Belvedere's major achievements and yes, quizzes are considered an intellectual sport just as board games like chess are. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.71.58.73 (talk) 20:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Dear me, the hysteria. I'm not obsessed, just giving a point of view.  This is a discussion page after all.  You have persuaded me that a quiz can fall within a wide definition of "sport".  However, "major achievement" is overstating things a little IMO. Tt 225 09:40, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources for notable alumni
Each alumnus needs a source, proving he went to Belvedere. Unsourced alumni will be deleted. 193.1.74.97 12:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * While it was a pain reinserting the alumni after they were all deleted, it's hard to disagree that they do need sources, and that whoever deleted them was correct. That being the case, some of the alumni are given sources from Wikipedia itself, which is kind of pointless ... Wikipedia is not a reliable third-party source as required by policy WP:Verify. It is all too easy for an article about Joe Bloggs to say he went to Belvedere and for the article about Belvedere to list Joe as a past pupil, and for each to cite each other as verification.  Hence the  tags. Tt 225 21:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Another Past Pupil; including Wiki page entry and Belvo Union 'find a belvederian' entry also - Edward Martyn 1870

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Martyn

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.91.135.100 (talk) 07:16, 2 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Citations are needed to show that someone attended this school. The citations need to be from a reputable source (not Wikipedia itself). Someone has addressed the problem of no citations being given for the majority of the past pupils by removing the citations needed tags. I've reinserted them. A long time ago (i.e. in 2007, see above), the same issue arose and an editor deleted almost the whole list. That's not ideal, but if a citation can't be given then a name ought not to remain on the list. Tt 225 (talk) 22:11, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, having reinstated the citation needed tags, I've then put my money where my mouth is. I've gone through all the names in the "Arts" section and found reputable (I think) citations to show each attended Belvedere, apart from two. Liam O'Flaherty is rumoured to have gone to several schools, but I could find nothing concrete to show he actually went to Belvedere. Tim Pat Coogan probably did but probably doesn't advertise the fact. If someone has his autobiography that'll probably clear it up, but I've left a citation needed tag there nonetheless. Tt 225 (talk) 23:09, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Athletics
Is there anyone who can list the atletics achievements of the school? I notice that it is not represented well on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.190.139.180 (talk) 08:46, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Alumni
Could someone please confirm that James MacNeill (2nd Govenor-General of the Irish Free State) was a past pupil. I know for a fact he was president of the PPU, so am assuming he was a Past Pupil. Also would anyone know who was the First President of the PPU, cant remember the name, though it was SIR something, possibly worthy of the Alumni list. Also am i correct in saying Richard Bruton went to Belvo, i know John went to Clongowes, but think Richard went to belvo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.139.8 (talk) 23:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Richard was belvo junior but clongowes senior so both apply —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.101.183.167 (talk) 15:33, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

The Blessed Columba Marmion
Can someone add Columba Marmion to the famous past pupils section. In fact Im surprised there is no wikipedia article about him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.226.1.229 (talk) 14:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism
Ugh, someone vandalised info box... I'd fix it myself but I fail at wikipedia editing :( --213.202.189.234 (talk) 21:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Assessment
As a part of the Schools Project trying to pare down the unassessed articles, I am assessing this article for that project.

This article is greatly under-referenced. For a school that is over 150 years old, the history section is not even three lines long. I am also concerned that the article is not written neutrally, and is written too promotionally. Given this, I cannot assess the article beyond the "Start" level.

I am assessing this article as "Mid" importance for the project, though this is provisional. There is a long list of notable alumni, including one of, if not the, most important 20th century writer in the English language, paired with the claim that one of his most important novels was based on his time here. This should be able to promote this article to "High" importance in the project, but lacking sufficient referencing, it needs to stay at Mid importance.

If this article undergoes substantial improvement, please request a reassessment at the school's project. I wish the editors best of luck in improving this article. LonelyBeacon (talk) 16:22, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Class Names
Could somebody add the class names and the names of the years? i.e. Xavier / Rhetoric, 2 Syntax, Grammar etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.134.11.112 (talk) 08:23, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

See below the year and class naming structures and roughly the years they were used. This needs to be expanded to include the junior school and the dates of the changes etc. Financefactz

Possibly also worthwhile mentioning about the naming system for the Junior Cup C and D rugby teams - the Army and the Navy

History Research
Hello fellow Wikipedians. The general consensus on this talk page is that the history section leaves a lot to be desired. Following this, I have made an appointment to talk to the schools chief archivist and historian. It seems that there are many editors of this page that are or once were pupils of the school and it astounds me that this step hasn't been taken already. I will be sure to keep you all updated and as soon as I have sufficient unbiased information, I will be sure to let you know. Danbisset (talk) 09:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

WP Ireland priority rating
I see that a non-member of the project changed the prio, and was properly reverted. Indeed most individual schools are merely Notable (i.e. Low) but input welcome on whether Belvedere might be one of a small number to meet Mid? SeoR (talk) 19:00, 2 June 2020 (UTC)